IRA arms: are they contributing to the rise in gun crime?

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

Then why are you of the belief that IRA weapons are in the hands of criminals?

Because the IRA, being a prescribed organisation in the United Kingdom and Ireland are criminals on both sides of the border, not glory covered fredom fighters. If you mean non-republican criminals then I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Neither of us has proof so we talk about our opinions.

FTA69 wrote:

It is true that nothing is definite but a high percentage of bullets fired leave a ballistic reading and out of the hundreds of guns seized surely a link would have been established?

Perhaps the IRA are cleverer than that. Perhaps they have a cache of weapons to be used as a threat in armed robberies etc. that are not intended to be discharged and a cache of weapons reserved for shooting people and maybe they keep these to themselves. Also, you keep talking about bullets but given that a large (I don't have figures just anecdotal evidence) number of firearms used are shotguns there will be no tracing them through ballistics.

rmacm

FTA69 wrote:

Because the IRA maintains a tight control over its weapons, it is bound constitutionally. As much as some would like to believe, it is not a profit-driven loose association of criminals. Also, why would criminals need to source handguns and sawn-offs from Republicans when they can get them themselves easily?

Entire countries are bound by constitutions to do certian things it doesn't neccessarily mean that they do. While the entire IRA may not be an association of criminals it doesn't mean that certain elements of it are not involved in criminality. The IRA is made up of humans who are like it or not courruptable and not above using the IRA's resources for their own gain. You do have a fair point about criminals not needing to source their weapons from the IRA when they have the ability to get them themselves. But then again where's the harm in having multiple sources for your guns (I'm probably being a bit frivilious here but I do have a point).

Cheers
Rory

Thread reopened .

The off topic stuff has been sent to the bin.

No more thread spoiling please. If anybody wants to stray onto subjects other than the title of this thread open a new thread please.
Otherwise your contributions will be binned on sight.

Now back on topic.

mycroft

Perhaps the IRA are cleverer than that. Perhaps they have a cache of weapons to be used as a threat in armed robberies etc. that are not intended to be discharged and a cache of weapons reserved for shooting people and maybe they keep these to themselves. Also, you keep talking about bullets but given that a large (I don't have figures just anecdotal evidence) number of firearms used are shotguns there will be no tracing them through ballistics.

Oh they are, in 1999 IRA gun runners were arrested by the FBI in Florida, they were trying to source "clean" handguns for use in punishment shootings in the North. Thats 1999. On Ceasefire for half a decade.

As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

Furthermore this blastic stuff is clobbers. You've have to be able to trace a gun used by a criminal to a previous shooting by an IRA man. I sincerely doubt the IRA are giving out weapons used by volunteers in actions to criminals. Their Quartermasters are too cute hoors and the pr would be woeful.

FTA69 wrote:

No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure source

FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

Oh they are, in 1999 IRA gun runners were arrested by the FBI in Florida, they were trying to source "clean" handguns for use in punishment shootings in the North. Thats 1999. On Ceasefire for half a decade.

Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

Furthermore this blastic stuff is clobbers. You've have to be able to trace a gun used by a criminal to a previous shooting by an IRA man. I sincerely doubt the IRA are giving out weapons used by volunteers in actions to criminals. Their Quartermasters are too cute hoors and the pr would be woeful.

So you doubt it happens. Is there any evidence, linky, corroboration to say it does happen?

FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.

So valid a strategy, you just used here in your post?

FTA69

FTA my boy you're learning slowly, now you're passing unsubstantiated opinions as fact, and backtracking when called on it.

Well Mycroft my son, as has been pointed out to you by A Dub you have engaged in similar antics yourself.

As for the IRA less than six months ago the murder in the green lizard pub, prime suspect, under arrest senior IRA officer, who took offence at a kickboxer and apparently in a few minutes the gun was in his hand.

A senior IRA officer? The man was dissasociated from the IRA for years. How can they be held responsible for what a former member did?

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

As I mentioned in a few weeks back
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/413572.stm

§ IRA In July 1999 an Irish postal worker uncovered a smuggling operation that involved guns mailed from the United States to members of the Irish Republican Army. An ensuing investigation by British police and the FBI intercepted forty-six handguns and 600 rounds of ammunition, all legally purchased at gun dealerships in Florida. Siobhan Browne, a suspect whom the Irish press dubbed the IRA "Mata Hari," told authorities that a gun-shop owner in Florida agreed not to file required ATF paperwork for a fee of $50 per gun. Another suspect, Conor Claxton, who confessed that the weapons were intended for possible use against Northern Ireland's police, said the IRA chose South Florida because of its lax gun laws and its abundant gun shops.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20021202&s=montero

Linky? Evidence? Anything to corroborate your story?

And again;

the chief suspect in the case is "a well-known IRA man who doubles as a Sinn Féin election activist and has worked for TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh"

http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCategoryID=177&iArticleID=42489

From here

So you doubt it happens. Is there any evidence, linky, corroboration to say it does happen?

Well FTA assures us (and that does mean alot) that they're under tight control, we know that the IRA are not above fraternizing with a criminal element and have been smuggling clean weapons in since the ceasefire, and have a certain moral flexibility when it comes to dealing with laws.

