Esat/BT Keep taking cancelled DD payments!!!

vibe666

I've cancelled my direct debit to Esat/BT repeatedly over the last 6 months, but despite cancelling it at both ends, I'm not able to stop them taking the money out of my account.

I originally cancelled it because I'm an IT contractor and I get paid at odd times (still waiting for last months wages, but that's another story!) and it just wasn't working out for me.

anyway, so regardless of me cancelling it and their assurances it would not be taken again, they keep doing it every 2 months. this has happened 3 times now and after the second time, I emailed Bill Murphy on advice from people here and he got back to me straight away and passed me on to someone else who called me and assured me it would be fixed and i needn't worry.

now 2 months further on i'm back where i started, overdrawn for the 3rd time (not a good thing when i'm trying to get a mortgage!) and with no money in my bank account after they took my last few quid off me.

i've mailed bill again and it's been passed on and someone says they are dealing with it, but where do i stand? would comreg cover soemthing like this or would i need to speak to someone else as it's not directly a comms issue?

i've no money for a solicitor, and wouldn't get one for free as technically when i do eventually get paid, i'm not poor.

i double checked with my bank that the DD had been cancelled and they have confirmed that it was definately re-presented by BT last month.

what are my rights, and what can i demand of these idiots? they've screwed up the last 6 months of my credit history too, and I'm trying to get a mortgage, what can I do about that?

thanks in advance.

RE*AC*TOR

talk to your bank manager.
get all communication with your bank in writing.
they shouldn't be able to restart a DD without your signature - so either they are misrepresenting your signature or the bank has messed up.

Einstein

Vibe I had the exact same problem with another company regarding DDebit payments, and it too messed up my mortgage application, i'm also an IT contractor! Ring your bank manager. The bank are the ones that essentially permit payments from your account. Ring them AND fax a letter stating what you want. If after you send the fax and it happens again, you have proof that it was requested. If you mention this to your mortgage broker they should understand and explain your case, I was lucky that mine did.

Good luck

dave

vibe666

I've spoken to my bank, and they said that the DD mandate is a contract between me and BT and they can't stop it. I don't know how much I believe that, so I might just try and get hold of my branch manager and see what he says.

btw Divers, what mortgage broker did you use? did you have any problems being an IT contractor getting the mortgage? most companies seem to look at me like I'm a busker or soemthing because I'm self employed!

RE*AC*TOR

the DD mandate gets sent to your bank ONCE. with your signature on it. I assume you didn't sign a rake of mandates. Ask to see the mandate they sent. Photocopies aren't acceptable.

dahamsta

vibe666 wrote:

I've spoken to my bank, and they said that the DD mandate is a contract between me and BT and they can't stop it.

There's truth and falsehood in this. It is a contract between you and BT however they can stop it and it's not a difficult procedure; because of a fraud issue, I've stopped about a dozen DDs on my account recently. It involved signing an authorisation that consisted of a printout of the DDs on my account with the cancelled ones highlighted.

If I was you I'd go into your local branch and ask them to print off a list of your direct debit directions. Check the list for Esat/BT directions and ask them to cancel them. If they refuse at any point along the way, tell them that you feel the only other way to deal with this issue it to close the account, and they'll probably get more helpful. If they don't, close the account, you shouldn't be dealing with them.

BTW, when you're checking that list you should see if there's any already cancelled DDs on the account. If there is, it could be argued that any new ones have been set up fraudulently, as they'll have been resubmitting the original mandate. You should mention this to the bank too.

Don't phone btw. Phoning a bank is a waste of time and they can't do anything of substance over the phone unless you enter via an official Banking365-style fing. Even then, going into the branch is more effective.

adam

cgarvey

Give IFSRA a call to see where you stand. I would have thought (but I don't know for sure, so it's not good advice!) that CCing the bank on an instruction to Esat to terminate the DD contract was enough (that's what they tell you to do). If the DD contract has been cancelled, then seek renumeration (including any overdraft fees/interest) from your bank. Double check with IFSRA on that though.

vibe666

just got this back off them...

Many thanks for your recent email to raise your concerns regarding your direct debit. I can now confirm that I have removed your account in full from a direct debit payment and removed all of the direct debit bank details so you will encounter no further instances where money is taken without your
approval. Please allow me to take this opportunity to apologise for the inconvenience and error caused.

