Latest NRA Folly (are these ppl congenitally stupid?)

mike65

Possibly the most stubbonly foolish quango in the land is at it again. Refusing to allow to building of service areas on intercity routes on the grounds that exisiting towns and villages provide all the servies the weary trucker/commuter could possibly want.


from irish times

NRA to oppose motorway service stations



The National Roads Authority (NRA) has confirmed that it will not follow standard European practice and allow for service stations on the State's expanding motorway network.

Following a recent review of its policy, the NRA, which has responsibility for the planning and construction of motorways and dual carriageways, has confirmed it will object to applications to build service stations along motorways.

"The authority's policy will continue to be to raise objections to any proposals that are made for the provision of online service areas," it said in its recently published 2004 annual report.

Jimmy Quinn of the National Road Haulage Association said the authority was ignoring international best practice.

"Ireland is the only country in Europe with this policy. Drivers can now go from the Border to Portlaoise without passing any service stations. This means we are being forced into little towns that don't want us there," Mr Quinn said.

According to Conor Faughnan of the AA, the rest of Europe follows a format of building service areas to ensure that large volumes of traffic are catered for without leaving the motorway network. "It would have been logical to have followed that pattern," he said.

The National Safety Council has also expressed surprise at the decision. "The NRA should be looking at having service stations during the motorway planning stage so that the roads are capable of having stations that are safe," said the council's Alan Richardson.

The NRA says that because services already exist in villages and towns that are being bypassed there is no need to build further stations at the roadside. It says it will develop a "signage policy" for motorists so they will be able to find the service areas and other facilities in the towns and villages.

Marvellous, nice new roads are built to remove inappropriate traffic from small towns then the NRA sends the trucks straight back in!

Safety barriers, bypass tolling, cost overruns, poor route selection, is there anything the NRA does right?

Mike.

D'Peoples Voice

mike65 wrote:

Possibly the most stubbonly foolish quango in the land is at it again. Refusing to allow to building of service areas on intercity routes on the grounds that exisiting towns and villages provide all the servies the weary trucker/commuter could possibly want.
Marvellous, nice new roads are built to remove inappropriate traffic from small towns then the NRA sends the trucks straight back in!

Safety barriers, bypass tolling, cost overruns, poor route selection, is there anything the NRA does right?

Mike.

there are good arguments on both sides,
I know what you're saying it's better having long vehicles struggling to pick up speed pulling out of services stations straight into the path of traffic travelling at 120km/h
than having a long vehicle truck take a slip lane off the motorway,
and calling into a service station on the "outskirts of the town" like on the N7 Nenagh bypass, where there is a fast food joint also, where someone can sit down for rest.
I guess people will have different views on this one.

Alun

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

there are good arguments on both sides,
I know what you're saying it's better having long vehicles struggling to pick up speed pulling out of services stations straight into the path of traffic travelling at 120km/h
than having a long vehicle truck take a slip lane off the motorway,
and calling into a service station on the "outskirts of the town" like on the N7 Nenagh bypass, where there is a fast food joint also, where someone can sit down for rest.
I guess people will have different views on this one.

What planet do you live on? Have you actually ever seen a service station on a motorway? Like in the UK, for example? They have slip roads, just like normal junctions, and all the fast food joints you can want.

murphaph

The NRA are 100% correct. Everyone else in Europe is wrong. :rolleyes:
Typical example of a pi$$ poor Irish quango trying to re-invent a perfectly functioning wheel. The only surprise is that they've failed to spot the nice little earner that motorway services franchise licences are. They cost a small fortune in the UK.

Thomond Pk

Is it because the NRA are scared that people will exit the tolled motorways and see that many of the existing routes are adequate? The NRA is guilty of disgraceful levels of overspend and that is from their own figures for the planned schemes. I challenge any engineer to justify the level of cutting for the Brides Glen over-bridge on the soon to be opened South Eastern Motorway. The most tragic thing is that when this stretch is found to be incapable of carrying its traffic load the widening will have to be equally over-engineered again.

murphaph

Thomond Pk wrote:

Is it because the NRA are scared that people will exit the tolled motorways and see that many of the existing routes are adequate?

But exiting the motorway is exactly what they advocate

Bill McH

The reasons the NRA are giving are basically related to safety, if I heard correctly on Morning Ireland today.

Unfortunately this is not the first time that the NRA thought they knew better than everybody else on a safety issue. They also thought that a small bit of shrubbery was sufficient to stop people driving across into the opposite carriageway, even though proper barriers are used in any of the countries I've been in.

