Education is a privilege, not a right.

ItalianStallion

I know it will be extremely unpopular, but I am against free fees. I think ungreatfull students should be happy to only have to pay around 5K a year for a good education. i have to pay almost 30k a year for lawschool, but you dont see me marching in the streets! the fees keep riff-raff and those who have nothing better to do out. any qualifyied person can get a scholarship over here too, thats why we have a lower percentage of dropouts.
if everyone had an education, who would work in the factories? we would be screwed like Spain where everyone is underemployed. production costs go up and the economy is stiffled. not everyone on a ship can be the captain!
Pithy, but true!
Christopher Gambino

dermot_sheehan

ItalianStallion wrote:

I know it will be extremely unpopular, but I am against free fees. I think ungreatfull students should be happy to only have to pay around 5K a year for a good education. i have to pay almost 30k a year for lawschool, but you dont see me marching in the streets! the fees keep riff-raff and those who have nothing better to do out. any qualifyied person can get a scholarship over here too, thats why we have a lower percentage of dropouts.
if everyone had an education, who would work in the factories? we would be screwed like Spain where everyone is underemployed. production costs go up and the economy is stiffled. not everyone on a ship can be the captain!
Pithy, but true!
Christopher Gambino

I only paid about EUR 600 for law school last year.

Then again I know how to spell privilege

ItalianStallion

gabhain7 wrote:

I only paid about EUR 600 for law school last year.

Then again I know how to spell privilege

poor spelling is a sign of a good education. it means you were taught phonetically, which takes a smaller teacher to student ratio.

tell me, how much will you make your first year out? (smug grin)
i will start at from anywhere 80,000-100,000 pa. im going to buy a new mercedes or maybe a porsche. money is no judge or justification of the greatness of the position, but i dont have to be a slave right out of school like attorneys in Ireland either. dont you think you should be paid for what your time is worth?

joe.

What has this to do with TCD? Get a life dude.

damnyanks

ItalianStallion wrote:

poor spelling is a sign of a good education. it means you were taught phonetically, which takes a smaller teacher to student ratio.

tell me, how much will you make your first year out? (smug grin)
i will start at from anywhere 80,000-100,000 pa. im going to buy a new mercedes or maybe a porsche. money is no judge or justification of the greatness of the position, but i dont have to be a slave right out of school like attorneys in Ireland either. dont you think you should be paid for what your time is worth?

I'm a second year software student and will be doing an internship this year. I will be earning roughly 65k americano dolla per year...

smug grin

With third level being almost free in comparision it helps the more inteligent / driven people come out with good qualifications to either A) Become more informed people or use it towards their profession.

See in America idiots like you can take out a morgage and get qualified quicker then someone that is actually inteligent but cannot afford the insainly high tutition costs.

Andrew 83

The current grants system in operation in Ireland is inadaquete. Therefore if fees were brought back in Education would be a privilege not for those of the highest academic ability but for those with the most money. Education is then not a right or a privilege, purely a tool for ensuring the divide between rich and poor remains unbridged no matter what the abilities of anyone.

Free fees haven't gone far enough, it's time all secondary schools were free too.

John

ItalianStallion wrote:

poor spelling is a sign of a good education. it means you were taught phonetically, which takes a smaller teacher to student ratio.

Or it means you're thick because you didn't even spell privilege phonetically. Here's some free education for you.

masteroftherealm

And what has being able to buy a car got to do with anything?? Yes the irish law system is difficult but the result at the end is some of the most highly regarded law professionals in the world, you however will live as a leech for the rest of your life most probably crawling around hospitals trying to suck peole dry. I agree with Joe. Get a life man!!!

masterofthereal

masterofthereal wrote:

And what has being able to buy a car got to do with anything??

I assume it's to do with his small penis?

RE*AC*TOR

John2 wrote:

Or it means you're thick because you didn't even spell privilege phonetically. Here's some free education for you.

yep - he defiently missed a syllable there.

masteroftherealm

Ah the classic american symptom of trying to make allowances for his penis... poor american... dont ya feel sorry fo them?(NO!!!!!!!!)? Can i get a collective awwwww? :rolleyes:

DrIndy

Myth wrote:

I assume it's to do with his small penis?