As per our terms and conditions however, we offer 2 payment options for our Consumer products. These options are direct debit from a bank or direct debit from a credit card. As per the letter you received you can cancel a direct debit at any time but would be required to give alternative details for payment. I apologise as this does not appear to have been made clear to
you when you made your initial request. Can you advise if you would like to change the direct debit details or provide credit card details for payment on your account for future bills.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards

can they make demands like this? it's never been mentioned before now and it's really not convenient for me to do things this way. doing the work i do I get paid at all sorts of weird dates and the only way for me to effectively manage my finances is to pay things manually when the money's there. I don't pay things late, I just can't be doing things their way as the money is very rarely in my bank when they decide to take it.

dahamsta

They require payment in one of those ways, and I don't doubt it's in their Ts and Cs. Yes, they can do it, because you have a choice: deal with them or don't deal with them. If you don't want to do it this way, you'll need to stop dealing with them. Eircom would probably be your best bet, although Netsource are probably worth checking into.

adam

lucernarian

I have been wondering too about manual billing and the only company that allows manual payment is Eircom, as that was the way it was for decades and they couldn't change it considering the likes of my granny not even owning an atm card let alone DD transactions or credit cards! I'd be interested to know aswell if any other (phone) company will allow manual payment of bills.

Gegerty

vibe666 wrote:

I've spoken to my bank, and they said that the DD mandate is a contract between me and BT and they can't stop it. I don't know how much I believe that, so I might just try and get hold of my branch manager and see what he says.

I cancelled my DD with BT a while back, they were charging me for the advantage package on sporadic months and I never even signed up for it. I rang BT to cancel and they said no not until you pay up, so I rang Banking 365 to cancel my DD and I got the same kind of cr*p as you've mentioned. She told me I had to get BTs permission to cancel and it all had to be done through BT.

Basically, I had it out with the poor girl on the phone and pointed out that they were providing a bank service to ME not BT and if she was telling me they were going to continue to let BT take my money without my permission then I was going to close my account. She knew she was talking sh*te and cancelled it.

BTW I got a few threatening letters from BT afterwards and they eventually just stopped and went away.

dahamsta

Gegerty wrote:

BTW I got a few threatening letters from BT afterwards and they eventually just stopped and went away.

I thought that too after the NoLimits farce, but they came back after a year or so via a firm called "Legal & Debt Management". I told them where to cram their imaginary debt and warned them that if they so much as mentioned my name to the Irish Credit Bureau I'd cram it up there even further, but you've to watch these muppets like a hawk. It could affect your credit rating just when you want it the most...

adam

Gegerty

dahamsta wrote:

I thought that too after the NoLimits farce, but they came back after a year or so via a firm called "Legal & Debt Management". I told them where to cram their imaginary debt and warned them that if they so much as mentioned my name to the Irish Credit Bureau I'd cram it up there even further, but you've to watch these muppets like a hawk. It could affect your credit rating just when you want it the most...

adam

Absolutely, if it ever gets that bad i'll be over to my solicitor quick smart. If they can show me where i signed up for the advantage package then I'll pay up. they won't be able to though cause i never signed for it and they know it. The fact that I'd be on it one bill and then not on it for 2 bills and then on it again for the 4th bill is evidence enough.

Slice

Write to your bank requesting a cancellation of the DD you have set up with BT and keep a copy of this written request, then if BT take any more monies out of your account (which they shouldn't because your bank should be rejecting it) get onto your bank and by right they should request to indemnify themselves against the direct debit they shouldn't have honoured in the first place - this means the bank will re-credit your account and seek the money back off BT and your debt will lie with them. What's more such a situation shouldn't affect your credit profile because it would be considered the bank's error.