We've seen the disastrous consequences of that one.

Where are they getting their safety advice?

BrianD

As far as I am concerned these motorway service areas that would provide rest, food, fuel and toilet facilities are more important that retro-fitting safety barriers and will ultimately save more lives. The need for service stations is not huge right now but as the m-way network expands they will become essential. Anybody on a long distance commute does not want to waste time disappearing off the m-way on the off chance that there may be services available in some by passed town. They want to pull into a service area coming up in 10K's fill up, stretch the legs, take a leak and grab a bite to eat before resuming their journey as a refreshed driver. The NRA are a complete and utter failure - the produce white elephants like the M3, cost the taxpayer a fortune in overspending, can't even get numbers put on motorway junctions and now this.

Thomond Pk

murphaph wrote:

But exiting the motorway is exactly what they advocate

At exactly the junctions that suit them, if any of you have noticed there are no signs saying next services, so people will exit to a conveniently located new service station right on the junction. It will follow the exact model of the M40 between South Brum and London, this is a recipy for a new type of sprawl only this one will be a preliminary development for a service station followed by clumps of industrial development. Never forget that most rural counties don't zone most of their land so re-zonings are not required.

With proper marked services on the map a wiley driver could plan the route to include one set of services and work their route from there.

murphaph

Sorry Thomond Pk,
I'm not sure of your position on this. Are you for or against online motorway services a la Great Britain and Europe?

I've a feeling we're both agreeing with each other.

Thomond Pk

I'm against a large number of them but in favour of three one at Port Laoise, Moate & one North of Dundalk. Ireland is a small country and the main reason you would only need a limited number of motorway services is that you would run out of road before you run out of Fuel. But you do have to think about foreign drivers who seeing no services on the map go straight for the first garage off the ferry and don't leave the motorway until they reach their destination or where it ends.

A well thought out locational policy could have plugged a real gap for those who forgot fuel or don't know the road and want food. The current blanket ban is just like the NRA policy on crash barriers and when this ban ends there will probably be motorway services at every second junction just to jerk the knee in the opposite extreme.

The National Ruler Authority they are not taking the measured metaphor

SeanW

Highway-side rest stops with all those things are commonplace in the US as well.

Bee

Sounds like vested interests

"The NRA says that because services already exist in villages and towns that are being bypassed there is no need to build further stations at the roadside"

Just like the F/F'ers torpedoed the Reich Fuhrer of the PD's Minnie McDowell on Cafe bar licenses ( The FF Publican Party didn't want their profits reduced) perhaps we have a similar scenario with the NRA pointing traffic into the towns for the local hostelry's!

Bee

P.S. How do we get the NRA sacked ?

SeanW

Sounds like another "Irish Solution ... "

DubTony

Heard this stuff several times on the radio yesterday, and it's completely nonsensical. While I disagree completely with the NRA the situation is not as bad as some are making it out to be. The main issue seemed to be that truckers can now drive from Dundalk to PortLaoise without finding somewhere to rest.
But how often does that happen? Ireland is a small country and running out of fuel is generally not an issue on a long journey. Trucks from the North fill up as soon as they cross the border and then join the motorway. They then have (is it) 8 hours before they are legally obliged to stop and rest. 8 hours will see them in Cork - easily, and most of them only stop when they have to. The N7 past Rathcoole has 3 or 4 service stations with adequate parking for trucks and are well used.
We certainly don't need monstrous service areas like those in the UK. Tourists will probably find it a bit strange and probably should be informed but when did anyone in this country ever give a damn about tourists? Take the Gaeltacht signs debacle as an example.

The southeasternern US states have pull off areas that offer adequate parking, toilets and vending machines without masses of fast food restaurants and newsagents. This sounds like a good idea, but from what I can gather the NRA won't go for that either. It seems they do want us to pull into the recently bypassed towns.

spacetweek

The NRA's policy is BS. :mad: I can't imagine it lasting too long. The whole point of bypassing a town with a motorway is to keep traffic out of it. Redirecting traffic back in would defeat the purpose.

As for there being "safety issues", I feel like the NRA have something different in mind to the rest of us. I think they have a mental picture of the petrol stations being right up next to the edge, with motorists making 90-degree left turns to get in. It's not like that. Rest areas are entirely segregated areas with their own exit and entrance lanes, just like at a regular junction. Vehicles would have adequate room to accelerate and decelerate. There is no safety issue.

