Testing my Navigation & Layout

Rollo Tamasi

Hi Guys,

Its early days in the development of this site, only started this week, but nonetheless i would like to get some early feedback. So far its just the skeleton layout that i have really started

The menu will obviously be tidied up later.

The site itself is for some Waterford based DJ's who have mixes to download.

http://www.chef-shop.com/test1.htm

Rollo Tamasi

ohh yeah, in case ye where wondering chef-shop is not the URL that the site will be hosted at when completed. Its just a domain i own.

mneylon

Is there a non-flash version?

ninebeanrows

One thing i'd suggest is distinguishing the different names of
the guys i dont really know what im clicking as the names are
all together and kinda mixed up.


That's all really i have to say

Cheers and good luck

Rollo Tamasi

no there is no non flash version. I don't really see the need to develop for a "html visitor" when i can use flash to create a better website. Thats just my opinion thou.

I know what you mean wheathercheck about the names, i'll probably add some kind of "identifier" or description to each persons name to distinguish the type of music they like and stuff.

But besides from that what did ye think?

aidan_walsh

Crap, crap and crap again. Found it hard to find my way around, peoples names didn't lead to what was expected ect. Try harder.

ninebeanrows

Hi again i meant by the fact that the names are all mushed together
of on will and when you click on onw you dont really know what your
clicking on. Spread them out or something or give each persons
a different colour or something to that affect.

It's not brilliant but 6/10 for me

mneylon

Using Flash for the sake of it does not make it any better.
There are many reasons also why using Flash only is bad idea.

rsynnott

Am I the only one who refuses to view flash websites, nowadays? There's really no point in them; they're inevitably worse than html.

Rollo Tamasi

aidan_walsh wrote:

Crap, crap and crap again.

Thanks for being so blunt. I'm sure everything you've tried your hand at has smelt of roses

maxheadroom

rsynnott wrote:

Am I the only one who refuses to view flash websites, nowadays? There's really no point in them; they're inevitably worse than html.

No, you're not. They also always seem to feel sluggish when compared to a well written HTML site.

Rollo Tamasi

I know I’ll have to change the positioning of the names, those buttons that are there at the moment are only stop-gap. The things I wanted to get feedback the most on are the illustrations of the person, dj mixer and turntable and the speed of the scroll.

As for the argument over flash and html...

I can't stand basic HTML websites, I find a lot of them boring and simple, and seldom would I find a HTML site which would interest me design wise. Web Development has come a long way since the mid 90's when HTML was standard. Flash allows for good interaction and if done correctly will make your website stand out from others.

Rsynnott - what are your reasons for arguing against flash over HTML?

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

Rsynnott - what are your reasons for arguing against flash over HTML?

First, because it's about the only thing I still need 32bit libraries for. But that's just a quibble.

You need to be using a graphical terminal to view it; most html websites can be viewed on a text console.

The modern UI has been designed by thousands of highly skilled professionals over about 30 years. The UI of the average flash web app, on the other hand, has been designed in a few days, by someone with questionable knowledge of UI design. This leads to horrors like odd variant scroll bars and buttons, and makes a site far more awkward to navigate.

Flash is inclined to make NOISES. I prefer things not to make noises unless I ask them.

Flash is completely non-accessible. It's completely unusable for the blind.

You can't deep-link into it.

I've never seen a useful flash website yet, or one that was anything better than a complete annoyance to use.

Serbian

There's a slight problem with the text of the links, you need to click exactly on the text for the button to work. To fix it, create a key frame in the 'Hit' state of the button and draw a rectangle covering the whole text.

cgarvey

I echo the flash concerns...

You need some sort of non-clickable separators between the names.. the links don't match up. I clicked the spaced area between Martin and Roche, and got Daz' page.

The illustration of Dave is good, but is a bit too prominent, I think.. probably to do with the colours.

Menu wasn't all that clear (I didn't know I had to click on it to get the actual menu, I just thought that it was empty). Maybe it should be on a tab looking shaded area or something.

HTH

Rollo Tamasi

thanks for the input lads,
I'll probably post a link to the website once its finished in this forum.

Fionn

regarding the question of Flash!
generally speaking i tend to click on the "skip flash intro" button if there's one if not sometimes i just browse away from the site. I guess i'm not much impressed with animations and stuff moving around the screen etc. and mostly my speakers aren't switched on so i wouldn't hear stuff either.

however i do think some of the sites offering Flash games and other entertaining applets are very well done and really shows how powerful it can be.

mewso

Fionn wrote:

however i do think some of the sites offering Flash games and other entertaining applets are very well done and really shows how powerful it can be.

What flash is best used for imho. Not for a site designed to provide information. If basic html sites are boring should we be bringing back the marquee? From a presentation point of view a banner should not take up half the screen so that you have to scroll down the screen to see the actual text in it's entirety.

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

As for the argument over flash and html...

I can't stand basic HTML websites, I find a lot of them boring and simple, and seldom would I find a HTML site which would interest me design wise. Web Development has come a long way since the mid 90's when HTML was standard. Flash allows for good interaction and if done correctly will make your website stand out from others.

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

mneylon

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

Nicely put

Rollo Tamasi

ok then!
I can see this is a very one sided discussion on Flash so far. I do understand where ye are coming from with your opinions, i recoiginise that not all flash websites are good. I have seen awfull flash sites.

Is there anyone in this WEBMASTER/FLASH forum who actually likes flash on websites?

Legend_Killer

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

Oh god shoot me now, have you ever actually built an eLearning application? the way most people learn is through "interaction" which is why flash is considered the way forwards in many peoples eyes.