As for companies and direct debit, all companies say they require direct debit, however if you enter into some kind of contract say with BT then you can subsequently request to cancel the direct debit either through your bank or the service provider and there's little the service provider can do about it. What's more, it's unlikely that method of payment is dictated by the contract you sign with them so they have little choice but to accept you don't want to have a direct debit with them. The alternative is to pay your bills at least a week before the direct debit payment due date of your bill

channelsurfer

ok bt seem to be a right shower of muppets when it comes to direct debits. just spent half an hour on a phone to them after going throught thier wonderful queue buster system where they ring you back whenever they feel like it. I was changing banks on the 25th and the dd came out on the 24th but it was returned unpaid despite my telling bt the new details just incase they were late taking payment and guess what the so called rep on the phone told me she didnt want to hear my story as far as she was concerned money was there and I should pay up. needless to say a rather nasty complaint letter is on its way to bt customer service.they even told my new bank to mind their own business when they rang up and tried to sort it out for me.

vibe666

channelsurfer, let me know and I can email you email addresses of anyone of importance at BT. the last time I mailed Bill Murphy he mailed me back and CC'd the mail to all his relevent department heads so I have a rake off addresses for the 'movers and shakers' (if there is such a thing) in BT.

but mailing Bill is your best bet to get things done. he's nothing if not quick! bill dot murphy at esat dot com will get you to the top of the ladder tho.

keep it nice but firm and try not to rant and he's very helpful.

Our man in Havana

The problem is that BT can set up DD's without a signature. IFSRA don't care, its a civil matter between you and BT. The bank can't get involved. The only thing that worked was the big threat of closing the account. Apparently once they have your consent written or ORAL they can set up as many DD's even if you keep cancelling them.

cgarvey

Bond-007 .. do you have a source for any of that? (specifically the Direct Debit bits).

Vibe666, did you ring IFSRA?

Our man in Havana

cgarvey wrote:

Bond-007 .. do you have a source for any of that? (specifically the Direct Debit bits).

I called ISFRA after ESAT BT set up DD's without my signature. I cancelled them in the bank and they just went ahead and set up new debits regardless. I challenged the bank on it and they said they could not interfere in a civil matter between the customer (me) and Them (esat). They said that they process DD's in good faith. I then rang IFSRA and they took the banks side, once you give "consent" in either a written or verbal form they have carte blanche to set up DD's at will regardless if you cancel in the bank. They bank is not a party to the deal so they cant interfere. Its a thing called continous debit authority. ESAT BT are a party this and may set up paperless DD's once they have "consent" either written or verbal, they do not have to send a mandate to the bank, the bank works on the assumption that consent has been obtained.
IFSRA's suggestion was that I contact the company esat and request them to stop or that I should get an injunction to stop them.
In the end I told the bank that I would hold them liable if they allowed any more debits and that I would sue them in full public view. They relented and I never heard another thing.

irishgeo

ESAT BT despute having my direct debit details and sending me a bill every month or two for Anytime with the bill saying i am paying by direct debit, they have yet to take one bit of money out of my account and the billl keeps adding up.

No one ever called or have i ever got a letter about and i cant stilldial up to the service no problem at all.

You just gotta love them.

fatherdougalmag

You mght find an authoritative answer over on AskAboutMoney.com in their Banking, Borrowing and Credit Cards forum.

cgarvey

Jaysus Bond, that's bad form alright. I asked, because the DD agreement (between originator and bank) clearly states that you must send a signed mandate form (which can be your own design, so long as you have the required fields). I know banks act "in good faith" with the major companies, but I presumed that was on the assumption that the mandate would follow, in a batch or whatever. So either small companies get different DD agreements, or the big companies blatently ignore the agreement (either one doesn't look great TBH).

Either way, it seems, the best advice is probably to send ESat a registered letter demandind them to cease the DD mandate within 10 working days. Take it to the small claims court after that. There are limits for what you can claim for in the SCC (check their website), but you can definately claim for your tangible losses.

vibe666

well, after a lot of to'ing and fro'ing and contacting mr murphy (again) it has now been sorted (hopefully) and they have removed all traces of my banking details from their systems and agreed to let me pay manually. the girl who dealt with me even had to ask me for my banks address so she could send an apology and explanation to my bank manager.

i've also requested that they find out how much i was charged by the bank for the OD's and that they credit my BT a/c with that amount. still waiting to hear back about that, but the rest seems to be sorted now.

cgarvey

Good to hear vibe.

It still makes me wonder, though, just how hard it is to implement a system, and it's associated processes, to handle simple scenarios like this. There must be a whole lot more to telecoms resale that I'm just missing.. but surely there's a very finite number of scenarios/states a customer can be in.. especially with BB. So why then do BT, eircom, ntl, Smart, Netsource, IBB all have such dire, and well documented, customer care? Sure some people are just thick, and a lot of the reps are underpaid, but even so!??!!

vibe666

when they pay peanuts (and they do)....