DubTony wrote:

The N7 past Rathcoole has 3 or 4 service stations with adequate parking for trucks and are well used.

Hopefully these will all be closed or relocated after the current upgrade. Petrol stations are supposed to be in a rest area or on a link road and should NOT be directly accessible from the main road.

DubTony wrote:

We certainly don't need monstrous service areas like those in the UK.

They don't have to be monstrous and we DO need them. Saying that you won't run out of fuel in a country this size is a red herring. In my experience much of the time you're stopping to stretch your legs and grab some food, not necessarily to refuel.

DubTony wrote:

Trucks from the North fill up as soon as they cross the border and then join the motorway.

Yes, but this is only because the N1/A1 is currently a 2-lane road with petrol stations run by grannies on either side. When the upgrade opens they will have to pull into Dundalk or something. This pattern will be repeated across the country as more and more N-roads are replaced with dual carraigeways. The need for rest areas will increase and increase.

D'Peoples Voice

Alun wrote:

What planet do you live on? Have you actually ever seen a service station on a motorway? Like in the UK, for example? They have slip roads, just like normal junctions, and all the fast food joints you can want.

Well, please god, they will introduce them,
and when thousands of people are killed over the years,
people will then understand the NRA's objection.

It makes sense, the lower the number of times vehicles have to slow down around "slip lanes/exits" the smaller the risk of people hitting into the back of others.

I'm someone who has driven on the M50 on a regular basis over the years,
and FROM MY EXPERIENCE the most of the accidents I've seen have been at slip lanes.
Either it's from people trying to merge from sliplanes, or vehicles breaking suddenly because someone in front of them wants to swerve across a lane of traffic to get to an exit.
If you recently travelled southbound on the M50 pass the N4 slip lane, you would see that people were ignoring the slip lane and just cutting across the traffic island, the council has had to put bollards across the traffic island it was that bad.
I'd love to have statistics that could show where crashes on the M50 tend to happen, and I wonder if there is a greater percentage of them at exits.
And you want to increase the number of slip lanes.
As I said, they can repeat what they did on the Nenagh bypass! No-one has to go into a town for services, the service station/fast food is just off the N7, at a junction of several roads, therefore it's target market is even greater. And I think it's even signposted well in advance.

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Well, please god, they will introduce them,
and when thousands of people are killed over the years,
people will then understand the NRA's objection.

It makes sense, the lower the number of times vehicles have to slow down around "slip lanes/exits" the smaller the risk of people hitting into the back of others.

I'm someone who has driven on the M50 on a regular basis over the years,
and FROM MY EXPERIENCE the most of the accidents I've seen have been at slip lanes.
Either it's from people trying to merge from sliplanes, or vehicles breaking suddenly because someone in front of them wants to swerve across a lane of traffic to get to an exit.
If you recently travelled southbound on the M50 pass the N4 slip lane, you would see that people were ignoring the slip lane and just cutting across the traffic island, the council has had to put bollards across the traffic island it was that bad.
I'd love to have statistics that could show where crashes on the M50 tend to happen, and I wonder if there is a greater percentage of them at exits.
And you want to increase the number of slip lanes.
As I said, they can repeat what they did on the Nenagh bypass! No-one has to go into a town for services, the service station/fast food is just off the N7, at a junction of several roads, therefore it's target market is even greater. And I think it's even signposted well in advance.

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. We're talking about probably a couple of dozen services on he whole m-way network (when complete, which is some time off). Not installing them because they could increase accidents is crazy talk. That's an issue of driver training etc. Based on your 'logic' why not just build Dublin-Cork direct with no junctions?

Alun

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Incoherent rant

Why should we have to forego the convenience of service stations merely because of the total incompetence of a few motorists who can't grasp something as simple as merging from a slip road? And, pray, what is the difference between turning off on a slip road to go to a nearby town to fill up, and turning of onto a slip road to a service station? I mean, going by your logic (?) we should ban motorways altogether because of the danger of slip roads ...

Calina

Well, please god, they will introduce them,
and when thousands of people are killed over the years,
people will then understand the NRA's objection.

This is just a little bit over-melodramatic.

I do, however, have no doubt that a greater number of accidents do happen at exits, but since I've seen people reversing along traffic islands because they've not been paying attention and missed their exits, or, I've seen people stop in the middle of the slow lane at Blanch because they are too important and in a hurry to join the exit queue and as a result, drive up outside the queue and then stop in a bid to bully someone into letting them in in front...I'd be willing to say that a greater cause of accidents around slipways is Crass Stupidity On A Monumental Scale. In any case, the M50 is not a good example of a road that needs service stops given that it's primarily a commuter route. But the M7 between Naas and Portlaoise definitely does.