Be nice.........

ItalianStallion is doing his usual of raising salient topics of debate and not shirking some controversy. Debate back, don't castigate.

He has a point - for the sake of argument, I will also have an excellent salary - and I can well afford fees as a result - should I not pay then?

There is also an issue that rates for lawyers and doctors are so high in the US is because people are paying off their loans from college. I am getting tempted to move the USA to work, I would earn twice what I earn here while living in a country which has half the cost of living........

What has this to do with TCD? Get a life dude.

IS is a former TCD student

And what has being able to buy a car got to do with anything??

America unlike Ireland is a car obsessed nation so its like owning a nice house or indeed more important as a symbol of good living.....

Finally, this is a debate. Attack the content, not the poster - personal insults demonstrate an clear inability to think independently with which to counter points in a debate. It is also very rude.

DrIndy

DrIndy wrote:

Be nice.........

Heh, couldn't help it. If I wasn't going to do it, I'm sure Crash would have.

masteroftherealm

True true this is a debate and i think that IS has raised a very impotrant thing, that americans ARE obsessed with googs. Their life is jusged on their material possesions is it not? What king of life is that to ASPIRE to?

masteroftherealm

That was supposed to say goods.

DrIndy

True, america is a very materialistic nation. I have been speaking to various young people here and their obsession is not for a good life - but to earn as much money as possible. I spoke to a very sound fella who told me of his interest in engineering - but he did not want to be an engineer, but to be the CEO of an engineering company. Many people speak like that.

Americans are very ambitious and there is huge societal pressure on being successful. Its the american dream.

People also criticise the american education system because of the high fees charged. Remember the top universities in the world are in the USA. They are the top universities because they can fund their courses properly with student fees. So you pay, but get an outstanding world class education...... is that wrong?

masteroftherealm

Yes it is, your standard of education shouldnt depend on your parents income. Some of the most successful people in the world has proven that. And also your place in society and monetary value has no relationship with either your capacity as a person or as to your intellegence, so where is the right for someone to have money and be educated whereas someone who does not has to go without?

masteroftherealm

Hey Unfortunatly i Gotta Go, Leaving Cert To Study For But We Should continue this at some stage. PM me. Later all!!

Talliesin

ItalianStallion wrote:

poor spelling is a sign of a good education. it means you were taught phonetically, which takes a smaller teacher to student ratio.

And that explains your inability to master the capitalisation rules of English and the poor style of refering to your own posts as "pithy" then?

Capt'n Midnight

ItalianStallion wrote:

I know it will be extremely unpopular, but I am against free fees.

You are missing the point completely.

You get best value for money spent on education when you spend it earlier. Rather than fund those few who go on to Uni , primary schools should be state of the art. Secondary schools also deserve increased funding but the shortfall is nowhere near primary leve. Judging by the costs that foreign students have to pay at the college of surgeons, each Uni student in a technical couse uses the same resources as a primary class.

Having people properly educated before third level would save a lot of time there, a lot of first year in some courses is spent going back over stuff that the applicants should know already.

Also over their working lives third level students tend to pay back in extra tax what they have been funded. With primary school students it's probably paid back before they are 21.

I'm not a fan of Hire-Education

ApeXaviour

DrIndy wrote:

Finally, this is a debate. Attack the content, not the poster - personal insults demonstrate an clear inability to think independently with which to counter points in a debate. It is also very rude.

I agree. Although ItallionStallion's point of view may differ from many of ours, it is still one held by a lot of people where he comes from. He is no troll. Any more attacks on the poster will result in deletion and possibly a short ban.

Carry on..

ItalianStallion

damnyanks wrote:

I'm a second year software student and will be doing an internship this year. I will be earning roughly 65k americano dolla per year...


With third level being almost free in comparision it helps the more inteligent / driven people come out with good qualifications to either A) Become more informed people or use it towards their profession.

