D Day for liverpool football club

Slash/ED

mr_angry wrote:

Thats a load of crap in my opinion. In this circumstance, the Turkish champions will be promoted from the qualifying stages to the group stages in place of Liverpool. This then opens up another seeding place in the third round, promoting another team automatically from the second round, and one from the first to take their place.

So basically an unseeded team in the first round, judged unlikely to win their game anyway, will have to play a bigger club in which the amount of money the smaller team will receive from the tie will be drastically increased. And what's more, they still have a chance of winning. How the hell is football losing out? If anything, quality football and entertainment is prevailing.

I would imagine most of the players and supporters of the smaller team will be champing at the bit to play Liverpool, not moaning about G14 and UEFA like yourself.

No, a team in the first and second round who were seeded are now unseeded and unseeded teams in both of those rounds have a chance of drawing Liverpool when they should have been drawing much weaker opponents with a good chance of progression. These teams have a right to be there, Liverpool do not. Football is loseing out, a G14 club as ever is gaining.

Guy:Incognito

Slash/ED wrote:

No, a team in the first and second round who were seeded are now unseeded and unseeded teams in both of those rounds have a chance of drawing Liverpool when they should have been drawing much weaker opponents with a good chance of progression. These teams have a right to be there, Liverpool do not. Football is loseing out, a G14 club as ever is gaining.

Given the choice, as has been proved by the TNS offer, the smaller clubs would prefer the chance of drawing liverpool over playing 1 or 2 crappy teams that will most likely beat them anyway. Plus, its UEFA's competiton, they own it and can do what tehy like.

Slash/ED

Stekelly wrote:

Given the choice, as has been proved by the TNS offer, the smaller clubs would prefer the chance of drawing liverpool ove rplaying 1 or 2 crapy teams that will most likely beat them anyway. Plus, its UEFA's competiton, they own it and can do what tehy like.

No, they wouldn't. TNS were the exception as they've virtually no chance of progression and pretty much never win anyway. Clubs want to progress. You think Hajduk Split, who lost their second round seeding as a result of this, are happy? You think they want to draw Liverpool instead of proper first round opposition?

UEFA do indeed own it and can do what they like, feck up the chances of as many small teams as they like to the benefit of the bigger clubs yet again and nobody can stop them. Just don't expect people who can see beyond the top teams to be happy about it.

mr_angry

Slash/ED wrote:

No, a team in the first and second round who were seeded are now unseeded and unseeded teams in both of those rounds have a chance of drawing Liverpool when they should have been drawing much weaker opponents with a good chance of progression. These teams have a right to be there, Liverpool do not. Football is loseing out, a G14 club as ever is gaining.

Ok. There was an automatic place reserved for the winners in next year's group stages. Because of this year's circumstances, Liverpool will not automatically be taking that place. Hence the Turkish champions will be promoted from the 3rd qualifying round to that group position.

Subsequent gaps are left in the qualifying rounds that have to be filled. Hence one team is promoted and promoted and promoted until the appropriate spaces are filled. The net result is that Liverpool will not be robbing one team of their seeding in the first round. In fact, one previous first-round seed will now be promoted automatically to the second round. The teams that were unseeded in the first round remain unseeded, and my original point stands on this issue - they will be delighted to draw Liverpool, no matter who they are.

Guy:Incognito

Slash/ED wrote:

No, they wouldn't. TNS were the exception as they've virtually no chance of progression and pretty much never win anyway. Clubs want to progress. You think Hajduk Split, who lost their second round seeding as a result of this, are happy? You think they want to draw Liverpool instead of proper first round opposition?

UEFA do indeed own it and can do what they like, feck up the chances of as many small teams as they like to the benefit of the bigger clubs yet again and nobody can stop them. Just don't expect people who can see beyond the top teams to be happy about it.

So your only issue is that Liverpool are too good to be in the 1st round?

mr_angry

Straight from the horse's mouth:

UEFA.com wrote:

Fenerbahçe get group stage start
Friday, 10 June 2005

The decision to allow Liverpool FC to play in the first qualifying round of the 2005/06 UEFA Champions League means that Fenerbahçe SK will enter the group stage.

Moving up
The Turkish champions were due to start in the third qualifying round but will take the automatic place normally offered to the holders. Further down the rankings, the Polish champions Wisla Kraków will move up to the third qualifying round and the eventual Romanian champions will take the available second qualifying round spot, rather than entering in the first qualifying round.