As I said, they can repeat what they did on the Nenagh bypass! No-one has to go into a town for services, the service station/fast food is just off the N7, at a junction of several roads, therefore it's target market is even greater. And I think it's even signposted well in advance.

Are you sure you're not talking about the Shell and McDonalds in Roscrea? Because I can't think of one outside Nenagh at all, and if it is the one in Roscrea, for a motorway, that's an insane idea.

CJhaughey

DubTony wrote:

We certainly don't need monstrous service areas like those in the UK.

Yeah thats a brilliant Idea lets make really cute small ones that those dirty smelly trucks can't fit into.
while we are at it lets put up hanging baskets..Ahhh come on! a modern Artic is at least 60 feet long.
To suggest that we shouldn't allow a modern truck to park and use the services is nonsensical, these guys are professional drivers and as such will probably be the main users of services.
I also believe that fuelling should be available on a 24hr basis.

DubTony

CJhaughey wrote:

Yeah thats a brilliant Idea lets make really cute small ones that those dirty smelly trucks can't fit into.
while we are at it lets put up hanging baskets..Ahhh come on! a modern Artic is at least 60 feet long.
To suggest that we shouldn't allow a modern truck to park and use the services is nonsensical, these guys are professional drivers and as such will probably be the main users of services.
I also believe that fuelling should be available on a 24hr basis.

Selective, aren't you. Where do you see small in my post. I did say that Southeastern states in America have areas to pull in that offer adequate parking and minimal facilities. I didn't say they were fúcking lay-bys.

I don't think anyone here suggested we should build areas where trucks shouldn't be allowed to go. Seems you're making it up.

DubTony

spacetweek wrote:

Hopefully these (N7 Service stations)will all be closed or relocated after the current upgrade. Petrol stations are supposed to be in a rest area or on a link road and should NOT be directly accessible from the main road.

Unlikely to be closed. The N7 won't be a motorway at that point so there's no requirement to close them. They may upgrade the access.

They don't have to be monstrous and we DO need them.

So we agree then.

Saying that you won't run out of fuel in a country this size is a red herring. In my experience much of the time you're stopping to stretch your legs and grab some food, not necessarily to refuel.

Truckers only stop when they have to. This was my point. And there aren't many of them driving directly from the border to Cork anyway. I live in Dublin, and if you take a motorway out of Dublin, you'll have hit the end of the thing within 2 hours. (This is the recommended time to take a break)

Yes, but this is only because the N1/A1 is currently a 2-lane road with petrol stations run by grannies on either side. When the upgrade opens they will have to pull into Dundalk or something. This pattern will be repeated across the country as more and more N-roads are replaced with dual carraigeways. The need for rest areas will increase and increase.

Granted. But my point wasn't that we shouldn't have rest areas, it's that the situation isn't as dire as was being claimed. As I said, I don't agree with the NRA on this issue.

CJhaughey

You are correct when you say you didn't say make them small, however you did say we don't need monstrous ones like the UK. What makes Irish road haulage any smaller than UK trucks? You are better to build so that a few trucks can fit in. Believe me once you see 6 trucks with 40ft containers parked any "monstrous" space is going to look small.

DubTony

CJhaughey wrote:

You are correct when you say you didn't say make them small, however you did say we don't need monstrous ones like the UK. What makes Irish road haulage any smaller than UK trucks? You are better to build so that a few trucks can fit in. Believe me once you see 6 trucks with 40ft containers parked any "monstrous" space is going to look small.

I said we don't need monstrous ones with a bunch of fast food joints and a dozen shops in them. The rest areas in the USA can accomodate trucks without having a small town built so somebody can buy a can of coke and a packet of crisps. No reason why we can't do the same.

You obviously haven't seen many of the grossly gigantic service areas built around the UK's motorway network. You could lose your bloody car in them(Or your truck).

---

edit

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I'm not suggesting a 50 foot stretch beside the road with a Portaloo on it. All I'm saying is the situation isn't as bad as the trucker guy on the radio said it was.

gobdaw

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

And I think it's even signposted well in advance.

Wow!! Thats radical. Its certainly practically unique!

While trying to be PC, how would these be prevented from becoming the summer halting site for our Travelling Brethern from April to October each year (and not used at all by our Settled Brethern!)