See in America idiots like you can take out a morgage and get qualified quicker then someone that is actually inteligent but cannot afford the insainly high tutition costs.

actually, your system allows the stupid to continue their education as they can attend without scholarships. it rewards the stupid/lazy. that is a waste of your taxes.
Im lucky, I can afford the cost of tuition. but if i couldent, i would be elegiable for a scholarship.

snorlax

who the heck could spend that much on a car.....

especially when you could buy a small tank/ airlplane....or a small part of the secret service to protect you.

nah id prefer to keep my brain then my money, allows me to keep a better perspective on things and keep in mind the bigger picture in life and the fact that there's anotehr 6 billion people out there apart from me.

it figures people are what they talk about most, and the more they talk about it the more central role it probably plays in improving their own self concept/ self worth (eg money, cars), perphaps it's done as a way to prove im better then you so get down on your kness and grovel now, and in case you don't forget ill just telling you.....

also, is the whole american dream not a bit of a joke eg that testified by Arthur Miller's Death Of A Salesman whereby Willy choose to forfit his own desires(and his sons) in order to live out the american dream, whereby he utlimatey drove them (and himself) into unfufilling white collared jobs and ended up topping himself cos he came to grips with reality and the truth that money does not necessarily equate wuth happiness, i mean there must have been millions of other books about the shallowness of the american idealism, and it is shallow, becase it values money above human life, eg the healthcare system chooses who to treat based on whether poeple have money/ insurance or not, is that not wrong to let people die unnecessarily while if the richer amercians sold off some of their 100,000 mercs they could probably afford to pay for a few people's lives to be saved...is there not something wrong there? as an OT i don't chose who i get to help based on income, and i m glad its that way as many of the geriatric clients im working with couldn't afford the extra help and would probably die quicker with the help of the multi disciplinary team (eg nures, physios, ots etc)

ItalianStallion

Andrew 83 wrote:

The current grants system in operation in Ireland is inadaquete. Therefore if fees were brought back in Education would be a privilege not for those of the highest academic ability but for those with the most money. Education is then not a right or a privilege, purely a tool for ensuring the divide between rich and poor remains unbridged no matter what the abilities of anyone.

Free fees haven't gone far enough, it's time all secondary schools were free too.

you sound like a socialist. how do you expect the state to pay for that? also, the class system is not such a bad thing. I wouldent want my children mixing with innercity knackers if i lived in Dublin

ItalianStallion

masterofthereal wrote:

And what has being able to buy a car got to do with anything?? Yes the irish law system is difficult but the result at the end is some of the most highly regarded law professionals in the world, you however will live as a leech for the rest of your life most probably crawling around hospitals trying to suck peole dry. I agree with Joe. Get a life man!!!

no, your are thinking of a plaintiff's attorney. im going into international law. highly reguarded? the system of law you have over there is funny. the lawyer is reduced in his profession to that of either a paper pusher of a barrister with his hands tied to a paper pusher.

ItalianStallion

masterofthereal wrote:

True true this is a debate and i think that IS has raised a very impotrant thing, that americans ARE obsessed with googs. Their life is jusged on their material possesions is it not? What king of life is that to ASPIRE to?

no, our life is based on ideas. it is just that the blesings of freedom have fallen on our ways. it is europeans who are matrealistic. look at your policy. socialist inspired. this is because y'all judge policy and happiness by someone's matreal state. so the impetus of many of your laws seeks to increase the matreal state of a person, but neglects the state of his values.

ItalianStallion

masterofthereal wrote:

Yes it is, your standard of education shouldnt depend on your parents income. Some of the most successful people in the world has proven that. And also your place in society and monetary value has no relationship with either your capacity as a person or as to your intellegence, so where is the right for someone to have money and be educated whereas someone who does not has to go without?

that is what scholarships are for. any qualifyied poor person can get a free ride plus living expences. i know that is a thorn in the heel for many of you, but its true. people with money have a bigger stake in the nation and should have more say then the poor though

ItalianStallion

Talliesin wrote:

And that explains your inability to master the capitalisation rules of English and the poor style of refering to your own posts as "pithy" then?

when i am in a hurry to answer all of the posts before i have to go, sometimes i neglect those rules for the sake of expediency. but really, it is only those who have no other points to make that focus on the mechanics of ones blogs. you need some better matreal!

ItalianStallion

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You are missing the point completely.

You get best value for money spent on education when you spend it earlier. Rather than fund those few who go on to Uni , primary schools should be state of the art. Secondary schools also deserve increased funding but the shortfall is nowhere near primary leve. Judging by the costs that foreign students have to pay at the college of surgeons, each Uni student in a technical couse uses the same resources as a primary class.

Having people properly educated before third level would save a lot of time there, a lot of first year in some courses is spent going back over stuff that the applicants should know already.

Also over their working lives third level students tend to pay back in extra tax what they have been funded. With primary school students it's probably paid back before they are 21.

I'm not a fan of Hire-Education

its not the job of the state to educate the masses. if private companies want to thats fine, but i dont like having to pay for a service i dont agree with. i went to private schools, and think i should have gotten a tax break. socialists love taxes dont they?

ItalianStallion

snorlax wrote:

who the heck could spend that much on a car.....

especially when you could buy a small tank/ airlplane....or a small part of the secret service to protect you.

nah id prefer to keep my brain then my money, allows me to keep a better perspective on things and keep in mind the bigger picture in life and the fact that there's anotehr 6 billion people out there apart from me.

it figures people are what they talk about most, and the more they talk about it the more central role it probably plays in improving their own self concept/ self worth (eg money, cars), perphaps it's done as a way to prove im better then you so get down on your kness and grovel now, and in case you don't forget ill just telling you.....

also, is the whole american dream not a bit of a joke eg that testified by Arthur Miller's Death Of A Salesman whereby Willy choose to forfit his own desires(and his sons) in order to live out the american dream, whereby he utlimatey drove them (and himself) into unfufilling white collared jobs and ended up topping himself cos he came to grips with reality and the truth that money does not necessarily equate wuth happiness, i mean there must have been millions of other books about the shallowness of the american idealism, and it is shallow, becase it values money above human life, eg the healthcare system chooses who to treat based on whether poeple have money/ insurance or not, is that not wrong to let people die unnecessarily while if the richer amercians sold off some of their 100,000 mercs they could probably afford to pay for a few people's lives to be saved...is there not something wrong there? as an OT i don't chose who i get to help based on income, and i m glad its that way as many of the geriatric clients im working with couldn't afford the extra help and would probably die quicker with the help of the multi disciplinary team (eg nures, physios, ots etc)

i respect your disconnected idealism. but the American dream is alive and well. my father left Sicily after the war because it was devestated. he came to America and worked hard and succeded. he is happy with what he does and his dream now is only to provide for his children.
your vision is scary. forced nationalizations of property sounds orwellian. the poor in this country still have better health care then Ireland. how? well, because of blue cross/sheild, county hospitals and private charities. it is law that a doctor here cant refuse to treat anyone. our poor live longer then yours and i wouldent blame that all on better breeding either.

ozt9vdujny3srf

ItalianStallion wrote:

that is what scholarships are for. any qualifyied poor person can get a free ride plus living expences. i know that is a thorn in the heel for many of you, but its true. people with money have a bigger stake in the nation and should have more say then the poor though

Y'Know I reckon you're a troll, but hey I'll respond anyway.

Firstly, (and this is a bit petty really but hey!), Generally speaking I'd expect Lawyers to be well able to put their point across in an eloquent, clear and grammatically correct manner. You seem to be incapable of such a feat. Do you not get taught on how to do this in Law school?

I understand that spelling isn’t everyone’s forte, but having said that why don't you do as the majority of other bad spellers do on this board and use spell check before posting. The amount of mistakes in your post makes the thing quite annoying to read.

As for fee's / scholarships, while i accept the Irish system is not perfect it is more fair then the American system. Why should people with money have it any easier when it comes to getting into higher education? Is free education not a good goal to have for a society? People with money shouldn’t be charged a premium simply because they want an education. It is through the taxation system that they should be paying.

I do agree with you on the point of private schools, it seem to be one of the better ways of getting into higher education due to the problems that come with public schools. This is because they are filled with people who simply don't want to be there. This is indicative of the flaws in the system. The Irish secondary school system is one dimensional. It suits those with academic talent and no-one else. Alternatives should be provided by the state to cater for those not interested in academics (such as a specialised trade school).