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Cj

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Anyone see the programme on Haughey last night? Very interesting programme. Although they seem to have culled a lot of interviews from the Seven Ages series. Who would have thought that one of the key reasons for Haughey's rise to power was his good looks (according to the show)?!

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DadaKopf

Hehe.

I thought it was good, fairly well balanced. The whole style of the documentary, though - it sort of built him up into this towering world historical figure, with the music and use of dramatics and spooky lighting, when, really, he was a bully and a crook, but a smart bully and crook.

*Edit: actually it wasn't even that well balanced. More of a "ain't he a loveable rogue" kinda thing. PTOOEE!

CJhaughey

Hah! Thats slanderous talk , you'd want to watch yourself.......talking like that!

Andrew 83

I thought it was a good programme and quite well balanced. He may not be one of the world's most notable historical figures, but he is undoubtedly one of the most notable in the history of the state.

It'll be interesting to see the rest of the episodes and if it stays balanced.

jank

actually it wasn't even that well balanced. More of a "ain't he a loveable rogue" kinda thing. PTOOEE!

Wait until the episode where the brown envolopes get revaled

johnnyc

jank wrote:

Wait until the episode where the brown envolopes get revaled

jank i think cj did more then that for this country. i recon if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have this celtic tiger.

RainyDay

johnnyc wrote:

jank i think cj did more then that for this country. i recon if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have this celtic tiger.

You are joking - right? This is the same CJ who failed abysmally to do anything positive with the economy with his 1987 Govt? Who went on TV to tell us to tighten our belts, and then completely failed to confront any of vested interests in the public service. The only positive thing CJ did was to approve & kick-off Dermot Desmond's idea for the IFSC in Dublin, but that is just one small part the Celtic Tiger.

So tell us specifically how CJ created the Celtic Tiger?

johnnyc

Ok he was the man who helped ireland to receive billions from the eu. He placed a massive emphasis on education. He gave money for the development of ifsc-ireland financial service center. He was a very progressive politican along the lines of sean lemass. When ireland was going through the rough times of the 80's he made sure people realise that we had to tighten up due to our crippling debt. he helped us oversome those days and what he left behind was a healthy economy for preceding taoiseachs for reynolds,bruton and bertie.

RainyDay

johnnyc wrote:

Ok he was the man who helped ireland to receive billions from the eu.

Wasn't this Albert & not Charlie? I can still remember Albert coming on TV claiming credit for the £8 billion in EU funding (which of course turned out to be more like £5 billion, but what's a billion or two between friends.

johnnyc wrote:

He placed a massive emphasis on education.

How? Please be specific about what he actually did.

johnnyc wrote:

When ireland was going through the rough times of the 80's he made sure people realise that we had to tighten up due to our crippling debt. he helped us oversome those days and what he left behind was a healthy economy for preceding taoiseachs for reynolds,bruton and bertie.

He did little or nothing to improve the national debt, despite introducing drastic cuts to the healthcare system (the pain of which is still being felt today).

johnnyc

i believe the country was going down hill before charles haughey. but haughey may alot of faults especially increasing public spending when he told the citizens that we were living beyond our means but in 1987-1992.

http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-haughey

Taoiseach 1987-1992
Haughey now headed a minority Fianna Fáil government. Fine Gael took the unprecedented move of supporting the government and voting for it when it came to introducing tough economic policies. The government introduced budget cuts in all departments, and ironically, the cuts were much more severe than when FitzGerald was in power. The actions that were taken by Haughey's government in this period certainly transformed the economy. One of the majot schemes put forward, and one which would have enormous economic benefits for the country, was the establishement of the International Financial Services Centre (IFSC) in Dublin.

RainyDay

It seems like you're giving Charlie loads of credit for fixing up the mess he created himself. Here's the other quotes from answers.com that you forgot to include;

When Haughey came to power the country was sinking into a deep economic crisis. Haughey effectively acted as his own Minister for Finance, enforcing his own views over the views of the actual minister. One of his first functions as Taoiseach was a speech to the nation on January 9, 1980 in which he outlined the bleak economic picture:

...the figures which are just now becoming available to us show one thing very clearly. As a community we are living away beyond our means...we have been living at a rate which is simply not justifiable by the amount of goods and services we are producing. To make up the difference we have been borrowing enormous amounts of money, borrowing at a rate which just cannot continue. A few simple figures will make this very clear...we will just have to reorganise government spending so that we can only undertake those things we can afford...

