Jihad In Dublin

Sand

He is right, the idea of "race" as a biological distinction doesn't hold water anymore, it has very little scientific basis. So what we used to call "race" is really just social/cultural/religious groups. So what makes a person a "Jew" if it is more than simply a religious following?

I doubt Jews would view themselves as a race apart, except in the most extremist cases, but the diaspora and casting out from Israel by the Romans thousands of years ago is part of the shared Jewish heritage - be it religious or nationalistic. Obviously 2000 odd years on that heritage means less and less in either case.

And if it is simply a religion following, saying one religion has more of a right to a piece of land because of the beliefs of that religion doesn't really fly in this day and age, especially if the religion claims that they are promised the land. I don't think the Muslims in the middle east give a flying hoot about what Jewish people believe their god promised them any more than Jews would listen to Muslims if they said Allah wanted them to take back all of Isreal.

Well, the Zionist movements would argue that in history nice guys finish last.
As for their right to the land - its a moot point. They have it, and they have the means of holding it, and the Gaza strip aside they dont seem terribly anxious to hand it back. In the real world, the Palestinians only right to the land is they used to live there, that they took it fair and square from the people who lived there before hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Israelis would have the same point of view. And as you said above, its not the rightness or wrongness of the cause that counts.

swimtwobirds

Sorry, got dragged off to actually work. Disgrace.

bonkey wrote:

Can you explain why?

Weelll, for one we don't have a race/culture/religion orientated (at least in part) around a small church in the Austrian veld , its surrounding hills and our enforced exodus from it 2000 years ago, the nature of said exodus & continuing persecution in the intervening centuries being one of the defining aspects of our shared heritage. I don't have a cultural memory of being a Celt in Austria; they sure as hell have a cultural memory of being Jews in Israel. And if they were to forget bits, they could always look up the bible..

bonkey wrote:

Are you suggesting that the Jewish right to Israel as a nation is somehow dependant on the state being recognised by the US?

Well no.. But in realpolitok terms it was conceivable, indeed it happened, that they got that recognition. That a forcible Irish Celtic renewal occupation of a section of Austria would be similarly recognised is pretty inconceivable. American support doesn't, I suppose, make something right, but it may well make it a reality. God knows; lately they've taken to calling themselves "history's actors" or as the scary new neo-con spin puts it "We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality..."

Niiiiice. Bit off topic that, but what a freaky quote.

Wicknight wrote:

Even some members of the army have refused to be stationed in Palestine, and faced accusations of being disturters and traitors because of it. Good on them

Yep. Wasn't there a thing about a bunch of them writing an open letter.. saying that they were expected to go out after a given Palestinian attack and basically ensure that an eye for an eye was observed, civilian or no? I mean, given that the Israelis have all the advantages of proper western economic & political ties, they should be getting slapped over the head by all quarters (western diplomatic) for this kind of carry on. Its crazy, and in this respect, methinks they're their own worst enemy..

Boggle

As for their right to the land - its a moot point. They have it, and they have the means of holding it, and the Gaza strip aside they dont seem terribly anxious to hand it back. In the real world, the Palestinians only right to the land is they used to live there, that they took it fair and square from the people who lived there before hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Israelis would have the same point of view. And as you said above, its not the rightness or wrongness of the cause that counts.

Essentially you are saying that might is right....

sceptre

Boggle wrote:

Essentially you are saying that might is right....

Straw man. Obviously he's saying no more than "might is rather effective".

Zombrex

Boggle wrote:

Essentially you are saying that might is right....

I think he is saying there is no point arguing over if Israel had a right to exist in 1946 (or when ever it was offically recongised), because the fact is it does exisit now and not a lot is going to change that.

One the other hand, Israelis still use the "promise from God" excuse for the expansion of settlements and the treatment of the Palestinians. I say a BBC doc a couple of years ago (2 or 3) about American Jews who are emmigrating to Israel and living in the settlements and they were claiming that it is their right to do so because the land was promised to them by God, it was "their land" even though these people were born and lived in the US

Boggle

I think he is saying there is no point arguing over if Israel had a right to exist in 1946 (or when ever it was offically recongised), because the fact is it does exisit now and not a lot is going to change that.

I don't think that anyone (no matter how imaginitive his imagination) could argue that Israel had a right to exist back then. So how can you argue that because they were able to take it and hold it that they are now justified in their actions against Palestinian freedom fighters/terrorists.

Would you have condemned the French Resistance?

Sand

I say a BBC doc a couple of years ago (2 or 3) about American Jews who are emmigrating to Israel and living in the settlements and they were claiming that it is their right to do so because the land was promised to them by God, it was "their land" even though these people were born and lived in the US

I saw an even better documentary about these fundamentalist Christian Americans who absolutely championed the Israelis taking back the Holy Land, and feted Sharon when he visited them. Why did they love Israeli expansion so much when they werent Jewish?

