IRA arms: are they contributing to the rise in gun crime?

MT

We know that the IRA itself contributes to crime directly through involvement in racketeering, smuggling, robbery, etc. This illegal activity has been confirmed at various times by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the Garda Commissioner, the PSNI chief constable, the IMC and much press investigation. We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists – of what most have long suspected, that Sinn Fein avails of these proceeds of crime to fund offices, election campaigns and so on.

However, what I’d like to discuss is whether the network of criminals employed by the IRA is supplied with arms from its weapons cache. There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA. But did their weapons originate in one of the paramilitary group’s bunkers?

I have always suspected that the seemingly unending increase in gun crime in Northern Ireland over the last decade has been the result of arms ‘leakage’ from the paramilitaries. Indeed, it should have been entirely predictable had the subject been given greater thought. In an era when the various private armies were moving away from ‘armed struggle’ and into organised crime instead, were they really likely to forego the use of weapons previously marked for offensive use only.

However, it now seems to me that the rush to the riches flowing from crime has been so fast and all consuming that weapons once used solely by members of the IRA, UVF, INLA, etc. have been finding there way into the hands of ‘ordinary decent criminals’ at an alarming rate. The connection behind this flow of weapons to the broader criminal fraternity is obvious enough. The IRA, ever keen to expand its black economy, has doubtless needed more racketeers, robbers, murderers and so on than the organisation can find through ongoing recruitment and training. So, it has ‘reached out’ to the crime gangs of Belfast, Dublin and other cities. It seems that these groups have been given the arms required for more intensive crime sprees and hence the steady rise in armed robberies, never mind the increase in bloody internecine feuding between rival groups on the streets of Dublin.

For that matter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the IRA was found to be trading in arms. Yet another murky way to make fortune from the misery of others. Maybe that’s why the republican movement finds decommissioning such an unpalatable prospect. What businessman destroys some of his most lucrative stock?

To me, this spread of guns to society’s most undesirable elements and the shocking rise in the accompanying shootings and bloodletting is another reason why these arms should have been put beyond use years ago. Now, as they’re finding their way into a wider and ever more diverse array of thugs and murderers, decommissioning is surely more pressing than ever. The last thing we need if for gun crime to spiral out of control leaving Irish cities as violent as Detroit or LA.

If you’re ever unfortunate enough to be burgled at gunpoint or to witness a shooting, just ask yourself where those guns came from. Then consider the fact that there are a number of Europe’s largest illegal arms dumps dotted about the countryside. Who’s to say they haven’t been leaking like sieves, and will continue to do so until their grim contents are finally destroyed?

gurramok

Its very naieve of you to link the much of the rise in gun crime to paramilitaries. I have stated on this board before that the drug gangs who source their OWN weapons are a bigger danger to the security of this state than an organisation on ceasefire who might or might not be involved in criminal activities.
Its a legacy of our wonderful Govt and Garda Siochana that the drug gangs are richer and more powerful as the years have rolled on, they can afford their own weapons and use them without little retribution.
Only in Limerick has there been speculation that arms from paramilitaries are traded with criminal gangs, in Dublin its a different story. Up here they have more firepower than any paramilitary organisation, a small % of their arms could be sourced from paramilitaries.
These guys have had arsenals growing from their drug dealing profits for over 20 years that their wealth and firepower supercedes paramilitaries in that they hold fear and terror over whole communities hence the lack of convictions for perpetrators in the courts.
I live in one of those communities, i for one keep myself to myself and would not dare report anything suspicious for fear for my life.
Its a different situation up north than down here. Up north there is much more evidence of paramilitaries on a grand scale as a % of population unlike the south.

Heliotrope

Also on the Limerick thing i read that a Limerick gang had "hired out" a PIRA bomb expert to rig a bomb to a car.The bomb failed to explode thus the Gardaí were able to see it was the type of device used by the PIRA.

AmenToThat

As far as Im aware most illegal firearms thats enter the country are brought in with drugs shipments.

Fenian

it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd. The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA. God knows the Gardaí are doing nothing about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.

hawkmoon269

Do we even need to ask the question? Of course the IRA contribute weapons to criminal elements, they are themselves criminals FFS.

The IRA are gangsters, murderers, terrorists and criminals, end of f***king story. Anyone who hasn't seen that by now needs their heads examined.

hawkmoon269

Fenian wrote:

it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd. The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA. God knows the Gardaí are doing nothing about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.

You bloody idiot.

The IRA are criminals anyway, first off.