While Haughey had identified the problem with the economy he did the exact opposite of what should be done. He increased public spending, which soon became out of control, and led to increases in borrowing and taxation at an unacceptable level.

and regarding 1982

Haughey's secoond term was dominated by even more economic mismanagement, persued on the populist line yet again.

That gives a slightly different spin on things, doesn't it?

Sleipnir

In one of Ireland's blackest economic periods, the head of government just refused to see why he should pay taxes and while the rest of the country were paying 18% interest rates, this fella was also making them pay for his favourite bottle of wine (86' Lynch Bages at £200 a pop) in Le Coq Hardi.
He was a gangster.

His corruption has also caused immense damage to the political process in Ireland. Indeed, I would go as far to say that the man’s appalling behaviour in office can be seen as a considerable cause of the apathy in today’s electorate. Sadly, many Irish people have grown up with the impression that all politicians are self-serving crooks. The resulting cynicism has a corrosive effect on the essential bond between the government and the governed. For while there will always be bad apples, necessitating a healthy degree of scepticism, the current level of disgust for all things political will be as damaging as total credulity.

We’re in danger of turning our backs on meaningful debate, eschewing tough decisions and instead placing power in the hands of incoherent populists or extremists with hidden intentions. I blame part of the voters’ current ‘switch-off’ on the decadent and self-indulgent reign of King Charles.

Then there’s the damage done to Ireland’s standing in the world. Having helped gift us the image of a disastrously managed little island, mired in corruption, CJ exposed Ireland to ridicule and derision.

All in all, an incredibly flawed character that still casts a baleful shadow over today’s Ireland.

Victor

CJhaughey wrote:

Thats slanderous talk

I understand Justice McCracken found otherwise.

johnnyc wrote:

i recon if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have this celtic tiger.

Are you suggesting CJH fathered 500,000 children in the 1970s - the real source of the boom? While there are suggestions he was lady's man, that would be stretching things. And of course, if it weren't for Haughey, we might have had an earlier, more sustained boom.

CJH was a cad, a tax evader, a liar, a bully, a philanderer, a squanderer*, a hypocrit and a "kept man" that let others die for his own glory**.

* Suggestions for a better word sought.
** I refer to Fintan O'Toole's article on the trust fund for the Irish Haemophilia Society

Von

Victor wrote:

CJH was a cad, a tax evader, a liar, a bully, a philanderer, a squanderer*, a hypocrit and a "kept man" that let others die for his own glory**.

Random PD/FF Voter wrote:

Survival of the fittest, life's not fair deal with it, sure everyone was at it, you'd do the same, shut up you communist etc etc.

Various justifications I've heard over time for that kind of behaviour.

johnnyc

the taoiseach i blame for the recession in the 80's was Jack Lynch

Sponge Bob

Lynch listened to a voodoo economics soothsayer called O Donohue over in Trinity and borrowed to create full employment Lynch is guilty for starting the 80s' in 1977

Haughey is guilty of remaining silent until 1980 and then accelerating the decline , as are Fitzgerald and Spring later on . Both Haughey 1979-1982 and Spring/Fitzgerand 1982-1987 doubled the national debt they inherited when they took office. Spring was possibly the most wilful miscreant of all because the country was certainly bankrupt when he took office .

Dukes , McSharry , O Malley and Haughey were the ones who agreed not to play party politics but to sort the borrowing mess out in 1987 . For that we should thank all of them.

Therefore every senior politician 1977-1987 is guilty , Haughey not least among them.

However Fitzgerald and Lynch never profited personally or horsed back £200 bottles of wine when they felt like it. Whatever their mistakes they did not seek personal gain from their incompetence and from the scattering of a generation of Irish to the four winds.

Others did, Haughey most of all. I for one will never forgive them !

Cork

CJH for all his faults and failings had achievements - the IFSC, Temple bar, Government buildings, social partnership etc.

He should not have taken money from business men.

Everything is not black or white.

Dukes , McSharry , O Malley and Haughey

This county has much to thank these people for.

Alan Dukes in particuler should have got more credit - FG dumped him and then he lost his seat in the last election.

Victor

Cork wrote:

the IFSC,

Tax breaks for the lads

Temple bar,

More tax breaks for the lads

Government buildings,

Built c. 1910

social partnership etc.

Pre-dated Haughey's 1987 government.