Testing my Navigation & Layout

angry_fox

hostyle wrote:

Bloody artists ... the lot of them should be taken out and shot.

The internet is about exchange of information believe it or not, not gimmickry or "interaction". My browser is an application - and I trust its UI - not your Flash mini-app or its retarded clunky sideways scroll. Where the intuitiveness in that?

First off ive taken offence to your little remark. Would i have any last requests before i faced the firing squad? While i could argue with you about how the internet is so much more than just the "exchange of information" i wont cause as the old saying goes "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat
you with experience"

While everyone here seems to have an undying hatred for flash, its not all bad. Flash is an excellent tool to create websites and great for interactivity with users especially for online tutorials. Also over comes browser incompatibilities and flash developers nowadays appear to be earning more than php/mysql/html experts. Flash is all about using your creativity to make something looks good for the user while keeping it simple for them. Flash is tool that in the right hands, can be used to do some great things but in the wrongs hands..........

Rollo, your sites need some work but if you need a hand just IM me.

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~hostyle/

Nice site mate.
I'm just loving the way you can call my navigation retarded.
Wheres the intuitiveness in that?

Thats not a website, thats art. Plus its about 6 years old. What was your point by the way? You asked for opinions on your site - I gave you mine. I didn't ask for opinions on my old college homepage.

If you don't like my opinion, that fair enough - its something you should learn to accept when posting your work for review on highly public web sites.

optiplexgx270

Weathercheck wrote:

One thing i'd suggest is distinguishing the different names of
the guys i dont really know what im clicking as the names are
all together and kinda mixed up.


That's all really i have to say

Cheers and good luck

i agree fully maybe highlight tyhe name on mouse over?

jmcc

Flash is ok for somethings. Flash is bad for navigation without a HTML backup. This is because searchengines have to use an external parser to break the links and text out of flash. The way I, and most search engine operators think, if the site owner can't be arsed to provide decent navigation why should we bother to include it in our indices? The web still is a textual medium. If you are not in the search engines you are nowhere.

Regards...jmcc

Rollo Tamasi

jmcc wrote:

Flash is ok for somethings. Flash is bad for navigation without a HTML backup. This is because searchengines have to use an external parser to break the links and text out of flash. The way I, and most search engine operators think, if the site owner can't be arsed to provide decent navigation why should we bother to include it in our indices? The web still is a textual medium. If you are not in the search engines you are nowhere.

Regards...jmcc

Good man, excellent post.
I'll probably end up developing a html compliant version for the reasons you just mentioned.

Rollo Tamasi

rsynnott wrote:

Oh, this is just my way of unwinding after a hard day. Sex can wait.

lol

Fionn

this is sorta getting into a bit of a slagging match eh?

i guess if you ask people to review your site you can expect some comments may not be to your liking. I suppose in the end you have to go with what your satisfied with.

I've used flash as a learning/presentation tool before, what it can do is great as I'm sure are other animation software progs, but I'm not altogether convinced about a whole website made in flash tho.

What i would like to see is choice! if the user chooses not to run a script or applet whatever, shouldn't they have that choice? after all isn't it the user that the site is made for not the designer! A warning dialog or something would be good.

Along with slow flash sites another annoying thing i've noticed is an URL that comprises of an embedded PDF file, these tend to lock up the browser til the file is loaded, i shudder to think what thats like on narrowband, at least with flash you often get the option to skip and you can always browse away to someplace else.

hostyle

Legend_Killer wrote:

I love flash websites but only when done well...... done well meaning when it actually takes the aspects of flash that HTML cant implement and displays them in a manner that doesnt take an age to load up.

This is the same argument thrown out every time someone criticises Flash. Go on then - show me one good, well-done Flash website that couldn't have been implemented in HTML and loads quicker than a HTML vversion would. One that has actual content and isn't a game or other video masturbation - one where individual sections can be bookmarked, that can be indexed by search engines, and that works as well for poeple with disabilities as without.

Rollo Tamasi

optiplexgx270 wrote:

i agree fully maybe highlight tyhe name on mouse over?

I have changed the layout a little bit since i uploaded the files. I'll add more identifiying features to let the user know what each button leads to, add a css, change the height and width of the iFrames dispalying the HTML pages. And probably put an audio stream using flash remoting below the :

Home | Events | Archieved Mixes | Forum | Guestbook | Mailing List | Contact

menu.

There is much more features that need to be added. And don't worry lads, when its finished i'll post the link in here and ye can all have a go at riping it to bits!!!! (but get in line first!)

hostyle

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

www.paulfrank.com

http://www.frenchconnection.com/index_1.htm

IMO, the two websites above made good use of flash to deliver their products.
French Connection - Very Stlyish
Paul Frank - Consistent to his fashion image

FFS. Neither are usable whatsoever, all sorts of silly animation - every time you visit or click the same button again. Popup windows ... All sorts of waiting around and other visual masturbation - its supposd to be a website not a playstation game.

Rollo Tamasi

Fionn wrote:

this is sorta getting into a bit of a slagging match eh?

i guess if you ask people to review your site you can expect some comments may not be to your liking. I suppose in the end you have to go with what your satisfied with.

I've used flash as a learning/presentation tool before, what it can do is great as I'm sure are other animation software progs, but I'm not altogether convinced about a whole website made in flash tho.

What i would like to see is choice! if the user chooses not to run a script or applet whatever, shouldn't they have that choice? after all isn't it the user that the site is made for not the designer! A warning dialog or something would be good.

Along with slow flash sites another annoying thing i've noticed is an URL that comprises of an embedded PDF file, these tend to lock up the browser til the file is loaded, i shudder to think what thats like on narrowband, at least with flash you often get the option to skip and you can always browse away to someplace else.

hopefully the slagging match has ended now.

The site will be designed with the user in mind, giving them choice, your just going to have to wait till the project is completed to see a non flash based version thou!
I agree with your pdf comments. My father has a 56K connection, each time he accesses a pdf website, IE crashes.

rsynnott

hostyle wrote:

This is the same argument thrown out every time someone criticises Flash. Go on then - show me one good, well-done Flash website that couldn't have been implemented in HTML and loads quicker than a HTML vversion would. One that has actual content and isn't a game or other video masturbation - one where individual sections can be bookmarked, that can be indexed by search engines, and that works as well for poeple with disabilities as without.

They can't. because, erm, there's no such thing.

And yes, embedding PDFs and other nasty things in a web page without warning should be a death penalty offence

anthonymcg

Flash is all about adding value. The navigation on that site isn't really intuitive plus your using the same graphic and then slide scrolling across to different guys. Just don't see the benefit of it over a nicely designed CSS + Javascript solution.

mewso

rsynnott wrote:

ASP.NET is much better; if they'd get rid of silly things like "On Error Resume Next" it'd come close to being a decent platform.

Long gone. Try Catch has been there from the start with .Net, easily the best server side platform out there and way ahead with version 2.

Actually on this Flash row AJAX (terrible name) is worth looking at for an improved user experience. I honestly don't like a flash intro. Give me a menu with a link to "My flash stuff" so I can make the choice.

Legend_Killer

musician wrote:

Actually on this Flash row AJAX (terrible name) is worth looking at for an improved user experience. I honestly don't like a flash intro. Give me a menu with a link to "My flash stuff" so I can make the choice.

AJAX does look imopressive but is there much out there on it at the moment with regard to sites that will actually run through how to learn it step by step?

rsynnott

musician wrote:

Long gone. Try Catch has been there from the start with .Net, easily the best server side platform out there and way ahead with version 2.

But "On Error Resume Next" is STILL AVAILABLE. They should have gotten rid of it immediately. And it certainly is not the best server side platform out there; try Java.

mewso

rsynnott wrote:

But "On Error Resume Next" is STILL AVAILABLE. They should have gotten rid of it immediately. And it certainly is not the best server side platform out there; try Java.

Oh dear we have a choice. Try Java?, no thanks. We'll have to disagree on that one.

rsynnott

I think that ASP (and to some extent PHP) lower the bar a bit much; they allow people who aren't, to be honest, very good, to write interactive websites. "On error resume next" is a good example; it's a copout. Inevitably, these websites are never quite right; nearly all ASP websites with a db backend are vulnerable to SQL injection, for instance. Languages which force the user to learn a bit are better, IMO.

mewso

I think RAD, caching, server controls and native sql data access (with sql server stored procedures) are far preferable in a development world where sql injection is well documented and easily avoided using the aforementioned stored procedures. On Error Resume Next was left in Asp.Net (an important distinction from asp) to enable vb developers to make the transition. It will soon be gone I reckon. Developers can of course learn not to use it. We can expect them to want to learn can't we, not just force them.
Asp.Net 2 with server controls that will render valid xhtml and accessable content will raise the bar even more.

rsynnott

musician wrote:

I think RAD, caching, server controls and native sql data access (with sql server stored procedures) are far preferable in a development world where sql injection is well documented and easily avoided using the aforementioned stored procedures. On Error Resume Next was left in Asp.Net (an important distinction from asp) to enable vb developers to make the transition. It will soon be gone I reckon. Developers can of course learn not to use it. We can expect them to want to learn can't we, not just force them.
Asp.Net 2 with server controls that will render valid xhtml and accessable content will raise the bar even more.

But it ISN'T avoided, that's the problem. This is more a cultural problem than a language one; most ASP/database tutorials tell people to do things like: query = "SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE mycol = '" & myvar & "'", whereas I've never seen a PHP/database tutorial that didn't advocate the use of addslashes, or a JDBC tutorial that didn't use prepared statements. And stored procedures are, of course, database-specific.

What precisely do you mean by caching and native sql data access? Caching what?

No, you can quite reasonably force them not to use such a horribly dangerous construct. It should never have gone in in the first place, and should have been removed as soon as possible. Another horror (tho in fairness I'm fairly sure it's been addressed in ASP.NET) is the out-of-order boolean evaluation.

Goodness, yes, server controls which rended valid xhtml will raise the bar to where J2SE was in about 2001!

jammin

hostyle wrote:

FFS. Neither are usable whatsoever, all sorts of silly animation - every time you visit or click the same button again. Popup windows ... All sorts of waiting around and other visual masturbation - its supposd to be a website not a playstation game.

From reading this above , and your comments about all artists needing to be shot... and other entertaining yet strangely depressing posts in this thread...
I can only deduce that you mr. hostyle are an embittered middle aged type headin for 40 at about 80mph but you forgot to have a life and we are all to blame now. :rolleyes:

It's a pity that this posters in this thread couldn't leave their prejudice and bias against flash alone. Its a simple fact that flash is very useful for certain parts of a website and when used in conjunction with a bit of dreamweaver the aesthetic qualities are undeniable.( yes 'hostyle', aesthetic is a real word, and quite important in todays language, you should't be needing it i'd imagine.)

Wheres the sense in saying flash should be dead by now, flash should die etc.... (you know who you are...) I don't see it going away yet, do you?
Granted we have all seen the websites annoying enough to drive a nun to drink with animated buttons and music and madness flying all over the place...
But this gives me more amusement than anything, a classic mistake.

hostyle

jammin wrote:

I can only deduce that you mr. hostyle are an embittered middle aged type headin for 40 at about 80mph but you forgot to have a life and we are all to blame now. :rolleyes:

Here, have a lolly. I applaud your deduction skills. You could be the next Sherlock Holmes.

Rollo Tamasi

hmm, only one way to solve this tiff......
A FIGHT TILL DEATH!!(or untill someone is hurt(really badly))!!

rsynnott

jammin wrote:

It's a pity that this posters in this thread couldn't leave their prejudice and bias against flash alone. Its a simple fact that flash is very useful for certain parts of a website and when used in conjunction with a bit of dreamweaver the aesthetic qualities are undeniable.( yes 'hostyle', aesthetic is a real word, and quite important in todays language, you should't be needing it i'd imagine.)

Really? Examples? Most of the ones I've seen look rather dreadful; on the other hand I've seen some very pretty HTML sites.

jammin wrote:

Wheres the sense in saying flash should be dead by now, flash should die etc.... (you know who you are...) I don't see it going away yet, do you?

Most corporate and commercial websites have removed it. Most "web design" sites have removed it. It's now largely the domain of hobbyists.

And for those sick of flash-tastic rubbish sites but who occasionally want to view a flash movie, there's this: http://flashblock.mozdev.org/