Secondly, of course the increase in gun crime is related to the IRA.

hawkmoon269

hawkmoon269 wrote:

You bloody idiot.

The IRA are criminals anyway, first off.

Secondly, of course the increase in gun crime is related to the IRA.

Temp ban for that.
Attack the post(which in this case would be pretty easy) and not the poster

bonkey

Fenian wrote:

it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals,

The PIRA being such fine, upstanding members of societ....hang on, are we talking about the same terrorists here?

To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd.

One has guns they no longer actively use...allegfedly. The other shows an increase in gun-use. Both have criminal elements.

Yerah - no correlation there. You're right...completely absurd.

I suppose Gerry McCabe wasn't shot with an IRA weapon either. Or was his death just part of some unchanging "background" level of terrorist-backed gun-crime which hasn't increased at all and so doesn't really count???

The only reason why scum bags in Dublin and other places are running around with guns is because there is no fear of retribution from the IRA.

So the increase in gun crime is because they used to be scared of the 'RA? You're telling me that up until 15 years ago (or thereabouts) The IRA were policing criminal activity on the entire island and dealing with any criminals who dared to lay their hands on weapons cause that was the IRA's job?

So, in effect, the increase in gun-crime is presumably linked to the Peaver Process and the cease-fire?

I wouldn't be surprised if citizens of this country start blaming the rise of teenage pregnancy on the IRA.

Well, if they do, I'm sure you can argue strongly and coherently against that one too and set us all straight.

jc

jank

Another rant at the IRA, no surprise here.

Its probably safe to assume that there is some cause and reason to blame the IRA for some small % of guns gone into criminal hands but the vast majority of guns have been aquired by the criminals themselves.

Proof to me is that is if the "Great and honourable" Mr McDowell had any figures that linked the rise of gun crime to the IRA then he would be shouting it from the rooftops everyday!

Victor

I think theres mix and match involved. The IRA are known to have stolen and / or imported shotguns and handguns over the last few years. Both are ideal for involvement in "ordinary decent crime", especially armed robbery, turf protection, extortion and assination, with AK-47s and Semtex being less useful in these cases. These weapons are believed to have trickled down.

The absence of IRA military activity has contributed to "ordinary decent psychos" (inside and outside the IRA) engaging in other criminal activity.

murphaph

The IRA and their SF mates are criminal scum, like all gangs.

axer

MT wrote:

We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists – of what most have long suspected, that Sinn Fein avails of these proceeds of crime to fund offices, election campaigns and so on.

confirmation...hmm...strong word...kinda sounds like what he said *must* be right 'cos he said so.

MT wrote:

However, what I’d like to discuss is whether the network of criminals employed by the IRA is supplied with arms from its weapons cache. There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA. But did their weapons originate in one of the paramilitary group’s bunkers?

So because he was *supposedly* previously employed by the IRA means the IRA were involved

MT wrote:

I have always suspected that the seemingly unending increase in gun crime in Northern Ireland over the last decade has been the result of arms ‘leakage’ from the paramilitaries. Indeed, it should have been entirely predictable had the subject been given greater thought. In an era when the various private armies were moving away from ‘armed struggle’ and into organised crime instead, were they really likely to forego the use of weapons previously marked for offensive use only.

I'd kinda agree with you there. Alot of these involved in paramilitaries (mostly newer members) are not in it for the "goal" of the paramilitary army. I think the sooner ALL paramilitary armies are disbanded the better it will be for the whole of the country.

MT wrote:

However, it now seems to me that the rush to the riches flowing from crime has been so fast and all consuming that weapons once used solely by members of the IRA, UVF, INLA, etc. have been finding there way into the hands of ‘ordinary decent criminals’ at an alarming rate. The connection behind this flow of weapons to the broader criminal fraternity is obvious enough. The IRA, ever keen to expand its black economy, has doubtless needed more racketeers, robbers, murderers and so on than the organisation can find through ongoing recruitment and training. So, it has ‘reached out’ to the crime gangs of Belfast, Dublin and other cities. It seems that these groups have been given the arms required for more intensive crime sprees and hence the steady rise in armed robberies, never mind the increase in bloody internecine feuding between rival groups on the streets of Dublin.

A bit one sided there - aren't we? You meant to say "paramilitary groups in northern Ireland, ever keen to expand..." instead of "The IRA, ever keen to expand..."

MT wrote:

For that matter, I wouldn’t be surprised if the IRA was found to be trading in arms. Yet another murky way to make fortune from the misery of others. Maybe that’s why the republican movement finds decommissioning such an unpalatable prospect. What businessman destroys some of his most lucrative stock?

Again...a little one sided...

MT wrote:

To me, this spread of guns to society’s most undesirable elements and the shocking rise in the accompanying shootings and bloodletting is another reason why these arms should have been put beyond use years ago. Now, as they’re finding their way into a wider and ever more diverse array of thugs and murderers, decommissioning is surely more pressing than ever. The last thing we need if for gun crime to spiral out of control leaving Irish cities as violent as Detroit or LA.

Yep. Gang culture is starting to kick off in Ireland (well, its fairly rampant already but is getting worse), which needs to be hit hard now.

MT wrote:

If you’re ever unfortunate enough to be burgled at gunpoint or to witness a shooting, just ask yourself where those guns came from. Then consider the fact that there are a number of Europe’s largest illegal arms dumps dotted about the countryside. Who’s to say they haven’t been leaking like sieves, and will continue to do so until their grim contents are finally destroyed?

I am more inclined to think that alot of the guns comming in are comming in with drugs shipments and are imported by other methods than arms dumps.

murphaph wrote:

The IRA and their SF mates are criminal scum, like all gangs.

Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.

I think that all paramilitary groups in northern Ireland (UVF, LVF, UDA, the Red Hand Defenders, the Orange Volunteers, PIRA, RIRA, CIRA and the INLA) have contributed to the rise in gun crime BUT I think that there are many gangs operating in Ireland importing guns that are contributing more to the problem than those paramilitaries.

FTA69

Up here they have more firepower than any paramilitary organisation, a small % of their arms could be sourced from paramilitaries.

That is untrue. While they may be well armed they do not have the same amount or calibre of weaponry. IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control, those who have used IRA weapons for self-gain or those who have sold IRA weapons in the past have been executed by that organisation. Weaponry is not an issue treated lightly. There are no Republican weapons in the hands of criminals.

There has been press comment that the gang leader of the post office raiders shot dead in Lusk by the Gardai was previously in the employ of the IRA.

To analyse this, how could the Lusk operation be the responsibility of the IRA? It has been opined that the IRA hired these men to commit a robbery but why would these already hardened criminals need this factor? Why not just rob it for themselves. Secondly, the weapon in their possesion was a handgun, since these men were well known criminals I don't think one of those would be too hard to find in the Dublin underworld. The claim is unproven, nonsense.

Also on the Limerick thing i read that a Limerick gang had "hired out" a PIRA bomb expert to rig a bomb to a car.The bomb failed to explode thus the Gardaí were able to see it was the type of device used by the PIRA.

The incident you are reffering to involved a crude, pipe bomb which anybody with the most basic knowledge could construct. There was no IRA involvement, "expert" or otherwise. The police blamed the CIRA for the incident I believed.

it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

The CIRA aren't in the possesion of the sort of weaponry being employed by criminals in Limerick, neither are they involved in the drug trade.

county

are you i the ira?

FTA69

No.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control

You know I seem to recall mentioning this in the many discussions on the McCabe killers.
If everything is under such tight rigid centralised contol as you put it, how come IRA hq denied that operation for a few days?

Villain

Earthman wrote:

You know I seem to recall mentioning this in the many discussions on the McCabe killers.
If everything is under such tight rigid centralised contol as you put it, how come IRA hq denied that operation for a few days?

How about another new McCabe thread? Only joking earthman.

Yea I don't think the IRA are as tightly controlled as FTA69 thinks, I'm sure some IRA arms have found their way into the hands of hard criminals but I don't think we should believe that the majority of arms used on our streets every week come from the RA. I'm sure it's very easy to have the buddies throw in a few arms along with the kilo's of coke.

FTA69

The bulk of weapons are concentrated in a few large arms dumps, these have now been inspected by the IICD. Individual units do have control over a small amount of weapons in their area but every weapon has to be accounted for regularly, the IRA leadership have an inventory of every gun in its possesion. If it went missing it would soon be known.

On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.

Do you have a source for that?

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

The bulk of weapons are concentrated in a few large arms dumps, these have now been inspected by the IICD. Individual units do have control over a small amount of weapons in their area but every weapon has to be accounted for regularly, the IRA leadership have an inventory of every gun in its possesion. If it went missing it would soon be known.

On another note, it is important to remember that every gun has an individual ballistic record and out of the hundreds of guns seized by the police from criminals not one of them has been traced back to an IRA operation.

I'd like to see a source for that too.

murphaph

axer wrote:

Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.

