Education is a privilege, not a right.

xeduCat

Two points if we're going to be talking about respect and decorum:

1) multiple posts one after another by the same author is difficult on the eye and the mind - would it be possible to perhaps respond in one post (covering a plurality of issues if necessary)

2) "I wouldent want my children mixing with innercity knackers if i lived in Dublin" (ItalianStallion) does not reflect an acceptable way for anyone to conduct themselves in this debate, and although a valid point of view (on the grounds that free expression is inherently a good thing), is about as appropriate as the (rightly criticised) personal attacks on the same person. We can't say that personal attacks are bad, but offensive attacks on segments of society are good. (Personally I believe that attacks are a good thing, although it's up to moderators to decide how much to eat into that in order to preserve fairness and access - my point is that either it's an entirely unrestricted open debate (in which case anything goes), or there are standards (in which case, in my view, the above charming statement falls below).

Andrew 83

ItalianStallion wrote:

you sound like a socialist. how do you expect the state to pay for that? also, the class system is not such a bad thing. I wouldent want my children mixing with innercity knackers if i lived in Dublin

You get the money by taxing the rich. They end up paying not much more than now as they don't have to pay for their kids to go to private schools and the standard of the schools improve for everyone. That way everyone gets a fair chance at education.

Your point about scholarships (in Ireland at least, I can't speak for the US) is flawed as:

1) in order to get to third level people have to have had a good crack at secondary school which they may not have had and secondary school scholarships won't solve that either as many people may not have started taking their education fully seriously by the grand old age of 12.

2) just handing out to the very top achieving poorer band of society means you get more people of less well off backgrounds into college (which I obviously completely support) but you don't get a fairer spread overall. For the most part you will still get a situation where two people of the same intelligence the rich person will normally get to the top as their parents can afford to pay them through secondary school or college if neither is good enough for a scholarship but good enough for entry.

Kevin_rc_ie

EduCat wrote:

Two points if we're going to be talking about respect and decorum:

1) multiple posts one after another by the same author is difficult on the eye and the mind - would it be possible to perhaps respond in one post (covering a plurality of issues if necessary)

2) "I wouldent want my children mixing with innercity knackers if i lived in Dublin" (ItalianStallion) does not reflect an acceptable way for anyone to conduct themselves in this debate, and although a valid point of view (on the grounds that free expression is inherently a good thing), is about as appropriate as the (rightly criticised) personal attacks on the same person. We can't say that personal attacks are bad, but offensive attacks on segments of society are good. (Personally I believe that attacks are a good thing, although it's up to moderators to decide how much to eat into that in order to preserve fairness and access - my point is that either it's an entirely unrestricted open debate (in which case anything goes), or there are standards (in which case, in my view, the above charming statement falls below).

I disagree entirely with Educat. I think it was very easy on the eye with IS taking each specific reply seperately. I think if he would have posted all of the above in the same post, and as muh ppl do, not identifying who posted it would have been less understandable.

Also, I think posts like this "you're a bad speller and don't use grammar properly, therefore we must post thing out" are completely irrelvant to the conversation. However, the following

ItalianStallion wrote:

"I wouldent want my children mixing with innercity knackers if i lived in Dublin"

, although i beleive it to be completely stupid, naive and snobby, brings a lot to the conversation. Firstly, because I'm sure this is actually his genuine point of view and secondly it's completely different to most others.

To be more on topic, I do beleive that Education is a right and should be accesible to all. However, I'd rather encourage those already interested then try and shove young people who don't care into the educational system.

Truckle made a great point that their should be old style Technical schools around. We're they teach you the proper tools of the carpentry, plumbing and similar trades. These are often thought as apprenticeships would some exams in DIT but I think 15 year old plus would gain just as much been thought in schools in these subjects.

I think a few people have forgotten that not a whole lot of people value education behind the Second level. And rightfully so in some ways, you don't need a degree in philosophy or classics to be a good person. And you don't need a degree in law, medicine or engineering to become wealthy. Obviously there's the extrems examples such as Virgin Cola balloon guy but lot's of wealthy trade people and constuctuion people never did the LC.

And just to address what ItalianStalion said, I think you can benefit a lot from going to school were there is a natural mixture of stupid and intelligent people, boys and girls, the poorer and the richer, the obnoxius and the saintly and the knaks and the toffs. It gives you a much better, acurate perspective on life because firstly you may realise that the "knak" isn't actually a knak and you may also prove that who you think is a sterotypical knak is a knak. Nothing annoys me more than people saying, ah sure wouldn't that dude he just battered a granny and robbed 20 euro off her be such a much better boy if he went to a good school and his parents were rich. NOT TRUE. Also, I'm well aware that just because you're from the 8 educational/crime blackspots of Dublin, doesn't mean you're a no hoper either.

Andrew 83

The Leaving Cert Applied caters for more technical skills to an extent.

John

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

Also, I think posts like this "you're a bad speller and don't use grammar properly, therefore we must post thing out" are completely irrelvant to the conversation.

I disagree with you here, criticising an education system and clogging up all your posts with extremely poor spelling makes it hard to take him seriously. He obviously has a lot of time on his hands with the amount he types so checking a dictionary or using a spellchecker isn't going to kill him.

Kevin_rc_ie

actually i meant to say point this out. i think everyone noticed the bad spelling and the lack of capitals. but why shout it out? twice? it's like me saying, he posts in black while i sometimes post in red, why state the obvious?

ozt9vdujny3srf

When IS it ok to point out and grammar and spelling?. A little I don't mind, but it comes to a point where spelling and grammar ges so bad that the distract from the point the poster is making. I was also half sort of picking at his apparantly fantastic education.

damnyanks

ItalianStallion wrote:

actually, your system allows the stupid to continue their education as they can attend without scholarships. it rewards the stupid/lazy. that is a waste of your taxes.
Im lucky, I can afford the cost of tuition. but if i couldent, i would be elegiable for a scholarship.

Your system rewards the people who can afford to pay. At least in Ireland a student is supported for 1 year of each year (1st year, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). If they are stupid they will more then likely fail and have to pay full fee's if they choose to repeat or move onto another course. This of course is assuming they even made it to third level.

I'm not very familiar with the American system but from what I gather you can pay for your place in some highly rated universities either through donations or paying the full tuition cost.

I would also like to point out that its rare to come across someone that is stupid someone who does not do well academically more then likely just isn't motivated enough to work at their education. I say this after achieving something like 290 leaving cert points. The job I have taken after being offered many more involved me beating a few hundred applicants for 1 position as well as surpassing students from oxford, cambridge and imperial at apptitude tests and interviews to secure the position.

Point is everyone should have the chance to study for a degree if they so choose. I don't know the exact percentage for how much of the worlds population actually have access to “higher education” or study at that level or even basic education in some cases. There are far smarter people then both you and I that because of where they are from will never be able to afford $30,000 courses nor will they be in the position to afford forms or research for scholarships.

The only real plus that I can see from charging such high fee’s is that at least the institution will have good facilities and staff available to them.

Crash

Myth wrote:

Heh, couldn't help it. If I wasn't going to do it, I'm sure Crash would have.

*looks innocent, then points at the crotch*

ItalianStallion

Aleena Teeny Musketeer wrote:

Y'Know I reckon you're a troll, but hey I'll respond anyway.

Firstly, (and this is a bit petty really but hey!), Generally speaking I'd expect Lawyers to be well able to put their point across in an eloquent, clear and grammatically correct manner. You seem to be incapable of such a feat. Do you not get taught on how to do this in Law school?

I understand that spelling isn’t everyone’s forte, but having said that why don't you do as the majority of other bad spellers do on this board and use spell check before posting. The amount of mistakes in your post makes the thing quite annoying to read.

As for fee's / scholarships, while i accept the Irish system is not perfect it is more fair then the American system. Why should people with money have it any easier when it comes to getting into higher education? Is free education not a good goal to have for a society? People with money shouldn’t be charged a premium simply because they want an education. It is through the taxation system that they should be paying.

I do agree with you on the point of private schools, it seem to be one of the better ways of getting into higher education due to the problems that come with public schools. This is because they are filled with people who simply don't want to be there. This is indicative of the flaws in the system. The Irish secondary school system is one dimensional. It suits those with academic talent and no-one else. Alternatives should be provided by the state to cater for those not interested in academics (such as a specialised trade school).

in regards to grammar, thats what secrataries are for! anyway, my elocution is tops and i speak in the most florid or articulate manner when the situation dictates. i dont know you, but i assume that you dont have much to offer in regards to debate. reading the rest of your post only confirms my suspicions.
i love how you use "forte." you probably think that means "strongpoint", but actually the latin word "fortis" does. "forte" is an unrelated Italian word. but hey, knowing is half the battle.
in America, poor people have the same chance in regards to getting into college if not a better one. colleges want diverse campus, so they get alot of poor people and minorities with lucrid scholarships. scholarships are infanitly more fair as they reward the meritious students as opposed to wasting money on the undeserving.
all liberals always want to increase taxes. we have a joke in America that conservatives want to think that everyday is the fourth of july, while liberals want to think every day is the fifteenth of April (the day taxes are due).
your hope for the state involvement in everything is orwellian

ItalianStallion

Andrew 83 wrote:

You get the money by taxing the rich. They end up paying not much more than now as they don't have to pay for their kids to go to private schools and the standard of the schools improve for everyone. That way everyone gets a fair chance at education.

Your point about scholarships (in Ireland at least, I can't speak for the US) is flawed as:

1) in order to get to third level people have to have had a good crack at secondary school which they may not have had and secondary school scholarships won't solve that either as many people may not have started taking their education fully seriously by the grand old age of 12.

2) just handing out to the very top achieving poorer band of society means you get more people of less well off backgrounds into college (which I obviously completely support) but you don't get a fairer spread overall. For the most part you will still get a situation where two people of the same intelligence the rich person will normally get to the top as their parents can afford to pay them through secondary school or college if neither is good enough for a scholarship but good enough for entry.

thanks karl. but i reject the notion of graduate income taxes as unfair. aside from the poor, we should all be taxed at the same rate. it closes the loopholes while creating an equtiable system. i applaud putin for doing this. anyway, brackets are so immorals as they reduce the value of my work because i work better/smarter/harder them someone who makes less. it is unfair and wrong to deprive me of the proper fruits of my labour.
as for scholarships, they go to the deserving poor but also the academically inclined of all classes. even the wealthy can get them for academic achievements or minority status. your theory doesnt hold water.
as for private schools, it is the resopnsibility of the parents, not the state.

ItalianStallion

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

I disagree entirely with Educat. I think it was very easy on the eye with IS taking each specific reply seperately. I think if he would have posted all of the above in the same post, and as muh ppl do, not identifying who posted it would have been less understandable.

Also, I think posts like this "you're a bad speller and don't use grammar properly, therefore we must post thing out" are completely irrelvant to the conversation. However, the following , although i beleive it to be completely stupid, naive and snobby, brings a lot to the conversation. Firstly, because I'm sure this is actually his genuine point of view and secondly it's completely different to most others.

To be more on topic, I do beleive that Education is a right and should be accesible to all. However, I'd rather encourage those already interested then try and shove young people who don't care into the educational system.

Truckle made a great point that their should be old style Technical schools around. We're they teach you the proper tools of the carpentry, plumbing and similar trades. These are often thought as apprenticeships would some exams in DIT but I think 15 year old plus would gain just as much been thought in schools in these subjects.

I think a few people have forgotten that not a whole lot of people value education behind the Second level. And rightfully so in some ways, you don't need a degree in philosophy or classics to be a good person. And you don't need a degree in law, medicine or engineering to become wealthy. Obviously there's the extrems examples such as Virgin Cola balloon guy but lot's of wealthy trade people and constuctuion people never did the LC.

And just to address what ItalianStalion said, I think you can benefit a lot from going to school were there is a natural mixture of stupid and intelligent people, boys and girls, the poorer and the richer, the obnoxius and the saintly and the knaks and the toffs. It gives you a much better, acurate perspective on life because firstly you may realise that the "knak" isn't actually a knak and you may also prove that who you think is a sterotypical knak is a knak. Nothing annoys me more than people saying, ah sure wouldn't that dude he just battered a granny and robbed 20 euro off her be such a much better boy if he went to a good school and his parents were rich. NOT TRUE. Also, I'm well aware that just because you're from the 8 educational/crime blackspots of Dublin, doesn't mean you're a no hoper either.

i have been saying that about trade schools as an alternative for years. i think it should be funded by the private sector though, as that is where the jobs generally are, and the taxpayer is already overburdened in your country.
as for mixing, it is fine for some, but i like the time i spent in an all boys Jesuit school. not because im gay, but because the conversations can go deeper without being distracted by women and vice versa. a mix in school is often counter productive and unfair to the better students. on this note, Trinity should tighten enterence requirements, as they let too many idiots in. im sure you know what i mean!

ItalianStallion

Aleena Teeny Musketeer wrote:

When IS it ok to point out and grammar and spelling?. A little I don't mind, but it comes to a point where spelling and grammar ges so bad that the distract from the point the poster is making. I was also half sort of picking at his apparantly fantastic education.

seems to be all you can add to a debate

cuckoo

It's interesting comparing America and Ireland in terms of third level education. I believe it can be argued that Ireland needs an educated workforce more than America does. As an economy Ireland is reliant on technical jobs, look at the current concerns expressed about the dropping numbers studying science. It is in the country's interest to have an educated workforce (who hopefully will develop indigenous inventions and applications, not just work for multinationals), so the country pays to educate the workforce. And, an educated workforce is not just techie graduates, before i get accused of science bias.

The workforce then pays taxes to educate the next generation.

