Pistol Licence Application

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Is that a legal requirement civ, or just the Garda code of good practise?

civdef

Good practice, as I understand it.

According to the people at the MRC, approval is imminent (fortnight or so) for their range.

Flattop 15

AFIK they only must give you written reason of denial of a cert on already established certs.
Would suggest you try and get to meet your super in person and find out exactly what his problem is;laying out the facts about the law and ranges etc.If he still wants to be thick about it,by not seeing you or whatever I suggest a personal letter suggesting that you will be taking legal action against him.
I would say yes you do have a good case ,as you are already issued liscenses have safe grounds to shoot on,and have done so.He would want to have a more stronger reason than a non existant requirement or his interpertation of the law.Expect a long enough time before it gets to court,they are great at stalling,and obfusticating the course of justice.
This sounds to me like a stalling tactic until the CJB or somthing wose comes into play,as I am getting stonewalled as well in just no reply to any answerd questions on my part.
Possibility is too your local Super has his eyes on the Park and doesnt want anything to upset his career climb in later years. :rolleyes: So possibly a judical review or threat thereof might influence his precived career prospects.

Umiq88

A body which combines the two

Since when are polls out of 112.50% theres 3 things @ 37.50%

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Eight votes cast (one vote can select several options at once). 3/8 = 37.5%

Gun Shy

A governing body for All Shooting Diciplines

Part of Des Croftons address to the Dail


Furthermore, there is often no explanation for the refusal of an application despite that the Circuit Court has already held that superintendents of the Garda Síochána must give written reasons for refusals of licences. Chapter 40 of the Garda code demands that written reasons be given and goes so far as to stipulate that these reasons should be adequate to allow the applicant to know the threshold he or she must reach in order to persuade the superintendent of his or her eligibility.

Well worth the read in full (Civdefs earlier posting)

Criminal Justice Bill 2004: Presentations. Wednesday, 23 February 2005

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS



http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebat...&Node=H2&Page=3

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

There is a saying however - "Never attribute to malice that which is adaquately explained by ignorance"
Remember, gardai get no training for the licencing job, the media is screaming that pistols are causing huge amounts of gun crime, and he's probably got no idea of what target shooting is like. There's no direction on where the law's going from head office or the DoJ, but he know's it's his neck on the block if he messes up. So recalitrance and intransigence are to be expected. Just keep trying, but don't be belligerent about it. Bring photos of the range, show him one of the bullseye targets you'll be using (if they're humanoid silhouettes, maybe not), show him the details of the gun, and so on.

Sparks , the Garda that I have to deal with has absolutely no interest in Shooting sports , beleive me i have tried the nice softly softly approach , explaining the different diciplines etc, but he just doesnt listen , not interested and has his own opinions on us "criminals" because I firmly beleive that he thinks that we are all criminals . Unfortunately for me this A***hole is the one that I have to deal with , at this point I am getting extremely annoyed at the way that we ( Shooters ) are being treated by the DOJ and the Gardai , and I for one am P*****off . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Its time we all stood together and put a common well constructed group together to represent Shooting Sports here against the draconian garda policy and antiquated firearms acts , and get involved politically if need be .
150,000 licence holders here all have a vote , I dont remember any government winning by that margin ever . If all shooters got together to protect their sport , and forgot about their own small group adgenda's we might get somewhere , and i know your response , it will never happen , all different groups with different requirements .... Bull . It is going to happen soon enough where Irish shooting sports are going to be under attack and the little groups wont stand a chance , we will loose everything.....

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Ammoman wrote:

Sparks , the Garda that I have to deal with has absolutely no interest in Shooting sports , beleive me i have tried the nice softly softly approach , explaining the different diciplines etc, but he just doesnt listen , not interested and has his own opinions on us "criminals" because I firmly beleive that he thinks that we are all criminals . Unfortunately for me this A***hole is the one that I have to deal with , at this point I am getting extremely annoyed at the way that we ( Shooters ) are being treated by the DOJ and the Gardai , and I for one am P*****off . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

It sounds like you've gotten one of the bad apples allright There may not be any way forward but to resort to legal action. On the only positive note I can see, if relations are that bad, you won't have to worry about losing a friend in the process!