Andrew Duffy

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0616/3706021173HM3MOTORWAY.html

NRA clarifies view on service stations
Tim O'Brien

The National Roads Authority (NRA) will today move to reassure Minister for Transport Martin Cullen that it will not oppose the development of motorway services such as restaurants and petrol stations.

Mr Cullen said yesterday that he would be asking the NRA to look at its policies as the organisation's annual report appeared to indicate it was opposed to service areas.

Mr Cullen said he believed "a policy of making lorries and cars leave the motorway to go back into towns for services doesn't make sense". The Minister added the point in bypassing towns had been to reduce levels of traffic and this would be negated by an NRA policy which forced vehicles back into towns for services.

However corporate director of the NRA Michael Egan said there appeared to be some confusion about the policy as the NRA was already co-operating with the private sector to provide service areas. Mr Egan said six such areas were already proposed for the 70-kilometre M1 motorway and more were proposed for other routes.

According to the NRA, the annual report made reference to a change in policy from not providing motorway services - a move which would see traffic diverted into the towns as the Minister feared - to proposing services in partnership with the private sector.

"We are proposing motorway services but we don't want them along the edge of the main motorway for safety reasons. So we are facilitating private-sector development around the interchanges and along slip roads," said Mr Egan.

In continental Europe motorway service areas had given rise to safety concerns and for this reason service areas such as Dublin's Liffey Valley were accessed via a slip road that had been paid for by the private sector.

It was not envisaged, however, that all service areas will be that far from the main route and Mr Egan said the size of the Liffey Valley Centre and associated traffic volumes had dictated the slip road. "In terms of our policy we have moved a long way from sending lorries back into towns, and we've moved that way for some time, " Mr Egan said.

© The Irish Times

Alun

In continental Europe motorway service areas had given rise to safety concerns and for this reason service areas such as Dublin's Liffey Valley were accessed via a slip road that had been paid for by the private sector.

What has a shopping centre like Liffey Valley got to do with motorway services FFS? And what exactly are these "safety concerns" in continental Europe?

Andrew Duffy

The NRA will not be constructing laybys on its motorways and dual carriageways. The French call them "Aires" and they are in a few other countries; they amount to a pair of left-turns off and onto the carriageway several hundred metres apart. In Ireland they would be used by truckers who would rejoin the carriageway at five km/h, blocking both lanes while doing so. That is, they would be used by truckers if not already occupied by travellers' caravans.
Motorway services accessed from grade seperated interchanges will be developed, and it appears that there will be one for everybody in the audience, as it the policy with interchanges at the moment.

Calina

uhem...just a little bit lost here...

1) Liffey Valley Shopping Centre is not a motorway service area.
2) Liffey Valley Shopping Centre is not, as far as I recall, even signposted from the M50.

Is there some special dictionary you need to learn by heart before you start working for the NRA?

As for the French Aires, the ones I have experience of come with a decent slip road.

MrPudding

Calina wrote:

As for the French Aires, the ones I have experience of come with a decent slip road.

Same here. I though they were really good.

MrP

spacetweek

Andrew Duffy wrote:

Mr Egan said six such areas were already proposed for the 70-kilometre M1 motorway and more were proposed for other routes.

Six? That sounds like overkill.

Andrew Duffy wrote:

"We are proposing motorway services but we don't want them along the edge of the main motorway for safety reasons. So we are facilitating private-sector development around the interchanges and along slip roads," said Mr Egan.

This is exactly what I'm against. Building around the interchanges will encourage urban sprawl and lead to congestion with local traffic interfacing with traffic using the service area.

Andrew Duffy wrote:

In continental Europe motorway service areas had given rise to safety concerns and for this reason service areas such as Dublin's Liffey Valley were accessed via a slip road that had been paid for by the private sector.

I dunno what slip road they're talking about here. Liffey Valley isn't a service area!

murphaph

Andrew Duffy wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/0616/3706021173HM3MOTORWAY.html

NRA clarifies view on service stations
Tim O'Brien

The National Roads Authority (NRA) will today move to reassure Minister for Transport Martin Cullen that it will not oppose the development of motorway services such as restaurants and petrol stations.

Mr Cullen said yesterday that he would be asking the NRA to look at its policies as the organisation's annual report appeared to indicate it was opposed to service areas.

Mr Cullen said he believed "a policy of making lorries and cars leave the motorway to go back into towns for services doesn't make sense". The Minister added the point in bypassing towns had been to reduce levels of traffic and this would be negated by an NRA policy which forced vehicles back into towns for services.