Apparently the creation of Israel and its struggle against the Arab nations around it is a sign of the coming apocalypse and the return of Jesus. They were effectively cheerleading for the end of the world. The freaks.

I think he is saying there is no point arguing over if Israel had a right to exist in 1946 (or when ever it was offically recongised), because the fact is it does exisit now and not a lot is going to change that.

True.

I don't think that anyone (no matter how imaginitive his imagination) could argue that Israel had a right to exist back then. So how can you argue that because they were able to take it and hold it that they are now justified in their actions against Palestinian freedom fighters/terrorists.

I think you should prepare a thesis proving the Israelis have no right to the land they hold and send it the the Israeli embassy. When they realise their frightful mistake theyll certainly head off back to Europe, the US and Russia. Probably all a big misunderstanding.

Look at the Germans - after WW2 their was a massive, deliberate policy of ethnically cleansing German communities that had existed for centuries from Eastern Europe. Civillians were attacked, beaten, thrown out of their homes and marched hundreds of miles to the west. Borders were redrawn and swathes of "old" Germany were handed over to the Warsaw pact states. Was that wrong or right? Did these ethnic German civillians get what was coming to them? Conquerers justice perhaps?

Either way, it happened, and whilst it may be recognised as wrong now that doesnt change the fact that it happened and its pretty much irreversible. Germans are understandbly unwilling to go round moaning about it.

And its the same with Israel - it exists and thats all there is to it. As to its right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, thats debateable and relevant today. 1946 isnt.

Would you have condemned the French Resistance?

As for the French Resistance - Look, Im tired of all this "Ohh such and such a group that are generally respected did X, hence X is respectable". If Martin Luther King raped a child would that make raping children something admirable?

Its a ****e argument. If the French Resistance had an accepted policy of recruiting people - including a boy of 10 who was so scared he bawled his eyes out at the checkpoint he was sent to attack whilst the IDF defused the bomb - and sending them on suicide bombing missions against school buses and birthday parties then they would be terrorists. End of.

And Im tired of the "desperation" exscuse for Palestinian terrorism. The Israelis have as much right to the "desperation" exscuse - they were being stuffed wholesale into ovens 60 years ago, theyre effectively constantly at war with their neighbours who are at the very least funding the terrorists who are killing their children, attacking schools, discos, pizza parlours. Their enemies are so fanatical they raise their children to be suicide bombers - Im sure their must be great grounds for negotiation in such an enviroment. You think they arent desperate too?

Boggle

I think you should prepare a thesis proving the Israelis have no right to the land they hold and send it the the Israeli embassy. When they realise their frightful mistake theyll certainly head off back to Europe, the US and Russia. Probably all a big misunderstanding.

Sarcasm really doesn't suit you...

Look at the Germans - after WW2 their was a massive, deliberate policy of ethnically cleansing German communities that had existed for centuries from Eastern Europe. Civillians were attacked, beaten, thrown out of their homes and marched hundreds of miles to the west. Borders were redrawn and swathes of "old" Germany were handed over to the Warsaw pact states. Was that wrong or right? Did these ethnic German civillians get what was coming to them? Conquerers justice perhaps?

Not even almost similar. Weak.

And its the same with Israel - it exists and thats all there is to it. As to its right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, thats debateable and relevant today. 1946 isnt.

How long so do you have to hold conquered land before a people should give up their claim for it?

And Im tired of the "desperation" exscuse for Palestinian terrorism. The Israelis have as much right to the "desperation" exscuse - they were being stuffed wholesale into ovens 60 years ago, theyre effectively constantly at war with their neighbours who are at the very least funding the terrorists who are killing their children, attacking schools, discos, pizza parlours.

1) The Palestinians never threw them into any ovens so why take their land?
2) Why the hell wouldn't the palestinians be attacking the Israeli's when they threw the people off their land and stripped them of their rights? And this still in living memory...

As for the French Resistance - Look, Im tired of all this "Ohh such and such a group that are generally respected did X, hence X is respectable". If Martin Luther King raped a child would that make raping children something admirable?

You seem under the impresion that the French resistance were angels...

bonkey

Sand wrote:

The Israelis have as much right to the "desperation" exscuse

Yes indeed they do. And just like the Palestinians, they too are wrong in their use of it.

jc

Horeb

The Amount of Anti-Semitism on this post is digusting from idiots who have never seen or been in Israel, the Fourth Reich is here and don't annoy me with this Palestinian Tripe you all go on with let me see:

1.) Gaza = people there are egypitian and Yugoslavian Muslim and hold Egypitian passports must be egyptian

2.) West Bank of the River Jordan = mmmm Jordanians with Jordanian passports.