So valid a strategy, you just used here in your post?

These are both instances I have mentioned previously on this forum, and now I have links care to address the points now. Instead of accusing me of making stuff up that I've previously raised on this forum.

The theory about Quartermasters comes from reading Eamonn Mc Canns killing rage, the logic about not releasing a weapon which could be traced back to another IRA related crime is common sense.

FTA69 wrote:

Well Mycroft my son, as has been pointed out to you by A Dub you have engaged in similar antics yourself.

Yes But I'm able to support what I've previously stated on this forum. Saying I'm making stuff up is, unjust.

FTA69 wrote:

No, and to be honest I'm not going to trawl through the internet in search of obscure source

I found my first two links in mere seconds on google, hardly an obscure source, unless you're making stuff up again.

A senior IRA officer? The man was dissasociated from the IRA for years. How can they be held responsible for what a former member did?

Ah yes the plausible denability, sure we got rid of that psychopath years ago. One has to wonder about the IRA screening process how they can't spot em when recruiting them, but you'll release em back into the wild after you find out he's a psychopath. Yes he was dissasociated but the only word we have on that is the RA and they never lie.

county

Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.
where in the western world would you see 5 terrorists democratly elected,shame on the irish electorate

axer

county wrote:

Thats a bit strong worded about SF - a political party with 5 TDs (elected by the people of the Rep. of Ireland) in the Dail.
where in the western world would you see 5 terrorists democratly elected,shame on the irish electorate

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD (Highest number of votes in Cavan-Monaghan), Arthur Morgan TD, Aengus Ó Snodaigh TD, Seán Crowe TD (highest number of first pref votes dublin south-west) and Martin Ferris TD (highest number of votes in Kerry-North) are all terriorists? not to mention Mary Lou McDonald MEP? I guess some people just dont agree with you.

But back on topic.

mycroft wrote:

As I mentioned in a few weeks back
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/413572.stm

Interesting read on the story.
http://newtimesbpb.com/issues/2000-01-27/news_1.html

mycroft wrote:

the chief suspect in the case is "a well-known IRA man who doubles as a Sinn Féin election activist and has worked for TD Aengus Ó Snodaigh"

You forgot to add this before the quote "According to Sunday Independent journalist Jim Cusack"

Also is this thread really about -> well the PIRA or CIRA or RIRA have the means, so they must be doing it!?

I see the ex FBI man that axer links to uses the same logic as Amen to that ie that it went on 100's of years ago so ergo a similar fight is ok today

"I'm in favor of a united Ireland," he says. "Did George Washington and the American Revolutionary people have to use violence? When you're dealing with the British, they aren't giving up their possessions without a struggle.

Theres lots of things that were acceptable in the time of George Washington that most definitely aren't today.
Importing Arms and explosives illegally to murder children in Warrington most definitely isn't as isnt the spanish inquisition or the burning of witches or whatever depending on how far back you want to go.

That Former FBI agent doesnt condone violence though

Again this is rather all off topic and unless the next posters here are on topic ie discussing what the thread title allows or the control or lack thereof that the IRA have on their arms etc then the posts will be binned

If you want to discuss the historics of the IRA campaign,its justification or not and its validity today or anything in that line- Go open another thread

axer

Earthman wrote:

I see the ex FBI man that axer links to uses the same logic as Amen to that ie that it went on 100's of years ago so ergo a similar fight is ok todayTheres lots of things that were acceptable in the time of George Washington that most definitely aren't today.
Importing Arms and explosives illegally to murder children in Warrington most definitely isn't as isnt the spanish inquisition or the burning of witches or whatever depending on how far back you want to go.

That Former FBI agent doesnt condone violence though

Again this is rather all off topic and unless the next posters here are on topic ie discussing what the thread title allows or the control or lack thereof that the IRA have on their arms etc then the posts will be binned

If you want to discuss the historics of the IRA campaign,its justification or not and its validity today or anything in that line- Go open another thread

What are you talking about? Did you even read the whole thing? How is it off topic? It is about alleged IRA members gun-running.

axer

axer wrote:

What are you talking about? Did you even read the whole thing? How is it off topic? It is about alleged IRA members gun-running.

I was referring to anything preceding that is off topic and I want no more of it.
I also wont put up with you a poster insinuating that I am moderating something I havent read...

gurramok

There is a piece in IOS today about the firearm murder rate in Ireland since 1998.

'Of 83 killings committed with firearms in Ireland since 1998, only 14 convictions have been secured, according to DOJ.'

Thats a 83% chance of not getting caught if you kill someone with a firearm.

Also it mentions that drug gangs have infiltrated the Motor Tax Office, Dept of Environment and Dublin City Council as well as security firms.

This mafia is getting bigger and more powerful, if the govt had put effort into cracking these gangs like they did against the 'Real Ira' after Omagh then just maybe these gangs would not be as powerful as they are now.

Armed robberies and or aggravated burglaries with a firearm have doubled from 203 in year 2000 to 428 in 2004.