Final day
The Divizia A title in Romania will be decided tomorrow with FC Steaua Bucuresti needing just a point on the final day to clinch the championship, and with FC Dinamo Bucuresti requiring victory and a Steaua defeat to overtake them at the top.

NOTE: The information included in this list is provisional and will be confirmed by UEFA in mid-June following the receipt of the official entry documents from each of the national associations.

redspider

Slash/ED wrote:

You must be f*cking joking. Because of UEFAs spinelessness one club in the first round will now be denied a chance of progression if they draw Liverpool, denying them a chance to improve their co-efficent and get seeded in future rounds as Shels did last season.
Football wins? You haven't a clue. Football does not = the big clubs. This decision will seriously píss on the chips of quite a few small clubs but sure, when did UEFA ever consider them worthwhile? Shels could now draw these in the second round rather than a team like Hajduk Split who they've already beaten, if we do, we've little to no chance of getting to the next round when before we did. Yeah, great news, football wins again :rolleyes:

Slashed, are you sloshed?

There are very few involved in the sport that think Liverpool should have been denied a place. You must accept the fact that Liverpool won the CL, and have by right of their performances qualified for it next year. The only error being Uefa's loophole (they even assumed there would be a TH in the draw which would automatically get a group stage position). Uefa have now fixed the loophole for future years. This is a Uefa mistake, not a Liverpool one, and everyone should gladly accept that football has won out at the end of the day, that a team that wins a competition can deend it the following year, that only makes sense.

Of course there is a chance that some clubs may feel punished for this allowance, but the vast majority wont. I'd say Shelbourne would relish playing Liverpool in the QR1 stage, rather than playing a lower quality team, or even going out to a team with an unpronounceable name. I realise that any team with ambitios needs to progress each year, and the further the better, but most teams would to willing to give this up. And as has been pointed out, other teams gain with their seedings.

I do take your point and agree with it that football does not equal big clubs. It shouldnt and I am at the top of the line when advocating changing rules, etc, to help the smaller clubs and to make football more competitive. I'm for the small clubs. However, wanting to deny Liverpool a place because the bureaucrats in Uefa didnt think of this scenario (even though it already happened with Real), and becuase rules are rules is moronic.

There are some severe cases of sour grapes on boards.ie over:

a) Liverpool winning the CL
b) Liverpool qualifying for next years CL

Learn to live with it ......... and enjoy the summer,

Redspider

WhiteWashMan

redspider wrote:

You must accept the fact that Liverpool won the CL, and have by right of their performances qualified for it next year.

while liverpool won the CL, it did not give them a qualification place in othe next tournament.

Liverpool, at no stage, anywhere on this earth, earn a place in this years CL according to UEFA rules.

mr_angry

WhiteWashMan wrote:

while liverpool won the CL, it did not give them a qualification place in othe next tournament.

Liverpool, at no stage, anywhere on this earth, earn a place in this years CL according to UEFA rules.

But were those rules in the best interest of the game? I would say no. It would seem UEFA say no too...

Guy:Incognito

WhiteWashMan wrote:

while liverpool won the CL, it did not give them a qualification place in othe next tournament.
.

Obviously it did.


It could also be argued that since Utd and Everton won absolutely nothing why should they be in Europe at all.

~Rebel~

mr_angry wrote:

But were those rules in the best interest of the game? I would say no. It would seem UEFA say no too...

I think everyone says no....except a few people on here, who have suddenly become devout Hadjuk Split fans!

But anyway, yeah that whole holders not being in group stages thing, as said before, does in fact mean that everyone moves up a step and liverpool take the final seeding position left over at the end meaning noone looses out and 2 lucky teams (rounds 1 and 2) face a certain massive cash influx for filling the biggest stadium they can find to hold their leg of the liverpool match - plus money from television!! :eek: if anything the other teams will be annoyed for NOT drawing liverpool and thus gaining lots of money to be used on improving teams and facilities or whatever they want it for!

Really like, i sympathised and saw the points of those who were anti-rule change, because it was a very valid point, but the new gripes now that common sense has prevailed are just crazy!

alfie

Third_Echelon wrote:

I think this is great news for the premiership. It will mean that Liverpool will be rubbish in the league again this year because of their extended champions league run....

Looks like 4th spot is safe again.... G'wan the toffees

I have a feeling if Everton progress to the group stages their squad wont be able to cope with that amount of fixtures, having said that Liverpool are gonna have an awful long season so who knows

~Rebel~

alfie wrote:

I have a feeling if Everton progress to the group stages their squad wont be able to cope with that amount of fixtures, having said that Liverpool are gonna have an awful long season so who knows

If pool can get out of some of their preseason fixtures already in place it shouldn't make much difference, will just use CL Qualifying as preseason. Its only 4 extra games then would have if entered 3rd round, sure thats only an Amsterdam Tournament (just an eg, know they're not in it this year) or something in terms of numbers of games, and they get long breaks in between (at least a week) so im not to pessimistic about it..more worried about the club championship at christmas..