I love flash websites but only when done well...... done well meaning when it actually takes the aspects of flash that HTML cant implement and displays them in a manner that doesnt take an age to load up. if i see a pre loader then i automatically assume that the site isnt put together properly. If it is because theres so much content in the site then its time to revert back to HTML or maybe combine that with DHTML which can now provide some limited ammount of interaction.

all in all, flash is excellent and just because you dont know how to design with it doesnt mean that you shouldnt embrace the work of others that are making use of it.

rsynnott

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

It's not so much artists that are the problem, a good artist can produce a very nice, usable, beautiful website. It's those who THINK they're artists; they're the problem

I don't think ANYONE really likes flash websites. They were a popular gimmick around 2000, live Java applets all over the place and VRML and animated GIFS and DHTML weirdness and other abominations in the eye of god Let them die, already.

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

I don't think ANYONE really likes flash websites. They were a popular gimmick around 2000, live Java applets all over the place and VRML and animated GIFS and DHTML weirdness and other abominations in the eye of god Let them die, already.

I don't understand how you can be so arrogant as to dismiss the possibilities that flash can deliver to an audience. Surely you can learn something from it, and even if you think it’s been used inappropriately why don't you open up you eyes and mind to.... Flash Remoting...Flash Audio Streaming...E-Learning...Flash Video Conferencing....Flash Gaming....Macromedia Captivate & Flash Projector as a cross platform demonstration and learning tool. Wake Up Rsynnott its 2005.

I have used HTML, JavaScript, ASP & Coldfusion to deliver websites, as well as flash. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to a medium such as flash just because it can't be read by screen readers and so on......

98% of Internet Users are flash enabled. That’s a massive audience, and a popular choice for new media development, if you can't hack it then go live in a cave.

Rollo Tamasi

hostyle wrote:

your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I don't understand how you can be so arrogant as to dismiss the possibilities that flash can deliver to an audience. Surely you can learn something from it, and even if you think it’s been used inappropriately why don't you open up you eyes and mind to.... Flash Remoting...Flash Audio Streaming...E-Learning...Flash Video Conferencing....Flash Gaming....Macromedia Captivate & Flash Projector as a cross platform demonstration and learning tool. Wake Up Rsynnott its 2005.

Exactly; Flash should be dead by now. There's nothing wrong with Flash games and cartoons, but basing a WEBSITE on it?

Show me just one usable flash-based website, and I'll relent

Damn, it's a pity the HELLO KITTY EXHIBITION COMMITTEE website is gone. It was a classic example of flash by the schizophrenic.

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I have used HTML, JavaScript, ASP & Coldfusion to deliver websites, as well as flash. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to a medium such as flash just because it can't be read by screen readers and so on......

Why not try doing your websites in APL, or TIFFs, or large lumps of rock engraved with crap and delivered to your user's doors? Just because a technology is available doesn't mean it should necessarily be USED.

ColdFusion; meh, never saw the point; why pay for something like that?

ASP? Not in itself a bad platform (tho not a good one either; lets people away with doing silly things) but seems to attract a disproportionate number of mad people (see http://www.thedailywtf.com). ASP.NET is much better; if they'd get rid of silly things like "On Error Resume Next" it'd come close to being a decent platform.

JavaScript; no excuses for that. (In fairness, there are legitimate uses of JavaScript. About three of them).

=Rollo Tamasi wrote:

98% of Internet Users are flash enabled. That’s a massive audience, and a popular choice for new media development, if you can't hack it then go live in a cave.

That doesn't mean they like endless animated crap coming out of their screen when they're looking fora website.

I repeat the challenge; show me a usable, pleasant flash website which does something that can't be done with conventional weapons.

Serbian

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

Many people have strong opinions on what Flash should and shouldn't me. Personally I'm not a fan of Flash, but I agree that it has it's place. The best uses of Flash I have seen have either been offline or online games (oh Roberto Baggio Magical Kicks, where are you? ).

The truth is, it isn't really that difficult to find a good use and a bad use of Flash, it's just all about personal preference.

The true test is typing "Flash is Evil" and "Flash is Cool" into Google!

Cool wins 3,570 to 698

rsynnott

Serbian wrote:

The truth is, it isn't really that difficult to find a good use

Er, what makes that in any way better than the same thing done with CSS, except the slowness, and the not obeying middle-clickness ("CTRL-click" for Windows users).[/quote]

Serbian wrote:

The true test is typing "Flash is Evil" and "Flash is Cool" into Google!

Cool wins 3,570 to 698

Meh. The majority of Americans, when polled, still say that Saddam Husein was directly involved in the WTC thing. Many people are irredemably stupid.

Rollo Tamasi

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish
Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

Learning
http://java.sys-con.com/read/44575_f.htm

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

Meh. The majority of Americans, when polled, still say that Saddam Husein was directly involved in the WTC thing. Many people are irredemably stupid.

Just stop thinking, get some sex or whatever your into.
Lighten up man

rsynnott

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish

Eek. Would you actually prefer to use that THING to something that stayed still??!

Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

This one insists I don't have the latest version of flash player, against all available evidence; I suspect it's confused by my operating system.

Learning
http://java.sys-con.com/read/44575_f.htm

Well, as long as you're not planning on writing APPLETS. Java is a lovely language for all sorts of purposes. But not APPLETS. Re-arrange the letters, remove one or two letters and substitute other letters, and what do you get? SATAN, that's what

Just stop thinking, get some sex or whatever your into.
Lighten up man

Oh, this is just my way of unwinding after a hard day. Sex can wait.