Transsexualism really getting to me...

Stark

Very very tired now, and am heading to bed soon, so not able to post a detailed reply. I'll have a go tomorrow.

Basically there's a hell of a lot of evidence to show that you're wrong and that transsexualism is a valid state of being and not simply some psychological disorder than can be cured through therapy.

Doctors have done studies on young children to determine if masculine/feminine traits are learnt or preprogrammed. Basically they took young boys and attempted to raise them as girls, and did vica versa. In all cases, they found that the children naturally reverted to behaviours associated with their correct genders. They also found that male brains had one kind of structure and female brains another. When you look at transsexuals as young children, you notice that they exhibit behaviours consistent with what gender they believe themselves to me. When doctors examined their brains, they also found that M2Fs has female type brains and F2Ms had male type brains.

PhantomBeaker

swiss wrote:

I confess, transexualism bothers me.

<snip - no pun intended>

Perhaps I will never understand it, and perhaps it doesn't matter whether I do or not, but for what it is worth, I would really like to know.

First off, you're right. You probably never will. Seriously. Just as I won't get being a gay man. One of the best quotes I heard one time was from a bi person who said "I don't get straight people. There again I don't get gay people either."

So, as Stark said, there's a trickle of evidence to indicate this is more than just psychological. There are two brain-sex studies that, are pretty much like each other, but make for a good start:

"A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to Transsexuality" By J.-N Zhou, M.A. Hoffman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab
"Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus" By Frank P. M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren and Dick F. Swaab.

They're not definitive, but certainly a good start.

As for how you feel it... Um, this is just qualatitive. The first coherent thing I remember about transsexual feeling was when I was about 11 or 12 and reckoned that I shouldn't be a boy. Actually, this happened way before. the more I think about "Oh that was my earliest memory" another earlier one comes along. This wasn't down to who I was attracted to, but more who I was. But I remember, one time in first year in secondary school, we were participating in a study by some trinity psychology students. Of course the test was anonymous, but I remember there was a section of "Do you feel like you should be a member of the opposite sex?" and something about would I do it if I could. I remember reading them, and as a silent little cry (wow that's melodramatic, sorry about that), I put all my heart into ticking yes for both of them, as if somehow the people looking at them would somehow realise I made that mark and help me.

Around 13 I found out what a transsexual was, and realised "Yeah, that makes sense". I put it at the back of my mind though, because I assumed that you had to be a millionaire to do something like that. It wasn't for the common people. So why bother thinking about it?

Thing is, for most of my life, until I actually got myself informed at the age of 16 (thank god for the internet), I assumed most people felt that way. I assumed that guys didn't particularly like their penis, and I assumed that most guys couldn't really see themselves living as a guy in the future. That was the big thing that didn't stick. It was also my growing reluctance to view myself as a guy in the least - pronouns about myself or any such thing. Strange thing was, I did grow facial hair (as opposed to shave it)... Although that was partially so I could just try to fit in in school.

Now, despite all of that anecdotal evidence, it doesn't answer one very good question that you asked. How can I be sure that it's my sex and gender identity that's the issue? That's why I got myself to a shrink who dealt with this stuff. His job isn't to say that I am or amn't trans, but at least to rule out that something else is the cause (Extreme example, imagine someone with disassociative identity disorder (i.e. the classic split-personality syndrome) where one of the personalities has a gender opposite to the host's sex - it'd be a really bad idea if that personality changed the sex of the body).

Still doesn't rule out that there's something deeper. And I've seen cases where it probably is something deeper, as opposed to being trans, and man they messed up their lives (putting it mildly). I've seen cases of "Queerer than thou" gone very wrong, I've seen kids do it almost as an elaborate rebellion against their parents, and I've seen others very ready to take advantage of that. So, I'm bloody careful. I have to ask myself lots of questions. Some may say that these questions slow me down, but that's exactly the point.

The only thing I can say for definate is, now that I've started hormones for a coupla years, I know that they've put me in a much better headspace than I was before. To the point where I'm able to stick a college course. It just makes the world feel more right. It makes it easier to live in my body.

I don't know if anyone here has done martial arts, but one of the things they do is it jams your mind right into your body. With me, quite frequently, the mind is far far away from the body. I used to find being put into my body quite uncomfortable, I saw what was wrong with my body, and many bits felt out of place. These days, there's less of an out-of-place feeling.

Overall, I can't qualify it any more than "It just feels right", but so far it's working out for me.

I think I should point out, the current (barbaric) method of treating trans people is a pretty ok treatment (as opposed to a cure). It's a mismatch of mind and body, so butcher the body to a point where the mind/brain says it's ok. The only reason we do it that way is because any previous attempts to fix the mind have failed most spectacularly, and if those papers are accurate, you can see why. So, we go for the other option, alter the body. It's not ideal, because you can't reproduce, and not many mtfs pass well as female (ftms pass much better). Still, it helps the person in question, most of the time.

That said, people still want to try. Hell, even my own parents once tried to convince me to go for NLP sessions (neuro-linguistic programming - I'm not a fan. It smacks of being highly unethical) to 'cure' me. Problem is, I believe that NLP is very powerful, but when you try to mess around with something as low-level as one's gender identity, you're going to affect far more in someone's mind, and could potentially do a lot of damage. I'm not going to be that guinea pig for that cause. Plus, I think it would only mask the symptom and do nothing about the cause.

I hope this helps you understand a bit more (although given the hour I wrote this at, and the fact that I'm not reading over it again, I'm probably not very coherent in it), although in all likelihood, I doubt it'll do much.

Take care,
Phantom Beaker (who's proud of herself because she didn't rely on the cliche of "liking 'womens things' like cooking, cleaning, washing up, ironing, knitting and sewing - ok, I do like the first 4 for some odd reason (cooking is creative, and the other three are very meditative for me), but they're not feminine things/behaviours. Unfortunately half the trannies on TV or radio programmes don't seem to realise this and make a tit of themselves)

damien

swiss wrote:

I know it might sound hypocritical for someone who is gay, who faces this same attitude from certain sections of society to come out and say this.

Don't worry, you won't get arrested by the pink police because you're not as open to transsexuaism as you want others to be about your sexuality. This subject is quite complex and difficult for many to understand. It is only when people like PhantomBeaker take time to explain it that we can understand it more and perhaps understand it.

When say something like:

But I am male, I know I am male and I have always felt comfortable being a male, despite also happening to be a homosexual male.

You are of course going to be biased, like many people. It's something that challenges part of your identity that many assume is immovable. The human organism is so complex that I'd definitely believe transsexualism is not some kind of mental condition. The same way I believe homosexuality is not a mental condition.

Annasopra

Thank you Phantom Breaker for that. Sometimes issues like these can be very difficult for people to get their head around, I know myself I still don't fully understand half of it but I'm definitely not as ignorant (uninformed/uneducated) as I used to be.

I found a good article on gender-queer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_queer

Stark

Brilliant post, PhantomBeaker, thanks for that.

PhantomBeaker

Rozie wrote:

I'd rather go the Russell Reid route. What's the best way of doing that?

General plan is:

1. Spend money on flights
2. Spend about £180ukp for an hour's appointment with the guy
3. Give off usual tranny spiel that he hears from every single person, whether it's true or not. without getting into any serious psychiatry
4. Watch his eyebrows
5. Repeat from 1 until you get a prescription
6. Get pills, creams, unctions, tinctures, suppositories, pessaries which you'll have to take exactly the same was as suppositories, and gels
7. Use said concoctions
8. Repeat from 1.
9. Get referral to surgeon
10. Get referral from other shrink at roughly the same price but for 20 minutes. conversation is apparently something like "You transsexual?" "Yup." "You want the op?" "Yup." "You sure?" "Yup." "Ok, here's your second referral, get thee to a surgeon".
11. See surgeon.
12. He draws on you.
13. Optional - get genital electrolysis, so that you don't have hairs growing inside your vagina.
14. Pay a large amount of money for op.
15. Get Op
16. Spend time recovering, Physically. Be aware that this requires having enough money to take 3 months leave to fully recover physically - i.e. no income from work (this was just mentioned to me by a friend of mine recently)
17. Get freebie session from RR - he apparently gives you a free session after SRS, and apparently that's generally the last people see of him.
18. Realise that you've been through a life changing process with only token psychological support.
19. Realise that there might have actually been something to the fact that his competence was questioned by the General Medical Counsel.
20. See a real shrink
21. Contemplate suing RR for malpractice.

I think that's the general gist of it.

I might have a slightly dim view of the man. What with the number of DVTs (Deep Vein Thrombosis) had under his care, especially with his token prescription being Ovran and Androcur (well while Ovran was still being made - this cocktail was 100 times more probable to cause a DVT from what I remember), and a number of other serious complaints that I've heard of (some first-hand).

Take care,
The Phantom Beaker

Rozie

PhantomBeaker wrote:

General plan is:

1. Spend money on flights
2. Spend about £180ukp for an hour's appointment with the guy
3. Give off usual tranny spiel that he hears from every single person, whether it's true or not. without getting into any serious psychiatry
4. Watch his eyebrows
5. Repeat from 1 until you get a prescription
6. Get pills, creams, unctions, tinctures, suppositories, pessaries which you'll have to take exactly the same was as suppositories, and gels
7. Use said concoctions
8. Repeat from 1.
9. Get referral to surgeon
10. Get referral from other shrink at roughly the same price but for 20 minutes. conversation is apparently something like "You transsexual?" "Yup." "You want the op?" "Yup." "You sure?" "Yup." "Ok, here's your second referral, get thee to a surgeon".
11. See surgeon.
12. He draws on you.
13. Optional - get genital electrolysis, so that you don't have hairs growing inside your vagina.
14. Pay a large amount of money for op.
15. Get Op
16. Spend time recovering, Physically. Be aware that this requires having enough money to take 3 months leave to fully recover physically - i.e. no income from work (this was just mentioned to me by a friend of mine recently)
17. Get freebie session from RR - he apparently gives you a free session after SRS, and apparently that's generally the last people see of him.
18. Realise that you've been through a life changing process with only token psychological support.
19. Realise that there might have actually been something to the fact that his competence was questioned by the General Medical Counsel.
20. See a real shrink
21. Contemplate suing RR for malpractice.

I think that's the general gist of it.

I might have a slightly dim view of the man. What with the number of DVTs (Deep Vein Thrombosis) had under his care, especially with his token prescription being Ovran and Androcur (well while Ovran was still being made - this cocktail was 100 times more probable to cause a DVT from what I remember), and a number of other serious complaints that I've heard of (some first-hand).

Take care,
The Phantom Beaker

I always heard he was very good, just a little on the loose side... what route do you recommend I take? I need to get HRT as soon as possible, preferably start it before october.

isolde

PhantomBeaker wrote:

I hope this helps you understand a bit more (although given the hour I wrote this at, and the fact that I'm not reading over it again, I'm probably not very coherent in it), although in all likelihood, I doubt it'll do much.

Just happened to read this, great post PhantomBeaker, really gives an insight into your situation.

Can I ask a really ignorant question... really sorry if this comes across as extremely stupid... but, who exactly are transexual people attracted to? What I mean is, if you are a man and want to be female, who exactly are you attracted to.. are you attracted to men, as a heterosexual woman, or are some people attracted to women, as a woman who was previously a man? Like lesbian transexuals then? Sorry, this is really unclear, I hope people understand what I'm trying to ask, and completely apologise for my complete ignorance of the situation...

On a semi-separate, off-topic note... having lived abroad in a small German city for quite some time, where not being heterosexual was completely normal and celebrated, it was great to see the Pride march in Dublin today. And the colours were fab.

FranknFurter

Gotta say,...

Damn good job PB, real good explainations of a very complex issue that is all too often misunderstood / not appreciated by the Gay as well as the str8 communities in general.

I often find it funny how people forget that not so long ago, being homosexual was also considered a "mental illness" by the med/psych professions (still is by some), an not just the general public.

b

Annasopra

Isolde

Some people after transition are then straight and then some are gay/lesbian, so the answer is both

I actually was really ignorant on that issue as well until about 2 years ago, when I realised - people change their gender and then become gay/lesbian, this totally in some ways threw me byt helped me to learn more

PhantomBeaker

isolde wrote:

Can I ask a really ignorant question... really sorry if this comes across as extremely stupid... but, who exactly are transexual people attracted to?

Simplest answer I can come up with is: whoever you're attracted to.

(More complex answer) I mean, there are lesbian male-to-female transsexuals, there are straight, there are bi. There are gay female-to-males, likewise straight and bi. Thing is, they might not identify quite the way you'd expect.

I mean, how many TSs would call themselves straight after all they've been through? Sexually, they might be straight, but most likely they wouldn't call themselves straight.

Trust me, you look at gender differently. So you look at the gender/sex of your partner from a slightly different way. Then standard labels of sexuality go a bit weird.

So when people ask my sexuality - I could say "I like nice androgynous people, and (insert list of types of people I like)"... or I could just keep it simple and say "bi"

But the short answer of "whatever you're attracted to" works well, I find.

Take care,
Phantom Beaker

isolde

johnnymcg, phantombeaker

thanks for that, hadnt a notion...

PhantomBeaker

Rozie wrote:

I always heard he was very good, just a little on the loose side... what route do you recommend I take? I need to get HRT as soon as possible, preferably start it before october.

Ok. Basically for 7 years I've seen people go into and out of Russell Reid's office. Some of them managed to mess up their lives rather seriously, and I've seen some get on just fine. I've seen someone who was very seriously considering suing the guy because he gave bad endocrinological advice, nearly losing her her job (reason: he told her employer that hormones do not have a physical effect, nor does it have the potential to effect your sleeping patterns etc ), and possibly her life.

This was the sort of thing that was called into question by the General Medical Council. You can read a bit about it at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3412485.stm and http://www.ftmaustralia.org/media/04/0119.html

Now, the other side is that he's infamous within trans circles for just going through the motions. Most people tend to refer to him as "A quack, but a useful quack" because you used to get a prescription from him on the first appointment as a 'dianostic'. However, generally speaking he was not known for his psychological support.

In England, most people got that from their other trans friends. I think you may have noticed that, in Ireland, trans people are a bit scarce. So, if there aren't that many trans people to get support from, we damned well need it from a psychologist. Remember, we're going through a LIFE CHANGING EXPERIENCE - that may sound heavy, and quite frankly it is. We need someone who can bounce back some repercussions that we may not have thought of. Hell sometimes we just need a shoulder to cry on, with things like "I was walking down the street and this group of kids shout, 'Hey look, he has tits!'".

A psychologist is one of those people that you just need. He's not there as a some sort of gatekeeper - it's to make sure that you don't have any problems when you transition, or that you can talk to him about it.

With RR, you apparently goes through the motions. He doesn't particularly know who you are, or what you're going through. Hell, you could go to him saying you want to be a pink female rubber duck, and in the old days you'd still walk out with a prescription for Ovran and oestrogel.

If you have a lot of crap in your life, he's not the one to go to.

Overall, I believe James Kelly a really great psychologist, and a good man in general. Another plus, he's local - that doesn't just mean that you pay less for getting to him, but it also means he'll know what you mean when you say "I'm living in Limerick". RR will just wiggle his eyebrows and say "that's nice", James Kelly will pay more attention, and ask how safe the area might be for you... that sorta thing.

He's not a slouch referring to the endocrinologist either (you could possibly get there by October). Dr O'Shea knows his stuff, and my opinion of him has improved last time I saw him. He's a good guy. He's a little behind on the times... but he's getting there. He wants to be safe.

RR will just prescribe anything you want, on the basis that you've done your research. O'Shea will prescribe what he's researched and knows works. That infuriates me sometimes, but I do appreciate that he's both looking out for himself, and for the patient. Given how powerful hormones are, I can understand why.

Basically, there's a very good reason why psychological support is needed: changing sex is not a normal thing to do, and it's dangerous (socially, plus increased risks of DVTs, embolisms, brittle bones), renders you infertile and is rather permanent, so you need to have someone making sure that this is really what you want. I find the ones who adjust well to all of this are the ones who'll have no problem with seeing a psychologist... it's the ones that want to skip it that generally need it most. But that's just my own personal experience.

Anywho, I'd just recommend against RR, but ultimately it's your decision.

Take care,
Phantom Beaker

Annasopra

Just realised something

I said that trans people can be gay OR straight after the op - sorry they can of course be bi

Rozie

How long should it take to get hormones going by the Irish system?

PhantomBeaker

A few months. Considering that RR has at least 3 months between appointments, the time scale isn't that drastically different, just you get more sessions in those few months, and in the case of James Kelly, he DEFINATELY gets to know you.

Rozie

How do I get referred though?

See, I have to go back to college. How will I make the change? Should I start going out as a girl now, or wait until halloween break? Hair removal is a big problem, because of having to let it grow for laser... but will that be alright after the first session(less dark/less dense)?

I really want to go back as a girl...

Rozie

Wait! Now I remember the main reason for wanting to go to RR.

I hear that here you can only get Premarin. I do NOT want to take that stuff. I'd rather go without hormones if I have to...

Victor

Whats with the "unholy" rush?

Hmm_Messiah

I've seen some great responses to the OP, and especially Phantom Beaker's contribution.

Like others its not something I know much about, so can contribute little other than what I said earlier. However, leaving the "subject" aside it appears to me that you are pretty much overwhelmed with questions, uncertainties, and a lack of direction.

I'd repeat my advise that the place to get these answers is a therapist. Not that replies here are useless, but each response seems to spark any number of other questions and concerns with you.
I think you would benefit from some one who has met you and can help you prioritise your needs while lessening the frustration.

If you've decided you want to be a girl on return to college then you need to be getting that help right now. imho you might be putting too much pressure on yourself (though understandable) and perhap should set a date like after the xmas break. Having a realistic date set will benefit you in your endeavours.

again the best of luck (and I hope you've explored the links provided here as well as the posts)

Micro1

Mate, it doesnt look like your never gonna make a bigger decision in your life than this, so take it slowly and do it correctly. Dont rush into anything, go see a therapist/shrink and talk about the issues you face. You seem to know who you want to be, but are having problems realising that person. Dont worry about what the general public think, the responses to this post are surely an indication that there are people out there that will not judge you on anything but the person you are. I have no idea what your going through, but remember the person most important in this is yourself, so do what feel's right, but seek guidance from somebody that can help.

PhantomBeaker

Rozie wrote:

I hear that here you can only get Premarin. I do NOT want to take that stuff. I'd rather go without hormones if I have to...

Yeah, I'm on the horse-piss myself (For those who don't know, Premarin is made from Pregnant Mare's urine... while this in itself is not a bad thing, the animals are treated unethically according to animal rights groups). O'Shea actually does patches as well now. He actually prefers to prescribe them these days - less stress on the liver.

The only reason I'm still taking premarin is that I can afford the 20 euro a month, and not much more.

So, if that's what's holding you back... don't worry. You can get patches, and the ethinyl oestrodiol in the patches (I know I spelt it wrong, but I'm fairly sure that's the active chemical in those patches) is completely artificial - no animals were harmed in the making of this stuff.

As for referral to him, that would be through James Kelly.

To get in touch with him (although he may be on holiday at the moment) just ring him - you don't need a referral to James Kelly last time I checked. GCN used to carry his ad (and why the hell they included an ad for the Albany clinic in England as opposed to a competent psychologist that's actually in the country, and just 5 minutes from their offices, when they did that trans article recently is BEYOND ME!) but seeing as he works in an office over the House Of Astrology in Parliament Street in Dublin, you could ring there and get his number (I mean, they have a sign in the window) - you can get their contact number on: http://www.houseofastrology.net/id7.htm

Take care,
P.B.

Rozie

Could I not get another oral alternative, like Estrofem? I'm not sure I want patches. That means I can *never* be totally naked.

PhantomBeaker

I don't think so. Or at least he's never offered one.

As far as patches go, yeah that is a drawback, but you could still place them in places where people might not notice them so much.

As for getting an alternative like Estrofem, I'd suggest that you do your research - and when I say do your research, I mean become a bloody amateur endocrinologist. Find all the alternatives, general prices for them, advantages and disadvantages. Check things like their average half-life (i.e. if you take a dose, it enters your blood-stream, the half-life is how long it would take to reduce that dosage to half... just like radioactive materials... except without the radioactivity ), because the longer that is, the more of an effect that one dose will have on the liver, because the longer it's in the system, the more time the liver will spend breaking down just that one dose.

Find every single drawback to each one. Find every single selling point to each one.

Then the next problem you'll have is convincing him that you know what you're talking about... and I see his point. First time I was in his office: I was a 19 year old sitting in front of him, and as far as he was concerned he was the expert and I knew nothing. He was vaguely right. He is the expert, and he doesn't want to just randomly prescribe a new drug to people just because they ask for it... he's taken a vow to do no harm, and he takes it seriously.

But if you can argue in a rational manner that you think that a certain avenue is worth investigating, he might look into it and give you a yay or a nay at the next appointment.

Take care,
P.B.