On the everton comment, i think they'll be fine seeing as they seem all set to bring in a few extra players so will have more strength in depth.

mike65

Well I'm happy enough.

I see UEFA have changed the rules so that if the title holders finish out side the qualification places the last qualifying team will get bumped into the UEFA Cup. So Everton can thank thre lucky stars this did'nt happen next year!

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

mike65 wrote:

Well I'm happy enough.

I see UEFA have changed the rules so that if the title holders finish out side the qualification places the last qualifying team will get bumped into the UEFA Cup. So Everton can thank thre lucky stars this did'nt happen next year!

Mike.

It still might, I would'nt mind them retaining it.

Kingp35

redspider wrote:

Of course there is a chance that some clubs may feel punished for this allowance, but the vast majority wont. I'd say Shelbourne would relish playing Liverpool in the QR1 stage, rather than playing a lower quality team, or even going out to a team with an unpronounceable name. I realise that any team with ambitios needs to progress each year, and the further the better, but most teams would to willing to give this up. And as has been pointed out, other teams gain with their seedings.

Thats an absolute load of sh1te. there is no way shelbourne would choose to play liverpool for the sake of money. look how close they were last season do you honestly think they dont want to do that again this season? You usually know what your talking about but this time you could not be more wrong. Shelbourne are a club progressing and can only do that by winning games and gaining experience. The same goes for all smaller clubs.

Nobody on this site can say that football only has interest in the big clubs. they always get precedent over smaller teams. I agree this is a bad day for football and this is what I was complaining about all along. Smaller teams are being affected to accomodate bigger teams. its the same old story over again with that bunch of idiots at UEFA.

If you want to bring it onto another level take ireland for example. Take our national league. It can only develope with teams like shelbourne etc. advancing in european competitions enabling us to attract players to ur league. Redspider do you think we could attract quality players by losing in the first round of competitions? I dont think so. the same goes for other countries that are developing their leagues too. You talk about making football more exciting. The way to that is by making more quality teams from a variety of countries not just the same few. This means developing leagues in smaller countries. With the current UEFA bigwigs this is never gonna happen because they couldnt care less about smaller teams. Something has gotta be done to start developing this game into other countries. Redspider wake and realise what people are complaining about.

redspider

WhiteWashMan wrote:

while liverpool won the CL, it did not give them a qualification place in othe next tournament. Liverpool, at no stage, anywhere on this earth, earn a place in this years CL according to UEFA rules.

Are you blind? Here's the situation:

Liverpool win the CL
Uefa's rules, at that point, dont grant Liverpool qualification
Uefa change their own rules - they are entitled to do that, as their intention is NOT to rule out the winner of the CL (they even have a place in the group stages called TH espeically for the CL winner).
They also change the rules so that in future years this *anomaly* ( <-- rea this word) doesnt happen again
Uefa's rules from the 10th June 2005 grant Liverpool a qualification berth

> Liverpool, at no stage, anywhere on this earth, earn a place in this years CL according to UEFA rules.

Wrong. Liverpool have qualified for the CL. Accept it ! You may not like it, you may not like the fact that they won the CL, but now its just time to accept it.

I dont think there is anything left to debate here.

Redspider

Kingp35

redspider wrote:

I dont think there is anything left to debate here.

Redspider

this is beyond people who are bitter about liverpool. Fine their in, accepted. My problem is as in my post above. Do you believe there is nothing left to debate or would you actually like to see UEFA care about smaller leagues like OURS!! You say you are all for smaller teams. Doesnt seem like it to me.

The debate is why do bigger clubs get precedent where small teams like Irish clubs miss out? Thats what p1sses me off

TheMonster

totally agree kingpin - could you imagine the furore if rules were changed to suit Man United. The ABUs would be out in force and heading the q would be the Liverpool fans.