I only vote because with our (in my opinion stupid) PR system I like to run through all the other candidates and make sure I don't give any preference for SF. I hate them. I hate sleaze-bag Gerry Armani and Martin-sit-ee-ation-McGuinness. I'd respect them more if they'd just admit what they are (members or at least former members of the IRA at the highest level). People have voted for them because they offer a (perceived) departure from the bland mix that goes for political parties here. They do more 'work' on the ground than anyone else. Up north they're well known as the folks to ask about which benefits you're 'entitled' to. A pack of wasters the lot of 'em. I hate Ahern and FF in general, but could anyone seriously imagine the economic 'management' we'd see under a SF government? You think it's a banana republic now??? Haha, just wait!

FTA69 wrote:

IRA arms are not loosely dispersed, they are subject to a tightly centralised and rigid control, those who have used IRA weapons for self-gain or those who have sold IRA weapons in the past have been executed by that organisation

Don't you mean murdered?

Rovi

FTA69 wrote:

There are no Republican weapons in the hands of criminals.

.

This thread is not about SF

Splitting and moving the OT stuff to the other thread

Mighty_Mouse

We have now also had confirmation by Paul Williams – one of the country’s most pre-eminent crime journalists

Oh Jesus! :eek:

As for the rest of the post..........oh Jesus! :eek:

FTA69

Do you have a source for that?

No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure sources. Put it this way, if one of the many pistols and sub-machine guns seized by the police from criminals had a Republican ballistics record it would be front-page new all over the country. Do you recall such an occurence?

You are presenting opinion as fact then.
Clearly state that it is your opinion when you are talking about something upon which you have no facts.
Sometimes it is obvious that what a poster states is just an opinion.
In this case you did not make it obvious.

FTA69

Fair point Earthman. To rephrase my original post;

If the IRA were really supplying lots of weapons to criminals then surely it would stand that there would be some sort of link established by now? Hundreds of weapons have been seized from criminals in the past few years and I personally have not heard of a ballistic link being established between Republican and criminal guns.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

Fair point Earthman. To rephrase my original post;

If the IRA were really supplying lots of weapons to criminals then surely it would stand that there would be some sort of link established by now? Hundreds of weapons have been seized from criminals in the past few years and I personally have not heard of a ballistic link being established between Republican and criminal guns.

The firearm would have had to have been discharged during a republican crime and contrary to the movies not all discharged projectiles are able to give up identifying straif marks because they are often so badly mangled upon impact (of course shotgun pellets reveal nothing anyway!). There may well have been republican bullet firing firearms or shotguns seized from non-republican criminals and we just have no way of knowing.

rmacm

Fenian wrote:

it's only CIRA and other dissenters that would even think of leaking their arms to criminals, also it's pretty well known that the Limerick drug gangs are well contected to RIRA and CIRA, which in fact are nothing more than drug dealing gangs themselves.

To even think that the rise of gun crime has anything to do with the IRA is absurd.

I don't agree with this. First of all why may I ask why is it beyond the realm of possibilty that criminal gangs have not sourced weapons from the IRA. I agree that the RIRA & CIRA are nothing but drug dealing gangs and probably more likely to provide weapons for other gangs it doesn't preclude the possibilty that the IRA have also done the same. Its undeniable that some members of the IRA have become involved in criminal activity so there is the possibility that some of the IRA's weapons have found their way into the hands of drug dealers.

I kind've agree with the last part of your post though. Criminal gangs definately have the resources to buy and import their own arms, so there is unlikely to be a huge correlation between the rise in gun crime and the move of certain elements of the IRA to criminality.

Cheers
Rory

FTA69

we just have no way of knowing.

Then why are you of the belief that IRA weapons are in the hands of criminals? It is true that nothing is definite but a high percentage of bullets fired leave a ballistic reading and out of the hundreds of guns seized surely a link would have been established?

First of all why may I ask why is it beyond the realm of possibilty that criminal gangs have not sourced weapons from the IRA.

Because the IRA maintains a tight control over its weapons, it is bound constitutionally. As much as some would like to believe, it is not a profit-driven loose association of criminals. Also, why would criminals need to source handguns and sawn-offs from Republicans when they can get them themselves easily?

there is the possibility that some of the IRA's weapons have found their way into the hands of drug dealers.

The only contact drug-dealers had with Republican weapons was when they were on the recieving end of them. The IRA is not involved in the drug trade, it never was and never will be. Most guns in the hands of criminals are either stolen shotguns or guns brought in through drugs shipments from Holland or Spain. Dealers have their own supply which can be proved by the haul of Scorpion automatic pistols found in a consignment of drugs by police.