Its time we all stood together and put a common well constructed group together to represent Shooting Sports here against the draconian garda policy and antiquated firearms acts , and get involved politically if need be .
150,000 licence holders here all have a vote , I dont remember any government winning by that margin ever . If all shooters got together to protect their sport , and forgot about their own small group adgenda's we might get somewhere , and i know your response , it will never happen , all different groups with different requirements .... Bull . It is going to happen soon enough where Irish shooting sports are going to be under attack and the little groups wont stand a chance , we will loose everything.....

Do I think it will never happen? No. As the NRPAI found out with fullbore, if there's a need, it'll be filled. But I do think that unless we do it right, it'll cause more grief than it solves. What's needed is an independent lobbying group. Not tied to any one sporting discipline, or to hunting, or to the IFA. One whose agenda is public domain, which is formed as a legal company so that its members have a third party (the courts) to hold it to it's own rules, and a board whose members are elected fairly by the members of the group. It's got to be sufficiently moderate that noone is reluctant about supporting it, but sufficiently assertive that it will resort to legal action where required. It cannot be seen in the same light as the US's NRA are seen over here. The NRA can claim to be the most effective lobby group in the world all they want; but their image here is something that few moderates want to be anywhere near. And make no mistake - the polarised believers may be the ones having the debate, but it's the mostly silent moderates who make up the majority that decides who wins...

Now what are the odds of that happening? Depressingly slim. I'd foresee political machinations between the various large and small groups right up until the axe is dropped, and then, in finest Irish tradition, fifty years in pubs crying into pints of beer about how they would have had the earth, moon and stars, if it hadn't been for that bastard So-and-So in the Such-and-Such association, who ruined it for everyone by being so recalcitrant. Which, sadly, is what a fair few have been doing for the past fifty years while others got off their behinds and worked. And now, we've got shotgun shooters bringing home ISSF gold medals, air rifle juniors winning the British Open and shooting MQS scores routinely, new rifle ranges, commonwealth medals and so on and so forth. Stuff that's solid, real, and which won't vanish with the flick of a Minister's pen!

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Has anyone gone down the road of a judicial review ? What sort of costs am i looking at ?

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks or other moderators ???

Why has the Poll been closed down , when i set it up , it was to remain open for one month , what happened did you not like the way that the results were going ? another thing that i noticed with it was that A vote was put in under my name that I did not make . After asking the Question i would hardly vote against it . Quite obviously you have a large amount of control over the site , even enough to change the possible answers of the poll itself , but you shouldnt be able to stop the rest of the members from voting if you dont like the way that vote might end up .

We live in a democracy but running the site in this way is definitely not democratic . Its amazing to think that the site was set up for people to share their ideas and views on certain topics but after this episode , what other sensorship have the moderators levied on the members . The fact that you can change details on a poll that I created , there is nothing to stop you from changing anything that anyone puts up on the site....

Very disapointed.....

civdef

Simple, it was totally off topic to the thread. A new thread was split off from this one dealing with that very issue, hoever it's impossible to migrate polls.

No big conspiracy here, sorry to diappoint.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

civdef wrote:

Simple, it was totally off topic to the thread. A new thread was split off from this one dealing with that very issue, hoever it's impossible to migrate polls.

No big conspiracy here, sorry to diappoint.

That doesnt explain how a vote was put up against my name , without my consent , or how the wording of the question was changed . If someone puts up a comment it should be left alone , not altererd in any way . If the poll was out of context you or whoever altered it initally could have set it up again in another thread , and at the very least should have put up a comment as to what had happened and why .