However corporate director of the NRA Michael Egan said there appeared to be some confusion about the policy as the NRA was already co-operating with the private sector to provide service areas. Mr Egan said six such areas were already proposed for the 70-kilometre M1 motorway and more were proposed for other routes.

According to the NRA, the annual report made reference to a change in policy from not providing motorway services - a move which would see traffic diverted into the towns as the Minister feared - to proposing services in partnership with the private sector.

"We are proposing motorway services but we don't want them along the edge of the main motorway for safety reasons. So we are facilitating private-sector development around the interchanges and along slip roads," said Mr Egan.

In continental Europe motorway service areas had given rise to safety concerns and for this reason service areas such as Dublin's Liffey Valley were accessed via a slip road that had been paid for by the private sector.

It was not envisaged, however, that all service areas will be that far from the main route and Mr Egan said the size of the Liffey Valley Centre and associated traffic volumes had dictated the slip road. "In terms of our policy we have moved a long way from sending lorries back into towns, and we've moved that way for some time, " Mr Egan said.

© The Irish Times

Am I the only one who can't find the clarification in that?

I'm fcuking sick of muppets here trying to re-invent the wheel. Maybe services are too english or something???

Online services with 24hr refuelling, rest area, toilets and food would be fine. Taking traffic off the mainline at a regular junction would be stupid. As for pikeys taking over-well that's an issue that we need to tackle anyway. Pikeys take over services=immediate expulsion by the guards. They've done it before with those pikeys at the end of the M1 near Dundalk when they were set up iin the central reservation.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

Online services with 24hr refuelling, rest area, toilets and food would be fine. Taking traffic off the mainline at a regular junction would be stupid. .

I agree! Just when you think the NRA are starting to become a professional organisation, this PR disaster...

Motorway service stations are essential not only for passengers' comfort and convenience, but for safety. The argument that "Ireland is a small country" so we don't need motorway service stations is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Holland is even smaller - yet the motorways all have service stations and rest stops along their routes. You should not have to drive for more than thirty minutes before reaching a service station offering snacks, petrol, hot food, and sanitary facilites.

Thomond Pk

DubTony wrote:

They then have (is it) 8 hours before they are legally obliged to stop and rest. 8 hours will see them in Cork - easily, and most of them only stop when they have to.

Dub Tony,

I am not trying to be argumentative but HGV regs require truckers to stop after 4 hours for 45 minutes, after 8 hours they must stop for a further 8 hours or 10 hours if that stop involves a ferry crossing of less than 10 hours. What complicates it further is that the restrictions relate to the vehicle and not the driver. Where this is very relevant is that unlike Ireland these regulations are enforced in the UK and if the mandatory breaks haven't been taken over the previous 24 hours the UK authorities will stop the vehicle for up to 24 hours and/or until the fines due are discharged.

DubTony

Thomond Pk wrote:

Dub Tony,

I am not trying to be argumentative but HGV regs require truckers to stop after 4 hours for 45 minutes, after 8 hours they must stop for a further 8 hours or 10 hours if that stop involves a ferry crossing of less than 10 hours. ....

Fair enough.

Thomond Pk

I spent a summer during school hitching accross Europe it was a fairly common topic of conversation and not something that one would ever seek to learn.

On your wider point Ireland is too small to have a large number of Knutsford style motorway services, the Country is just too small and the effect of having none is pushing HGV's into towns that were promised relief from heavy traffic.

I really believe that this point cannot be made strongly enough given that so many of trucks on the road are driven by foreign drivers who given the joke that passes for signage would be highly liable to get lost.

The NRA have to go

Lennoxschips

They should build petrol stations, which are a necessary facility on a major road, but not full rest stop service areas complete with McDonalds/Burger King and what have you, which will only take customers away from pubs and cafes in the towns, like all those godforsaken megamalls which we seem to be building everywhere in Ireland.

That's my take on the whole thing anyway.

strassenwolf

I remember coming across an Autobahn church over in Germany.

The idea was that people travelling long distances on the motorway could stop off for some quiet prayer at the church - onto the slip road, into the church, then back out onto the motorway.

Seemed like a nice idea and maybe one we could look at - when we've built some service stations.

gerrydublin

strassenwolf wrote:

I remember coming across an Autobahn church over in Germany. The idea was that people travelling long distances on the motorway could stop off for some quiet prayer at the church - onto the slip road, into the church, then back out onto the motorway.

Very witty
I'm sure the NRA could argue that god's everywhere, so why would you need a church. If you had a fast food joint where the service was as quick and efficient as my experience of NTL's, you could have the rosary said while you're in the queue!

Victor

gerrydublin wrote:

NTL

NTR*?

* Not that NTL are great

a_ominous

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I'm someone who has driven on the M50 on a regular basis over the years,
and FROM MY EXPERIENCE the most of the accidents I've seen have been at slip lanes.
Either it's from people trying to merge from sliplanes, or vehicles breaking suddenly because someone in front of them wants to swerve across a lane of traffic to get to an exit.
If you recently travelled southbound on the M50 pass the N4 slip lane, you would see that people were ignoring the slip lane and just cutting across the traffic island, the council has had to put bollards across the traffic island it was that bad.

The N4/M50 junction southbound is the only place where concrete bollards have been set up. As you pointed out this is to prevent people cutting from the slip road to the motorway too soon. The reason people tried this is to do with the morning rush hour. Traffic from the toll bridge does not accelerate away quickly enough to motorway speeds which causes the congestion. Most cars only reach about 80kmph by the Red Cow, N7 exit. As a motorcyclist on this road, I can filter through the traffic and have seen it every day. I had suggested on another thread that traffic lights be installed say at the Coldcuts Road or Cloverhill Road which could be used at peak times to artificially a large enough gap that people would use to reach a higher speed more quickly.
I've seen studies in the US where after accidents on a highway or in a tunnel, the cops don't allow vehicles past an accident, etc. until there is a big enough clearance on the road ahead for cars to reach appropriate speeds.

Mind you that still won't stop the silly feckers from stopping to rubberneck at a the most trivial thing like the muppets yesterday evening. :mad:

DubTony

My experience of the N4/M50 junction is that the traffic on the ramp doesn't move fast enough either and so the impatient drivers on the ramp used to cut across the ghost island. a_ominous, I'm curious about your traffic lights idea. Can you explain more or link to the other thread?

secret_squirrel

Is it just the case that the NRA dont want to pay for any of the work necessary to create the infrastructure for a services?

Lennoxschips wrote:

but not full rest stop service areas complete with McDonalds/Burger King

Why do you think they are called rest stops? :rolleyes:
They are meant to be places where you can get coffee a meal or even a knap not just fill up. Why would the locals want massive lorries in their high streets looking for a pee or a burger?

Contrary to the opinions in this thread the standardish layout for a UK motorway service station is : Petrol, Burger Franchise, Self Service Restaurant, Loo's and sometimes a Travel Lodge/Inn. Hardly a mega development.

murphaph

DubTony wrote:

My experience of the N4/M50 junction is that the traffic on the ramp doesn't move fast enough either and so the impatient drivers on the ramp used to cut across the ghost island. a_ominous, I'm curious about your traffic lights idea. Can you explain more or link to the other thread?

America and Britain have used traffic lights to regulate traffic flow onto motorways with some success.

Link

D'Peoples Voice

murphaph wrote:

I'm sorry but that's nonsense. We're talking about probably a couple of dozen services on he whole m-way network (when complete, which is some time off). Not installing them because they could increase accidents is crazy talk. That's an issue of driver training etc. Based on your 'logic' why not just build Dublin-Cork direct with no junctions?

Murphaph, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't introduce them, all I'm saying is that we should be selective as to the number needed.

Alun wrote:

Why should we have to forego the convenience of service stations merely because of the total incompetence of a few motorists who can't grasp something as simple as merging from a slip road? And, pray, what is the difference between turning off on a slip road to go to a nearby town to fill up, and turning of onto a slip road to a service station? I mean, going by your logic (?) we should ban motorways altogether because of the danger of slip roads ...

I'll explain what I meant was, on our motorways we already have turnoffs for the various towns that have been bypassed. Now the slip lanes are already there for these turnoffs, so we should locate the "services" at the top or at a safe distance from the top of the slip lane. The reason for this is 3-fold

no additional slip lanes than the ones we absolutely need

normal traffic entering and exiting the bypassed town may provide a STEADY flow of customers to the "services" station should it be the case that the motorway traffic does not

greater speeds can be maintained with the minimum of accidents

I'm 100% against sending motorway traffic through towns, but that does not mean we can't have the services close to the top of existing slip lanes.

Calina wrote:

This is just a little bit over-melodramatic.

Are you sure you're not talking about the Shell and McDonalds in Roscrea? Because I can't think of one outside Nenagh at all, and if it is the one in Roscrea, for a motorway, that's an insane idea.

Caline, you may be right, it could be Roscrea. When the road structure around is done right, it can work. If I can remember back 4 years ago when I last went into that garage, I only had to leave the N7 road for a very short distance, and likewise to get back on.
There was never any problems with car parks being full and having to park on hard shoulders etc. Or having to pull out onto a hard shoulder and having my vision blocked by Long artic's parked behind me on the hard shoulder.

Calina

D'People's Voice,

There is no way in hell that the Shell/McD outside Roscrea is a suitable example for "what could work" on a motorway. The N7 at that point is a single carriage way, and the Shell/McD are off a roundabout, which are noticeably absent from motorways.

There is not very much parking there, either in the McDs, or the Shell. My personal opinion is that it's hardly suitable as a rest-stop for haulage travel - and the fact that I've never seen any trucks stopped there would seem to suggest that truck-drivers agree. Some of them occasionally stop on the hard shoulder a bit further on which is not exactly sensible for a motorway.

In any case, your three "reasons" for locating rest-stops off existing motorway exits are not exactly dependable.

Absolute need is debateable - I would contend that it's absolutely necessary to provided dedicated access to the rest stops in which case, what I consider to be absollutely necessary is slightly higher than what you consider to be necessary.

Your second idea about providing a steady flow of customers is "maybe" dependent and as far as I'm concerned, should not be a primary driver in decision making.

I'm not at all sure I understand the logic of your third idea.

The way I see it is we have a need for something, ie rest/refuelling stops on the motorways and instead of doing the logical thing and building them - one either side of the motorway - we, in this country, are faffing about wondering how we can be clever about it. It doesn't get done any faster - and let's be honest, it takes years and years longer to do things. Why in the name of god wasn't it factored into the building of the motorways in the first place?

a_ominous

DubTony wrote:

My experience of the N4/M50 junction is that the traffic on the ramp doesn't move fast enough either and so the impatient drivers on the ramp used to cut across the ghost island. a_ominous, I'm curious about your traffic lights idea. Can you explain more or link to the other thread?

The link to other boards thread probably wouldn't help. I tried to find a site that might illustrate my point. The closest I could find was this

I don't think this would work on N4/M50 junction as the slip road is, IMNSHO not the cause of the congestion on the M50. The slow moving traffic on the M50 is the cause of the tailback from the M50 onto the N4.
By placing traffic lights over the M50 southbound at either of the Coldcuts Road or Cloverhill Road, we can introduce a gap into the traffic which people can accelerate harder into. I'm only suggesting these roads as I believe lights could be fitted to the bridge structure easily.

My suggestion could also be tested very easily by putting a few guards on the M50 at either point to control the traffic in a similar manner for a week or two. But, this would need to be signalled before it it tried so that the inattentive drivers are trying to slow down and rubberneck a non-existant ferris wheel or RTA or fly on the wall.

DubTony

I get it. But I'm not sure it would work anywhere on the M50 as the volume of traffic trying to get onto the motorway is massive and this system would cause huge tailbacks on the roads leading to it.

I can see how it might work if the tolls were gone and the exits from the M50 were freeflow. In actual fact, if exits were completely freeflow most of the M50 congestion would disappear anyway. For a couple of years at least.

a_ominous

Hi DubTony

The N4/M50 southbound junction is unique in that you have traffic trying to merge from the N4 into an almost stationary traffic flow. Which just ain't gonna work. And don't forget there are 3 lanes of traffic coming from the N4 onto the M50 southbound: 2 from the west and 1 from the east.

The traffic has to be moving, there has to be gaps in the flow for merging to work in the macroscopic sense. Can't just look at this on an individual car basis.

Another possibility would be to continue the concrete bollards further along the slip road. The intention would be to get the 2 lanes from the toll bridge up to a higher speed (min 60kmph) and the merging traffic would also be travelling at a higher speed into a larger gap. :cool:

Trying 2 alternative Engineering solutions, as Enforcement doesn't happen (when's the min 30mph enforced?). As for Education, don't get me started. We're just not going to raise the standard of Irish driving soon enough for it to make a difference here. Too many other issues to be resolved first. :rolleyes:

secret_squirrel

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I'm 100% against sending motorway traffic through towns, but that does not mean we can't have the services close to the top of existing slip lanes.

Its worth mentioning that a lot of the newer services stations in the UK have been set up like this ever since they abolished the 12 mile rule. It seems to work reasonably well.

It tends to be that land is fairly cheap directly on top of a motorway junctions so it makes sense for private enterprise too.