A Football match and people have a stab at sports men and supporters the ignorance of this filthy country, oh yeah we are supposed christians mmm we pay for perverts to run riot in ours churches and we are so pure.


I was proud to wear the Israeli Flag at the match amongst the filthy Irish Behaviour, disgusting foul morons must be some here...

Israel will have the last laugh and you can all say and do what you want the fact is that the PA is the Pirate State and the Lands of Judea and Samaria will be in ISRAELI hands again and for good.


You are all driving by western sh1te media and bullsh1t but you know it all.

As for the filthy IRA who kill young girls, 30 years ago and then take the blame away from the brits are'nt they lovely to get involved in protests


DID IRISH FANS SORRY DRUNKARDS get a reception like that in Tel Aviv mmmmmmmmmm NO. Why because the Israeli people have more Balls and Respect that the Filth of this Island and anyone of you little ANTI-SEMTIC BASTARDS want some I will be at the next boards beer whenever it is and lets see how hard and dedicated you are to the FARCE that is the Palestinian cause.

Hobbes

Horeb wrote:

The Amount of Anti-Semitism on this post is digusting from idiots who have never seen or been in Israel

You do know that Muslims are Semites too.

Btw, odds on it was just a handful of idiots at the match (as mentioned earlier) and Israeli newspaper tried to blow it out of proportion.

For someone that condones killing people in other countries I wouldn't value your opinion on the subject of what is fair or not.

Victor

Horeb wrote:

anyone of you little ANTI-SEMTIC BASTARDS want some I will be at the next boards beer whenever it is and lets see how hard and dedicated you are to the FARCE that is the Palestinian cause.

Hmmm, fightin words. :rolleyes:

Ps the beers were last night.

CiaranC

Horeb wrote:

the ignorance of this filthy country

Well done, post reported.

A tad hypocritical to condemn critics of your countries policies as "disgusting foul morons", "idiots" and "filth", no?

You are as bad as the handful of fools at landsdowne that this nonsensical story is based on.

gandalf

Horeb wrote:

I was proud to wear the Israeli Flag at the match amongst the filthy Irish Behaviour, disgusting foul morons must be some here...

That is a personal insult imho against all who have posted on this thread.

anyone of you little ANTI-SEMTIC BASTARDS want some I will be at the next boards beer whenever it is and lets see how hard and dedicated you are to the FARCE that is the Palestinian cause.

Again a personal insult and then a threat imho of violence. For this you are banned from Politics for a month.

Screwdriver

Horeb wrote:

oh yeah we are supposed christians mmm we pay for perverts to run riot in ours churches and we are so pure.

Who are the perverts who run the church? I've met priests all my life and none of them were perverts!

Horeb wrote:

I was proud to wear the Israeli Flag at the match amongst the filthy Irish Behaviour, disgusting foul morons must be some here...

They should have behaved like the Israeli goalie so...

Horeb wrote:

DID IRISH FANS SORRY DRUNKARDS get a reception like that in Tel Aviv mmmmmmmmmm NO. Why because the Israeli people have more Balls and Respect that the Filth of this Island and anyone of you little ANTI-SEMTIC BASTARDS

You seem to take this personally

Zombrex

Horeb wrote:

The Amount of Anti-Semitism on this post is digusting from idiots who have never seen or been in Israel

The "If-you-criticise-the-Isreal-government-you-are-being-ant-semitic" line is an insult to the Jewish religion and the struggle of the Jewish people. The Israeli government does not speak for the Jewish religion, or for all Jews. As has been pointed out, a large portion of Jews around the world and with-in Israel are disgusted by the way the Israeli government and army have behaved in the last few years, with the destruction of whole communities, the fencing off of people from their land and support, the indiscrimiate killing of innocents, including children, news journalists, aid workers and protestors.

You sir should be ashamed of yourself, you insult the proud Jewish religion that for thousands of years as taught peace and tolerence, and you insult the memory of the millions of Jewish people who have struggled against real discrimination and real anti-semitism.

:mad:

swimtwobirds

blimee. Seeing as how horeb can't actually reply any longer, I'd reckon he's probably eating his keyboard by now, whilst putting his fist repeatedly throught the crt..

AnimalRights

How many filthy Irish did he take out at this boards drinkie meet?
Riveting read.
Bit late now but I was at the protest at Central bank b4 the match and the only trouble there was from 3-4 Israelis who came over to me and uttered the usual " you don't know jack sh1t" etc

sceptre

AnimalRights wrote: »

Bit late now

About five years - just a wee bit. While old threads dredged up aren't necessarily automatically locked, starting a new one is often best, especially after that passage of time on a current affairs discussion, even if the added information is especially important, which with all due respect in this case it isn't. Resuscitating old threads almost for the sake of it isn't the done thing.

Locked accordingly.