I have never arued the rules are wrong but you can't change them to suit the situation, halfway thru a competion.(The CL is effectively a 2 year competion with the qualifying round being the league of the yea before)

Teams that can feel hard done by
R.Zaragoza - If UEFA had made the same change they would have played in the CL(They were compenated by Spanish FA and not UEFA so could still sue UEFA)
Chelsea/Arsenal/Man U/Everton - Lose Money
Hadjuk Split - Lose seeding
Team who draws Liverpool in 1st Qualifying - no chance of getting through
Team who draws Liverpool in 2nd Qualifying - no chance of getting through
Team who draws Liverpool in 3rd Qualifying - no chance of getting through
A team in Qualifing Round 3 who will become unseeded

redspider

Kingp35 wrote:

Thats an absolute load of sh1te. there is no way shelbourne would choose to play liverpool for the sake of money. look how close they were last season do you honestly think they dont want to do that again this season? You usually know what your talking about but this time you could not be more wrong. Shelbourne are a club progressing and can only do that by winning games and gaining experience. The same goes for all smaller clubs.
Smaller teams are being affected to accomodate bigger teams. Take our national league. It can only develope with teams like shelbourne etc. advancing in european competitions enabling us to attract players to ur league. Redspider do you think we could attract quality players by losing in the first round of competitions?

The debate on this point is not over. I agree that teams at Shelbourne's current level obviously want to improve and aren't just in it for the money. However, last years run was particularly good and may not happen this year. I think that the Shelbourne owners would forsake the co-efficient of this single year to get to play the team such as the size of Liverpool. That is the dream that Shelbourne are trying to reach anyway, and this way they get the chance to, so why not? Isn't Pat Fenlon the manager, I'd be interested to hear what he has to say. Shelbourne could get dumped out by a nobody. They may even draw against Liverpool, or who knows, may even beat them. Liverpool lost to the likes of Burnley in the season just gone so why not.

There are many things wrong with the league in Ireland. It was debated in another thread and I didnt have the time to contribute to the debate. Irish clubs have remained small over the years for many reasons, and we have to look no further than Celtic/Rangers, in a country of 5m, and us here with 4m, to compare the leagues. We should have at least 1 big wealthy club if not 2 big wealthy clubs. No club can seem to keep their momentum going. Shamrock Rovers in years gone by, Pats a few years back, and now Shelbourne are in the driving seat.

But even if ssay over the next 10 years, Shelbourne continue on their development path, get bigger, regenerate the league here, and start doing well in the CL, ala Rosenborg. At that point they may no longer be a small club, but there will be others. There will always be small clubs. That is the nature of professional football.

Just a footnote on the money. I am sure that the Shelbourne owners are only interested in maximising that, so whether its avoiding Liverpool to make CL progression or playing Liverpool, they are likely to want to follow the money.


P W D L F A Pts
Cork City 12 8 3 1 20 6 27
Derry City 12 7 2 3 15 8 23
Shelbourne 12 6 4 2 18 8 22
Drogheda U 12 5 5 2 15 12 20
Bohemians 12 5 4 3 13 12 19
Longford Tn 12 5 2 5 11 10 17
Bray Wands 12 4 2 6 15 20 14
Waterford U 12 4 2 6 10 15 14
St Pat's 12 3 4 5 14 16 13
UCD 12 2 5 5 7 11 11
Finn Harps 12 1 2 9 4 18 5
Shamrock R 12 2 5 5 12 18 3

Draupnir

TheMonster wrote:

Team who draws Liverpool in 1st Qualifying - no chance of getting through
Team who draws Liverpool in 2nd Qualifying - no chance of getting through
Team who draws Liverpool in 3rd Qualifying - no chance of getting through

youre forgetting how bad this Liverpool side actually is, except for the Champions League run this year.

there are some damn good continental teams in those qualifying rounds and without the glamour ties, it might be harder for the Liverpool lads, carragher et al, to raise their game.

its not a foregone conclusion that Liverpool are good enough with their current squad to beat some of the teams in the 3rd qualifying round especially.

eirebhoy

TheMonster wrote:

Team who draws Liverpool in 3rd Qualifying - no chance of getting through

Oh, I wouldn't say that. I'm a Celtic fan and am worried about QR3. Real Betis and Shakhtar are certainly good enough to beat anyone (and would probably be favourites against Celtic). A Merseyside derby won't be easy either, Udinese will strengthen in the summer after finishing 4th in Serie A and a trip to Tel Aviv won't be easy.

Drag00n79

Draupnir wrote:

its not a foregone conclusion that Liverpool are good enough with their current squad to beat some of the teams in the 3rd qualifying round especially.

You're dead right but I'm delighted we are being given a chance to defend the cup we won last month.

Draupnir

yeah i dont mind it either, cant come up with a good reason to care actually, once nobody lost a place im not arsed, when it comes down to it, its 11 v 11 and seeding goes out the window.

redspider

Kingp35 wrote:

would you actually like to see UEFA care about smaller leagues like OURS!! You say you are all for smaller teams. Doesnt seem like it to me. The debate is why do bigger clubs get precedent where small teams like Irish clubs miss out? Thats what p1sses me off

With this decision, the damage to the smaller clubs is very small indeed. I dont think they will be so badly affected as some people claim. Many of the smaller clubs will probably be delighted to play Liverpool in rnd 1.

With this decision, it wasnt a case of Uefa favouring a bigger club per se. They had a system in place which presumed the Title Holders (= TH = CL Winners) qualified via their leagues. Thats why they have TH in the draw and in their rules. Also, TH gets a special privileged place in the draw, somewhat sacrosanct, so it doesnt make any sense to exclude them.

Uefa messed up by not having a rule that mandates the TH is put in by the national association. They have fixed that anomaly and I'd say they are pissed off at the English FA who could have decided to put Liverpool forward instead of Everton. So, Uefa's decision was about the winners of their CL cup, whether it was Liverpool, or a so-called weaker team such as the likes of Monaco or even a small club. It wasnt necessarily about being bad for smaller clubs and favouring bigger clubs over smaller clubs.

Lets just see how the rounds go, and if any small club is badly affected by this decision. I dont think the small clubs will be.

In terms of the league of ireland issue, I will have a look at that thread again and put in some suggestions.

Redspider

Keano_sli

Jesus what is it with some of you Liverpool fans, you're all bitching and moaning when your not being allowed in, you're still bitching and moaning when you are allowed in.
I have to agree with whoever said if the rules had been changed to accomodate say Manchester United there would have been absolute uproar! Led by Liverpool fans no doubt, buts lets face it bad as things are at Old trafford at the moment we'll still not finish 5th in the league!
Adn there is no guaruntee that Liverpool will get through the qualifying rounds!

smemon

CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT CHEAT.....

so the rules have been changed just to suit liverpool. very fair indeed i must. so a side can get relegated and not give a toss about their domestic campaign and instead focus entirely on winning the CL, safe in the knowledge they will be in it next year if they win.

tbh, nobody would see it like that but it is a bad move imo. if a side like liverpool are say 5th in the league a few points behind the 4th placed side and still in the champs league, obviously they would put all their energy into the champs league to win it and field understrength league sides in order to avoid injuries etc.

having said that, i doubt it will happen again as true champions qualify anyway. 1/4 of the premiership in the champs league next year.......it's getting a bit ridiculous. it'd be a laugh though if liverpool got knocked out before the group stages. i'd wet myself.

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

. And as has been pointed out, other teams gain with their seedings.

This is a myth and is simply NOT the case.

I'll copy and paste from someone on another messageboard who summed up the situation

The teams that are bumped up (Romanian champions, Wisla Krakow and Fenerbahce) would also have been bumped up if England would have just 4 spots, so they don't profit from Liverpool taking part. Without Liverpool also the Slovakian champions would have bumped up (to QR2). Now they have to start in QR1.
And Rabotnicki, Hajduk Split and Slavia Prague lose their seeded status in QR1, QR2 and QR3 respectively now Liverpool is in.

Only teams that profit from Liverpool's CL-spot are Germinal Beerschot (Belgium) and Hibernian (Scotland). They now move up to R1 of the UEFA-cup to fill the gap Liverpool has left there.

Fair? Football wins? You're having a laugh.

the damage to the smaller clubs is very small indeed. I dont think they will be so badly affected as some people claim

As you can see, you're miles off.

I think that the Shelbourne owners would forsake the co-efficient of this single year to get to play the team such as the size of Liverpool

Put simply, NO.

wheres me jumpa

all i can say on the matter is what a mess uefa have made of the champions league.

its a simple rule, the champions get to defend their trophy. the other teams entering should be structured around this fact.

4 teams from england going through is a disgrace.

eirebhoy

This is getting ridiculous now from the FA/PL:

BBC Sport wrote:

Man City backed for Uefa Cup slot
The Premier League wants Manchester City to take Liverpool's vacant slot in the Uefa Cup after they were handed a place in the Champions League.
League chiefs reacted angrily after Uefa revealed City would not be able to step in as a replacement for Liverpool.

They believe an English Uefa Cup place has now been taken away.

A spokesman said: "We will be asking the FA to formally re-nominate Bolton, Middlesbrough and Manchester City in the three Uefa Cup places allocated."

Chucky the tree

Kingp35 wrote:

Thats an absolute load of sh1te. there is no way shelbourne would choose to play liverpool for the sake of money. look how close they were last season do you honestly think they dont want to do that again this season? .

CLose? haha priceless.

they got destroyed by a **** depor side. Did they even have a shoot on goal in the second leg?

Of course they would play liverpool for the sake of money, why do you think they moved the depor match to lansdowne road? for the laugh?

eirebhoy

Chucky the tree wrote:

they got destroyed by a **** depor side. Did they even have a shoot on goal in the second leg?

They nearly took the lead as soon as that Olympic race took half the screen up. Jason Byrne I think.

Draupnir

Byrne should have had 2 in that game.

Brian017

They Premier League are getting greedy IMO. They got their way over Liverpool and now they want Man City to get a UEFA Cup place.

Guy:Incognito

Kingp35 wrote:

this is beyond people who are bitter about liverpool. Fine their in, accepted. My problem is as in my post above. Do you believe there is nothing left to debate or would you actually like to see UEFA care about smaller leagues like OURS!! You say you are all for smaller teams. Doesnt seem like it to me.

The debate is why do bigger clubs get precedent where small teams like Irish clubs miss out? Thats what p1sses me off

Well, when Shels win it we'll see how UEFA accomodate them.

Guy:Incognito

TheMonster wrote:

I have never arued the rules are wrong but you can't change them to suit the situation,

I think they proved that you can indeed do just that.

Slash/ED

Chucky the tree wrote:

CLose? haha priceless.

they got destroyed by a **** depor side. Did they even have a shoot on goal in the second leg?

Of course they would play liverpool for the sake of money, why do you think they moved the depor match to lansdowne road? for the laugh?

Did you watch the game? That is so far from the truth it's not worth commenting on.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Slash/ED wrote:

Did you watch the game? That is so far from the truth it's not worth commenting on.

And yet ....

Good for the pool. Wonder how Arsenal/United etc will react over the next couple of days now that the CL profits will be cut ? Glazier will not be happy.

thejollyrodger

No Liverpool tie for Shels
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1415046&issue_id=12613

SHELBOURNE'S dreams of landing a money-spinning clash with Liverpool in the first qualifying round of next season's Champions League have been dashed - by their own success.

The eircom League champions beat KR Rekyjavik and Hajduk Split in the opening two rounds of last season's competition before bowing out to Deportivo la Coruna. As a result, they, like Liverpool, will be among the 11 teams seeded for the first round this time out.

On the plus side, Shels won't be seeded for the second qualifying round if they reach it, leaving open the possibility of a dream tie against Liverpool or Celtic, who will come into the competition at that stage.

Liverpool, meanwhile, face the prospect of being given a trip to places like Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan when the draw for the first round is made on June 24

Thank god we avoid liverpool in the 1st round. I want to get to the 3rd round at least. Fingers crossed for a decent 2nd round tie. Any idea who that might be ?

There is no way Shels want a big club in the 1st or 2nd round. We want to improve our co-efficent. Personally I think the English FA should have kicked Everton or Liverpool out of the CL. Like what Spain did.

Slash/ED

God almighty the last thing I want is Celtic. I don't think I could stomach Lansdowne Road full of oirsh Celtic fans with their Irish flags supporting the opposition. Eejits. I doubt I'd go tbh.

eirebhoy

Slash/ED wrote:

God almighty the last thing I want is Celtic. I don't think I could stomach Lansdowne Road full of oirsh Celtic fans with their Irish flags supporting the opposition. Eejits...

C'mon now Slash. Eejits? Its Ok for a Cork City supporter to hope Shels fail but if you're a Celtic fan you shouldn't support them against an Irish team?

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

C'mon now Slash. Eejits? Its Ok for a Cork City supporter to hope Shels fail but if you're a Celtic fan you shouldn't support them against an Irish team?

Cork hope we fail because we're rivals, the Celtic fans who would pack out Lansdowne road would hope we fail so they can support their plastic Irish team while waving their tricolours around showing how Irish they are. Like against Pats, these true patriotic Irish types booing the Irish team :rolleyes:

I just think it's pathetic that if we drew certain sides the Irish public would rally around the oppositon and the eircom league side would almost be like the foreign team coming to visit.

PHB

Hey slash, are you from Shelbourne?

Slash/ED

PHB wrote:

Hey slash, are you from Shelbourne?

No, why?

PHB

Whats the difference between
You supporting Shelbourne, which isn't where you're from.
Some Guy supporting Celtic, which isn't where they are from

el rabitos

while on the subject of celtic and since this is a thread based on liverpool...i have a couple of related questions....well....more like a couple of things that bother me about celtic

1. why do celtic fans march around with irish flags when clearly its a scottish club, its a catholic club i know....but doesnt make them any less scottish, right?

2. why the hell/when the hell did they decide "you'll never walk alone" was a song that should be sang around at celtic matches?

Jivin Turkey

This will be a long one.

Slash/ED wrote:

Because of UEFAs spinelessness one club in the first round will now be denied a chance of progression if they draw Liverpool, denying them a chance to improve their co-efficent and get seeded in future rounds as Shels did last season.

Incorrect. UEFA have been harsh on Liverpool. The holders have never had to qualify for the CL proper. They have always started in the groups.

It is the FA who have been spineless. Their hope that Liverpool would not win the CL came back to bite them in the ass. Liverpool should have been entered instead of Everton, this is demonstrated by the way the rules will be changed to ensure this is what happens should the scenario arise again.

This is what the FA said would happen last year. This is what will happen in future years. Yet I dont hear complaints about those rules being changed mid-season, particularly from you TheMonster. I wonder why?

The FA gambled on the hope that Liverpool wouldnt win the competition. Why should Liverpool suffer from their stupidity? Why in previous/future years would/will they have put in the CL winners but not this year?

And why will one team be "denied a chance of progression"? They still have to play the game. They would have faced a seeded team anyway. How come they are "denied a chance of progression" when facing one seeded team but not another?

Slash/ED wrote:

Another team in the first round that was seeded has now been pushed down to accomodate Liverpool, drastically reducing their chances of progression too. The same has happened in the second round, and Liverpool as a potential second round opponent will reduce another teams chances of progression.

Not as a result of Liverpool. Liverpool have taken the seeding place of all those clubs promoted in the seedings because of their demotion.

It was necessary to put an extra team in the competition anyway because of the Turks/Poles/Romanians promotion. Their wasnt enough teams in the first round.

Slash/ED wrote:

Just checked, Hajduk Split are now unseeded thanks to this, meaning they've very little chance of making the third round qualifyiers and having a chance of either UEFA cup or CL group stages.

Hadjuk split didnt deserve or have seeding in the second round anyway. They got it by default due to the Poles promotion. But all these promotions have left a gap in the competition, and thats where Liverpool come in.

TheMonster wrote:

would love to see Hadjuk Spilt or one of the other clubs affected by this putting forward a legal challenge because I believe they would win it.

Course you would love to see it. You have a serious chip on your shoulder against Liverpool.

Ive said it to you many times before in the other thread. None of these teams could possibly have a legal challenge because they are not losing anything they are entitled to in the first place. So you can believe they would win a case all you want. You should bottle up all this bitterness and sell it, you could put Jif Lemon out of business.

TheMonster wrote:

Yuo can't change the rules mid-way though the competition.

But you constantly ignore that the English FA did. You also ignored the paragraph I pointed out from the link YOU posted to the CL regulations, that in unforseen circumstances what the CEO says goes. A disclaimer to edit the rules if needed.

TheMonster wrote:

One of teams who might get a big day getting into the group stages will no wlose out

This team has already got their "big day out". Fenerbache dont even have to qualify.

TheMonster wrote:

even though with Liverpools erratic form this season this is by no means certain.

A perfect demonstration of your bitterness/chip on shoulder towards Liverpool. The worst thing is you try and deny it.

And on a side note, the last thing I would call Liverpools form in Europe is erratic. In case you forgot, they won the competition.

TheMonster wrote:

Whats all this crap about "country protection" - what about the teams from that country that could play Liverpool - do they not get country protection - what a fvcking farce!!!

Yes they do. So I dont understand how this is a "farce". Could you please explain.

smemon wrote:

tbh, nobody would see it like that but it is a bad move imo. if a side like liverpool are say 5th in the league a few points behind the 4th placed side and still in the champs league, obviously they would put all their energy into the champs league to win it and field understrength league sides in order to avoid injuries etc.

But the fundamental flaw with this arguement is that because teams like Liverpool and United have sacrifed the league at times over the last number of years to do well in Europe that the English league has four spots in the CL now.

smemon wrote:

having said that, i doubt it will happen again as true champions qualify anyway.

A dig at Liverpool, but Im not surprised.

You are right however, true champions qualify anyway. Like teams who finish 2nd, 3rd and 4th in their domestic leagues. If there was ever a phrase to describe them it would be "true champions"

smemon wrote:

it'd be a laugh though if liverpool got knocked out before the group stages. i'd wet myself.

The same could be said about a lot of teams. I can just imagine the out-cry if United or Everton dont qualify for the groups and Liverpool do.

Slash/ED wrote:

This is a myth and is simply NOT the case.

I'll copy and paste from someone on another messageboard who summed up the situation

The teams that are bumped up (Romanian champions, Wisla Krakow and Fenerbahce) would also have been bumped up if England would have just 4 spots, so they don't profit from Liverpool taking part. Without Liverpool also the Slovakian champions would have bumped up (to QR2). Now they have to start in QR1.
And Rabotnicki, Hajduk Split and Slavia Prague lose their seeded status in QR1, QR2 and QR3 respectively now Liverpool is in.

Only teams that profit from Liverpool's CL-spot are Germinal Beerschot (Belgium) and Hibernian (Scotland). They now move up to R1 of the UEFA-cup to fill the gap Liverpool has left there.

Fair? Football wins? You're having a laugh.

Well if someone posted it on another forum it must be true.

I can see one fundamental flaw here. He claims that because of Liverpool the Slovakian champions dont get bumped up to QR2. Just to let you know the Slovakian champions are in QR2.

As regards the teams losing seeding? They didnt deserve it based on merit of previous years so they shouldnt feel agrieved. One of your arguements against Liverpool is that they didnt deserve it, so why should these teams get a place in the seeding they dont deserve?

As for people saying if it was United their would be an "out-cry", probably. Would you not call this an "out-cry"? I cant speak for everyone but Ill be honest. I might say United shouldnt get it (probably just to wind a few up), but Id know and ultimately admit that the champions of the previous year should qualify, and start in the groups.

What if it was Everton this year? I bet half the people giving out against Liverpool here would be demanding that Everton go through, because they put in so much to win it. They would be right.

eirebhoy

el rabitos wrote:

1. why do celtic fans march around with irish flags when clearly its a scottish club, its a catholic club i know....but doesnt make them any less scottish, right?

I think its fantastic seeing European stadiums covered in Ireland flags. Any Irish person with nothing against Celtic would love seeing Ireland flags been waved worldwide. If Lokomotiv Moskow filled stadium's with Ireland flags it would send shivers down my spine.

2. why the hell/when the hell did they decide "you'll never walk alone" was a song that should be sang around at celtic matches?

Why didn't you ask why/when the fields of athenry was adopted by Liverpool and Man U fans? Milan, Celtic and Liverpool are just 3 of many clubs that sing YNWA. Just because Liverpool sang it first doesn't mean its their song. Anyway, Celtic fans sing it best.

el rabitos

Celtic fans sing it best

:rolleyes: your an idiot

Any Irish person with nothing against Celtic would love seeing Ireland flags been waved worldwide

i dont think about celtic enough to have anything against them, i just reckon its dumb having ireland flags waved in support of celtic who are about as irish are canadians are american.

Why didn't you ask why/when the fields of athenry was adopted by Liverpool and Man U fans? Milan, Celtic and Liverpool are just 3 of many clubs that sing YNWA. Just because Liverpool sang it first doesn't mean its their song

as someone who supports and loves liverpool, the one aspect i cant stand is the singing of "the fields of athenry" at matches....tbh i just dont get it, but thats just me.

milan fans version of ynwa is meant as an insult, i think someone posted the translated lyrics on the champions lge final thread. so they arent singing it in the way celtic fans are.

just seems to me as though celtic fans trying to steal a bit of liverpools thunder by singing the song, but again, thats just how it comes across to me.

smemon

Jivin Turkey wrote:

You are right however, true champions qualify anyway. Like teams who finish 2nd, 3rd and 4th in their domestic leagues. If there was ever a phrase to describe them it would be "true champions"

As for people saying if it was United their would be an "out-cry", probably. Would you not call this an "out-cry"? I cant speak for everyone but Ill be honest. I might say United shouldnt get it (probably just to wind a few up), but Id know and ultimately admit that the champions of the previous year should qualify, and start in the groups.

true champions get into trophies theyve just won without needing help from uefa or the fa to do so. im all on for a champions league with ONLY the winners of domestic leagues in it, but that wont happen anymore. atm, especially after this decision its gone the complete opposite and it seems you can collect 10 crisp packets and get in.

the rules were there for a reason, should this situation have occured they should have been stuck by and not re-written because of pressure from certain people.

anyway, liverpool are lucky to be in the qualifiers at all, it's funny to hear fans demand they get into the group stages. scared of getting knocked out before it starts me thinks. uefa have broken the rules to let ye in, count yourselves lucky.