There is no guarantee that you dont alter other threads to suit your opinions , after all we , the ordinary members dont know when or if you change something , there is no log . Inappropiate behavoiur or certain explicit content i would agree should be removed but noted in its place , the reason why it was removed. this is something that the moderators here should look at... :mad:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Ammoman, if you read back through the thread (post #18), you'll notice that when I changed the poll's options so that they weren't so circular, I pointed it out. If you're putting up a poll, having the answers be "No, Yes - A, Yes -B, Yes" isn't very helpful because noone will know what the heck a vote for Yes means.

As to altering threads to suit our opinions, that's precisely what this forum was set up to avoid. Edited posts are marked, and our powers as moderators are strictly limited. We can't tell who a poster is, we can't change posts undetected as you're suggesting (edited posts are flagged), and while we can delete posts if necessary, complaints can be made by anyone on the Feedback or Admin forums and the other moderators and the administrators then act as a jury. None of them would know any of us personally, and none of them are involved in target shooting, so it's like an independent ombudsman setup. Which is a darn sight more than you'll see in any governing body!

Lastly, the forum charter is rather clear on this point:

If you have a problem with an action of the moderators, PM them or take it up on the Admin forum.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

It sounds like you've gotten one of the bad apples allright There may not be any way forward but to resort to legal action. On the only positive note I can see, if relations are that bad, you won't have to worry about losing a friend in the process!

OK , I have been unable to contact the superintendant for the last 3 weeks , i have now sent him a registered letter , lets see what he makes of that... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Flattop 15

Ammoman wrote:

OK , I have been unable to contact the superintendant for the last 3 weeks , i have now sent him a registered letter , lets see what he makes of that... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Hope you sent it with return proof of delivery,otherwise it will become "lost" .Note also that this registerd letter thing,is about as much use nowadays as an ashtray on a motorbike in proving that somone got a registerd letters contents.
[1] there must be signed proof of delivery FROM THE PERSON IT IS DELIVERD TO[IE your super] Anyone can sign for a registerd letter,but then there is no written proof that the recipient recived it.
[2] He can refuse it,which means it will be returned to you
[3] he can ignore it and it will be returned to your main post office with a note left at the address to come and collect it,within 31 days.Guess what will be done there?[see point 2]
The only way to make belt&braces double damn sure that he gets this letter ,is for you to hire a process server,who will go in and literally hand the Super these documents and then swear a court affidavit as to who,what when where he served this person this letter.BTW this service can be done anywhere,not just the Garda station,under EU law on Sundays as well.I know it sounds drastic,but it sounds like you are dealing with a compleate A££$^LE
anyway,so if he doesnt reply on the normal route,maybe a solicitors letter deliverd this route might do somthing for you.Drastic measures...but drastic means.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Flattop 15 wrote:

Hope you sent it with return proof of delivery,otherwise it will become "lost" .Note also that this registerd letter thing,is about as much use nowadays as an ashtray on a motorbike in proving that somone got a registerd letters contents.
[1] there must be signed proof of delivery FROM THE PERSON IT IS DELIVERD TO[IE your super] Anyone can sign for a registerd letter,but then there is no written proof that the recipient recived it.
[2] He can refuse it,which means it will be returned to you
[3] he can ignore it and it will be returned to your main post office with a note left at the address to come and collect it,within 31 days.Guess what will be done there?[see point 2]
The only way to make belt&braces double damn sure that he gets this letter ,is for you to hire a process server,who will go in and literally hand the Super these documents and then swear a court affidavit as to who,what when where he served this person this letter.BTW this service can be done anywhere,not just the Garda station,under EU law on Sundays as well.I know it sounds drastic,but it sounds like you are dealing with a compleate A££$^LE
anyway,so if he doesnt reply on the normal route,maybe a solicitors letter deliverd this route might do somthing for you.Drastic measures...but drastic means.

He has recieved it , and has contacted me , he says that he will be in touch again this week....

fingers crossed...