Does anyone honestly believe that most if not all of these crimes are used with 'republican linked' guns ?..It is extremely naieve to think so.
Would you feel safe if you crossed one of these gangs knowing that they have access to your personal data on demand?

Sparks

'Of 83 killings committed with firearms in Ireland since 1998, only 14 convictions have been secured, according to DOJ.'
Thats a 83% chance of not getting caught if you kill someone with a firearm.

That's not quite that simple. It's not a case of there being a better chance of you evading capture if you use a firearm in a crime, it's a case of there being a better chance of you evading capture if you're part of an organised criminal gang, be it paramilitary in nature or not. The firearm itself isn't the cause of the low detection rate. If anything, in fact, use of a firearm in a crime makes forensic proof easier to find and exhibit in court.

Would you feel safe if you crossed one of these gangs knowing that they have access to your personal data on demand?

It's funny you should say that, since that's what people in the North have had to live with for over thirty years...

Victor

Many non-gun murders are crimes of passion between familiy members or friends and are relatively(! :eek: :rolleyes: ) easy to solve. Getting a gun and killing someone who isn't in your immediate circle is quite a deliberate act and you are likely to cover your tracks.

mycroft

axer wrote:

Interesting read on the story.
http://newtimesbpb.com/issues/2000-01-27/news_1.html

Oh how very donnie brasco doesn't change the essential thrust of the point of the IRA wanting to get their hands on clean firearms.

You forgot to add this before the quote "According to Sunday Independent journalist Jim Cusack"

And several other journalists. Implying a story is false because one journalist from one paper you dislike, reports it, doesn't make it untrue.

Also is this thread really about -> well the PIRA or CIRA or RIRA have the means, so they must be doing it!?

Um, er no, in both cases its the behaviour of people who are connected to both the IRA and SF and both organisations have tried to use plausible deniability to avoid the unpleasant implications of their involvement.

but then the SF daleks are active on this site

DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY

murphaph

mycroft wrote:

but then the SF daleks are active on this site

DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY

mycroft

mycroft wrote:

but then the SF daleks are active on this site

DE-NY DE-NY DE-NY

Please refrain from denegrating posters because of the party they support.
Your points are wasted when you desend to such levels.
It equates to an attack on peoples beliefs in a sweeping way rather than what you should be doing ie dealing with what they post.

I've taken those of an opposite belief to you to task already in the last 24 hours and whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the Gander.
If you have a problem with this, you can pm me but in this thread Back on topic now-thanks

axer

mycroft wrote:

Oh how very donnie brasco doesn't change the essential thrust of the point of the IRA wanting to get their hands on clean firearms.

As opposed "Unclean" weapons? The IRA have not disbanded as yet so arguing that they are still getting weapons means nothing.

mycroft wrote:

And several other journalists. Implying a story is false because one journalist from one paper you dislike, reports it, doesn't make it untrue.

What other journalists? Implying it must be true just because it was written by Paul Williams doesnt instantly make it true either.

mycroft wrote:

Um, er no, in both cases its the behaviour of people who are connected to both the IRA and SF and both organisations have tried to use plausible deniability to avoid the unpleasant implications of their involvement.

Because it was proven?

I always hear GUIL-TY GUIL-TY GUIL-TY

oscarBravo

axer wrote:

The IRA have not disbanded as yet so arguing that they are still getting weapons means nothing.

It does cast a strong doubt over their alleged intention to disband.

Have you ever worked for a company that has announced its intention to close up shop? How much capital expenditure do you suppose takes place in those circumstances?

mycroft

axer wrote:

As opposed "Unclean" weapons? The IRA have not disbanded as yet so arguing that they are still getting weapons means nothing.

So you're okay with you a terrorist army getting small arms with the specific intention that they could not be traced to other republican terrorist activity (the clean part, I'm sorry if the lingo escapes you) to ensure their plausibile denability, so they can continue to cripple and kill, members of the community they claim to protect?

It seems like you're more interested in the letter of the law, "the IRA haven't disbanded, therefore its okay for them to get guns" not "the IRA are supposed to be on a open ended ceasefire, with the long term goal of total disbandment, so it's not okay for them to be smuggling guns for kneecapping weapons which could "accidently" leave their hands and enter into the "wider" criminal" fraternity.

What other journalists? Implying it must be true just because it was written by Paul Williams doesnt instantly make it true either.

Most Irish papers covered the story, most agree that there was an IRA member involved, dismissing the source because you dislike the journalist, or the paper he works for, without providing supporting evidence to back up your assertion is fairly f*cking weak.

Because it was proven?

I always hear GUIL-TY GUIL-TY GUIL-TY

And tell me, what evidence would be acceptable to you? In the case of the first instance your link doesn't disprove that the IRA were importing weapons, you just don't seem to have issue with a terrorist organisation on cease fire for half a decade needing to get new guns.

In the second instance, the individual in question has been arrested and charged, the trial has not yet taken place, but then afterwards I'm sure it'll just be like the other campaign works for SF's southern apologist, they just happened to be in a van with campaign posters, and a tazer and a list of TDs, what does that prove? :rolleyes: