VRT & proving 30 years ?

dealgan

Hi folks,
Need some help from you experienced importers...

I'm in the middle of buying a 1975 car from the UK.
It was imported to the UK in 1983, and has a date of first reg in the Uk of november 1983.
The UK V5 logbook states in the special notes section (section 3 ?)
'vehicle was registered/used overseas.declared manufactured 1975.'


I was onto revenue about importing & they say they need to know the exact date of first reg i.e. dd/mm/yy before they can give the 50 Eruo VRT rate for 30 years & over.

How can I find this out ?
I don't know what country it came from, but is is originally RHD.

Any suggestions ?

Thanks.

kermit_ie

DVLA in Swansea?

MercMad

What type of car is it ?

You could contact the manufacturers with the chassis number and they should be able to supply a Data Card with the eaxct date of manufacture on it !

If not a marque Club should be able to do the same.........though whether the b4stards will accept a Clubs opinion is anyones guess !

Good luck !

ds20prefecture

MercMad wrote:

You could contact the manufacturers with the chassis number and they should be able to supply a Data Card with the eaxct date of manufacture on it !

Or a published reference book on the marque/model might give the ranges of VINs by year.

What type of car is it, and have you any pictures

dealgan

Its a Porsche.
(A nice black 911 )

Do I go to Porsche AG for this info ?

pics are at http://www.declangrady.com/911.html

Cheers.

ds20prefecture

dealgan wrote:

Its a Porsche. (A nice black 911 )
Do I go to Porsche AG for this info ?
pics are at http://www.declangrady.com/911.html

Oh that old thing...

Drool. Isn't there an online Porsche register?

mumble mumble resent mumble begrudge mumble...

dealgan

I dont know if there is an online register ?

I was onto Porsche Club GB, & they suggested I call Porsche Cars GB in Reading, so now I'm waiting for someone from there to call me back.

by the way ... what is the deciding factor for 30 years & vrt .. is it date of first reg, or date of manufacture ?
I guess Porsche will be able to tell me date of manufacture, but that may not be enough for our nice people in the vro

Cheers.

ds20prefecture

> what is the deciding factor for 30 years & vrt .. is it date of first reg, or date of manufacture ?

In the absence of proof of date of first registration, I would imagine date of manufacture should be sufficient, unless it's borderline. If your car was a 1975 car, the chances are it was manufactured in 1974. If the number comes back as manufactured in June 1975, you're fresh out of luck.

Apparently there's no system for decoding VIN numbers on 911s prior to '81, you'll need the manufacturer.

My DS had the previous reg in France, but no first reg documentation. I did have the dealer delivery documentation from 1972, though. The guy took all of the numbers (engine, chassis, even the paint code) and gave it a reasonable look to make sure nothing had been chopped/rebadged, etc.

dealgan

It is a 1975 manufacture. From the chassis number Its in the later part of the year, but I think the "Years" for Porsche ran from September to August, so it is probably a June/July manufacture from the number. Might be in luck yet, as I wont be getting it until July !
or mabye August, Ahem.

chassis numbers 911ABBBBBB - the 'A' tells you the year
Mine has A=5 and BBBBBB is in the last 2/3 of the range for 1975.

I just faxed Porsche in Ludwigsburg, to see if they can shed any light.
I think Porsche in reading will only give you info if you are the current owner, but I havent got it yet !!
.. and they still havent called me back :mad:

added:
The reg is a UK "N" plate, so that would be Aug '74 to July '75 - mabye that would suggest it is before july 1975 ?

Dades

There must a plate on the car somewhere giving the date of manufacture. When I was out at the VRO in April the guy I was dealing with found a small metal plate inside the door frame showing the manufacture date of 01/72.

I didn't have any documentation on the car, but he was happy to use that date, together with my assurance that my particular model was discontinued in 1973, to qualify me for the €50 fee.

In short if you can find a manufacturing date showing the car to be 30+ years old you should be fine.
If you happen to find a later first-registration date - keep it to yourself!

Silvera

Lovely looking car dealgan!
Best of luck with her.

Did you have much problems finding such a mint '75 911 ?

Will you go for a '75' or 'ZV' reg ?

dealgan

I got an almost immediate fax reply from Porsche Ludwigsburg, saying that they have asked Porsche Cars GB to contact me to sort out the info
The seller is also chasing up replies from DVLA and Porsche GB, so hopefully we'll get something back.

I'd like to go for the ZV reg, as I think the black plate will look better on it than a white 75- plate. - Is there anything special you gotta do to get one of those reg's or is it just another box to tick on a form ?

@Silvera
I started looking for a 911 back in July 2004, so almost a year to find this one. I joined TIPEC & PCGB. I looked at a '74 one back in November, which was pretty good, but my finances weren't so good, so I missed it. I was almost tempted by a very cheap '76 one, and had a ppi done on it which was surprisingly pretty good. I was arranging to go over and see it, and probably buy it, when this one popped up, so I went to see this one instead.

This one has a bit on an "ID crisis", as its far from original. It was originally red, and had a "nut & bolt" restoration in '95, with a full engine rebuild & upgrade. The full interior (with electric seats) is from a 930 Turbo, the brakes are from a 3.2 Carrera, grarbox with an external oil cooler, suspension is all uprated, the engine has been converted (properly) to mechanical fuel injection .. with all the usual upgrades like the oil-fed cam-chain tensioners, "turbo" tie-rods, short-shift kit, stainless heat exchangers, etc etc.

Have to stop typing.. I'm drooling again.

Dades

dealgan wrote:

I'd like to go for the ZV reg, as I think the black plate will look better on it than a white 75- plate. - Is there anything special you gotta do to get one of those reg's or is it just another box to tick on a form ?

You don't need to get a ZV reg to have black plates. When you are at the VRO they will ask you which number format you want. They'll then give you a number and it's up to you to get your plates made up in whatever style you want.

Check out Silvera's "Classic Specialists & Suppliers" sticky thread for a link to a company making cool old style plates. I got mine there and was very happy.

Very nice Car BTW.

dealgan

The Atheist wrote:

You don't need to get a ZV reg to have black plates.

Oh, OK, and what's the general feeling about the reg's ZV versus 75- ?
Which looks the best ?

(I just assumed the 75- plates would have to be the "new" style)

Nice motor Athiest

Alfasudcrazy

75 KY --- plates are the coolest

Dades

LOL Alpha.

dealgan wrote:

Oh, OK, and what's the general feeling about the reg's ZV versus 75- ?
Which looks the best ?

I like the idea of showing the year on classics. It's not cool for newer cars - because next year you'll always have last years model...

I think with classics it's a badge you can wear though. First thing people wonder when they see it is how old is it. Tis all personal preference at the end of the day.

G'luck!

PaulK_CCI

dealgan wrote:

It is a 1975 manufacture. From the chassis number Its in the later part of the year, but I think the "Years" for Porsche ran from September to August, so it is probably a June/July manufacture from the number. Might be in luck yet, as I wont be getting it until July !
or mabye August, Ahem.

chassis numbers 911ABBBBBB - the 'A' tells you the year
Mine has A=5 and BBBBBB is in the last 2/3 of the range for 1975.

Hi Dealgan,
From my experience with importing cars and Porsches in particular, it is vital that you have proof the car was first registered before June or July of 1975. The date of manufacture does "officially" not prove anything, although I have had some staff in the VRT offices accept this as enough evidence, but strictly to the letter of the law it is the DATE OF FIRST REGISTRATION that counts, and if you do not have proof of that, especially if the car effectively could be registered in August or December of 1975, they simply will not accept anything else.

You are right in that if your chassis number starts with 911 5 xxxx it is indeed a car that was built from August 1974 until July 1975, which is the Model year 1975 according to Porsche. (B.t.w. DS, you can trace back any Porsche exactly as to model, type and year of manufacture just with the chassis number, not just cars from 1981 onwards). However, for the VRT office it still only counts when the car was physically First Registered.

So unless you can produce some sort of document that the car was first registered prior to the current date 30 years ago, they will simply not accept it as being exempt from VRT and you will most likely be charged the full whack of duties, which would amount to somewhere in the region of 2 to 3k on a 911 of that vintage. Simply the phrase "declared manufactured 1975" leaves the VRT office with a full HALF year that the car theoretically could have been registered in. So you'd have to wait until 1 January 2006 to be completely exempt!

dealgan

Ouch !
Trying to find the date of first reg is a bit of a nightmare.

Porsche Cars GB will only give that info to the current owner, which I am not (yet) !

Grrrrrr.

mannurse

sorry to interupt but was the car re-registered in the uk? i had the same problem on a 1974 porsche 911 imported to uk in 1983. on the uk v5 form it only said year of manufacture 1974 and registered overseas-yes , but didn't give the exact date only the uk registration date(1983). the original date of first registration log book was held by the dvla archives in swansea. they will send you a copy of it for 5pound.

Bluehair

Sweet looking 911, any chance you could tell us how much its setting you back? I'm considering something similar for next year and would appreciate a ballpark figure of what I should be aiming for.

dealgan

mannurse - Yes, exactly the same issue. V5 states 1975, but no exact date.
By coincidence, it was imported to uk in 1983 !
- Do you have to be the current owner before they will give the info ?

<edit>
Problem solved, I think.. seller has info from dvla and from Porsche AG, so hopefully its pre-july 1975 date of first reg !
<edit>

Bluehair - sure.. I'm paying 10,500 Sterling.
I was about to jump on a rhd silver '76 911 for 6500, but it was a totally different machine, & when I added up the cost of the parts to upgrade to this spec, it was no cheaper, and still not so nice looking !
<edit>
I spent almost a full year looking for a 911 .. if you need any pointers, pm me
<edit>

Cheers.

dealgan

Update
Seller got info from dvla and from Porsche AG.
The dvla stuff only gives info since registered in uk in 1983.

The Porsche AG info says it was manufactured march 1975 and sold in Germany in April 1975, but doesnt give date of registration.

Do you think this is sufficient for the vrt folks, or do I need to follow up further ?

Cheers.

ds20prefecture

I'd say you'd be unlucky if that wasn't enough. What is the VRT likely to be, worst case?

dealgan

Hope so.

The lowest figure I was quoted for any 911 was 3450 euro. "depending on condition when examined"

Collecting it tomorrow in UK

PaulK_CCI

I'm afraid it will be a case of 'touch and go'... If you can play the innocent and deal with someone reasonable behind the desk, you could be lucky, but you will need a whole lot of convincing!!!

If you have it on paper that the car was indeed 'sold in Germany' in April, then you might have something there, because one can assume that when a car is sold, it is registered for the road. However, if you deal with someone who sticks to the letter of the regulations, they have enough grounds to deny you the exemption, simply because you have NO Proof of the fact that the car was indeed 1st registered for road use before July 1975 making it 30 years old. They can easily come with the argument that the fact that a car was manufactured at a certain date, it doesnt neccesarily mean it was registered. Sometimes cars would sit in a showroom for half a year or longer before they are registered for the road...

b.t.w you mentioned in an earlier post that the car had an 'ID crisis', it seems that is definitely true, because the fact that the car was first sold in Germany clearly means it's a left hand drive to Right hand drive conversion, and not an original RHD car!!

dealgan

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the pointers.

It is indeed a lhd conversion, which was done during a full nut&bolt restoration in '95 and seems to have been done "properly", according to the inspection I had done on the car, and I've had a good look at the usual panels & wiring loom, etc which all seem good.

I do have it on paper from Porsche that it was "sold in April 1975".

What happens if I go to the vrt office and they wont accept it as 30 years, can I walk away and say "no thanks then, I'll put it in storage" and wait until January , or will I be forced to pay a vrt amount ?

Cheers,
Declan

PaulK_CCI

dealgan wrote:

Hi Paul,
What happens if I go to the vrt office and they wont accept it as 30 years, can I walk away and say "no thanks then, I'll put it in storage" and wait until January , or will I be forced to pay a vrt amount ?

Interesting question dealgan, and I don't really know the answer to that. I think you will be able to walk away and keep the car in storage, but on the other hand they might turn around and say that by handing over the application form, you have started the process and there is no turning back.

I guess the safest way would be to ring a VRT office, perhaps not the one you are planning to go to, and gently enquire as to what would happen. See what they say. By the way, strictly to the letter of the law, it would be illegal to turn around and keep the car in storage. Theoretically you only have 24 or 48 hours to present the car to the VRO and pay any outstanding duties, but I doubt anyone would pursue this. People generally bring the car in and take it up the VRO at their own leisure, sometimes even months after it arrived in the state.

AMurphy

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

75 KY --- plates are the coolest

nice car, but the ol'd hitch spoils it a bit.

shagman

Might be better to say, no thanks I'll sell it in NI / UK . Or "I'll just go down to the cash machine" and drive off... assuming you havn't given them any presonnal details. Good Luck.

AMurphy

A quick question;
is it 30 years from the date/year of manufacture or 30 years from the date of original registration that counts.

the chassis numbering, engine stamps, etc would identify the year of Mfg. However if that is not what is required, could be left hanging forever. ie registratioin docs appear to go missing just about "all the time".

Dades

Date of registration....

I had no docs and they used a manufacturing stamp on the frame as proof. The car was a '72 though, and therefore could be assumed to have been first registered within 3 years of then. If your car was manufactured in late '74 or '75 however it's possible it may have been first registered less than 30 yrs ago.

Each case is judged on it's own I'd say and you could be lucky or unlucky. It would be great to find out how dealgan gets on.

dealgan

Update :
Just off the phone with the revenue folks.

They say they will accept the letter from Porsche stating it was sold in April 1975 as proof over being over 30 years.

Fingers crossed.

Funny conversation, actually. During conversation, the guy said that if the date says November 1975, for example, I shouldn't come near them until December ! I nearly laughed out loud !

I'll let you know how it goes in practice.

Thanks for all the advice folks .. It is much appreciated.

Cheers.

hk797

Dealgan

Interested to hear how you got on.

Where did you go?

What was the routine when you got there?

Hope it all worked out ok.

dealgan

Hi,
I didn't get it done yet .... still waiting for the dvla to send the paperwork.

They told me it would take 4 weeks, so thats nearly up now.

I'll post when I get it done, and let you know what happened.

Cheers.

hk797

Thks for the update Dealgan.

Just starting the paper trail for a 911 I'm keen on.

Might as well learn from you - no point in reinventing the wheel

Best of luck with it.

dealgan

The paperwork I have is :

From DVLA : the full history of all previous owners and registrations, since it was imported to the UK in 1983.

From Porsche AG : Letter of Origin, which states the original date of manufacture, date & country of sale, original specification, and options.

What I'm waiting on is the V5 form which the seller sends back to DVLA stating they are exporting the car, stating my name & address as new owner, which they then stamp post back to me. This is the bit I need to take to the vrt office, together with the letter from Porsche stating date of first sale.
In my case, this is April 1975, so I qualify for the >30 years vrt flat rate.

The current owner can request the porsche info from Porsche centre in Reading, I think it costs around £65 or £70.
They can also request the DVLA history, which costs about £5 iirc.

I'd better warn you though, this is my first attempt at this, so I;m sure there are others in this forum with a lot more experience of the irish revenue folks, and what way they look at things. !

Good luck with yours .. what are you buying / considering ?

hk797

dealgan wrote:

... what are you buying / considering ?

Looking at a 1974 911 S Carerra Coupe LHD - brought into the UK from US in 80's - paperwork is sparse - reconstructing the 74 to 80's bit at the mo - working back from owner to owner - they are all keen to hear where its been since - only for Skype I'd have given up by now :eek: - fingers crossed nearly there - best of luck with yours.

dealgan

hk797 wrote:

Looking at a 1974 911 S Carerra Coupe LHD - brought into the UK from US in 80's - paperwork is sparse - reconstructing the 74 to 80's bit at the mo - working back from owner to owner - they are all keen to hear where its been since - only for Skype I'd have given up by now :eek: - fingers crossed nearly there - best of luck with yours.

Sounds good.. is it an S or a Carrera ?

The Carrera in '74 was a fantastic car .. pretty much the same as the famous '73 Carrera RS, but with the "new" '74 body style.
From memory, the US "Carrera" was the same engine as the US "S" in 74/75.
I think that was around 175/180 bhp, and the ROW Carrera was 210.
Something to do with the emission regulations in the US, I think.
- Thats where the 2.7 engine got a bad reputation in the US due to the emission control stuff making it run very very hot, and subsequently the "pulled heat studs" problem due to the heat.

but you prob knew all that anyway !

Best of luck with it.

Cheers.

dealgan

Update : Just got the paperwork from dvla in the post.

Now, gotta get to the vrt office and get it done.

Cheers,
Declan

dealgan

OK, Success

Went to VRT office yesterday and got my new ZV reg number !

They were very good, (surprisingly ), and the only problem we had was that the guy couldn't find the exact model of my car in his computer to get a statistical code for it.

They took the V5C UK form, even gave me back a copy of it, stamped, stating the new reg number, and took a copy of my letter from Porsche stating the date of sale, etc.

They didn't look at the car at all, surprisingly ! I had thought they would check the chassis number at least !

Anyhow, now to find someone who can do classic plates with a german font on them !

Thanks for all the pointers and suggestions folks.

Cheers.

Dades

Congrats Dealgan, and thanks for letting us know.

Sweetest €50 you'll ever spend.

What does a German font look like? Gothic type?
Think long and hard before you do that! The silver on black plates with the standard old font can't be beat.

I used this crowd as recommended by Silvera and they were great. €40 inc shipping.

G'luck

hk797

dealgan wrote:

OK, Success

Dealgan,

Great to hear that everything worked out in the end.

Make sure to post some photos.

Well wear & keep her between the ditches.

dealgan

Thanks folks

I got plates made on Saturday .. didnt go for the german font, (it is a bit gothic, I saw it on germanplates.com) I went for a "chunky" style digits, silver on black plate with a silver border. Looks well on the black car.
Will post a pic later in the week when I get around to it

Now I need to put a set of boots on it, and get some 3-point belts fitted...

Any suggestions on where I could get that done (the belts).. wouldn't trust myself to fit 'em properly ! .. or, has anyone managed to fit small harness type belts for kids ? I heard of it being done in the back of a 928, but don't know about a 911.

Cheers.

dealgan

pic as promised.

more pics of the car with zv plates are at
http://www.declangrady.com/porsche_pics.htm

Cheers.

Dades

Very nice indeed - you must be a happy man!

I bet the garden hose in this pic is going to see a lot of use for the first couple of months...

Porsches love the hose (and vice versa)

dealgan

The Atheist wrote:

Very nice indeed - you must be a happy man!

Thanks .... Yes I am very happy

The Atheist wrote:

I bet the garden hose in this pic is going to see a lot of use for the first couple of months...

Porsches love the hose (and vice versa)

Yep, wasnt worth tidying the hose away for a few days !

I;ve already washed it more times than I washed my daily car in the past 6 months, and I've only had it a month or so !

Cheers.

hk797

What a beautie!!

Well worth all the hassle.

Not going to be joining the club anytime soon.

One I was looking at was sold before I could sort out paperwork.

The hunt continues ...