Also, American and Irish attitudes to education are very different, firstly an irish degree will be more focused than the equivalent American one - hence the need for grad school in the States. I don't think there's the same tendency for Irish students to go to college to 'find themselves', while trying different majors and taking courses across the college. Yes, our system may be narrower - but i don't see the need to take Eng Lit classes if i want a degree in science, we have secondary school for that. So when Irish people speak of 'getting an education' it's less of a nebulous ideal, there may be a reverence for the notion of education in the States, but in Ireland i think there's a belief in the outcome of education.

It's just a shame that any hangover notion of ourselves as the island of Saints and Scholars doesn't result in better funding of education.

John

ItalianStallion wrote:

on this note, Trinity should tighten enterence requirements, as they let too many idiots in. im sure you know what i mean!

Do US colleges have any requirements apart from being able to pay the fees? Like do you have to do exams to get into some courses like say a maths exam for a physics course?

damnyanks

ItalianStallion wrote:

thanks karl. but i reject the notion of graduate income taxes as unfair. aside from the poor, we should all be taxed at the same rate. it closes the loopholes while creating an equtiable system.

But at what level is someone in the poor category ? I'd love if we were all taxed at the same rate, I'd have more money. But realisticaly I will have enough even after being taxed at the higher rate, would someone who is in the lower bracket have enough (Assumeing tax rates were adjusted accordingly)? How many countries in the world tax everyone at the same rate (Except for tax free states). How strong is their economy as well as infrastructure. Does it actually work ?

as for mixing, it is fine for some, but i like the time i spent in an all boys Jesuit school. not because im gay, but because the conversations can go deeper without being distracted by women and vice versa. a mix in school is often counter productive and unfair to the better students. on this note, Trinity should tighten enterence requirements, as they let too many idiots in. im sure you know what i mean!

I too am the result of single sex private schools run by a religious order. I disagree with your opinion. Being exposed to other thoughts, beliefs and life styles helps your thought patterns. Different idea's stem from your new experiences and introduction to different backgrounds.

Where as from my own experience being surrounded by people of the same background only allows you to see things from one perspective. True that your conversations can go deeper. However it is only going deeper on that one groups perspective. The perspective on life may be so horribly incorrect that its not something thats socially accepted or PC.

At least if you have others from different backgrounds different views are expressed. The world is too small for a closed mind (Intention or otherwise)

damnyanks

John2 wrote:

Do US colleges have any requirements apart from being able to pay the fees? Like do you have to do exams to get into some courses like say a maths exam for a physics course?

You need to have certain subjects from high school to follow a certain degree program. Your high school GPA and standardised tests are taken into account as well.

But money can also help

The Shol'va

ItalianStallion wrote:

i love how you use "forte." you probably think that means "strongpoint", but actually the latin word "fortis" does. "forte" is an unrelated Italian word. but hey, knowing is half the battle.

Actually, it comes from the French word "fort" but is pronounced like the Italian word "forte", you arrogant twat.

Time Magazine

Christopher, the following two posts are just for you.

ItalianStallion wrote:

Our system was founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition

ItalianStallion wrote:

we reserve the right to attack hostile nations that threaten our interests (especially if there is an economic incentive)

Matthew 5:9 wrote:

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

ItalianStallion wrote:

im also mad about the end of talk of the 'nuclear option.'

John 18:11 wrote:

Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?

ItalianStallion wrote:

the only way i could see myself going there [China] would be leading a regiment or dropping bombs.

ItalianStallion wrote:

im gung-ho about attacking the nations you mention. bombs away! i bet silly europeans would be out defending those wonderfull nations. would you be in the streets?

Matthew 5:39 wrote:

But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

ItalianStallion wrote:

bonapart's greatest acheivement was getting his men to hold their rifles and fire instead of dropping them and running away.

Romans 12:20 wrote:

..If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.

ItalianStallion wrote:

No foreign nation shall have jurisdiction greater then our own. too bad if you dont like that, but thats the way it is.

Proverbs 21:13 wrote:

If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered

ItalianStallion wrote:

i do love sterotypes though, there's always a hint of truth in them.

ItalianStallion wrote:

but when one looks at what some of them did, you'd think a proper hanging was in order!

Colossians 3:12 wrote:

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

ItalianStallion wrote:

i was refering to the romanian ones. i help in the capture and deportation of two.

Ephesians 4:32 wrote:

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

ItalianStallion wrote:

if liberals had working brains, then why whould they follow eachother's lead on college campus's like sheep?

ItalianStallion wrote:

atheists are morons.

ItalianStallion wrote:

stupid college brats

ItalianStallion wrote:

THIS red-neck is more cultured, better traveled, more sophisticated and better read then you.

Matthew 5:22 wrote:

But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

ItalianStallion wrote:

someday i shall be a fine lawyer.

ItalianStallion wrote:

i poked alot of holes [in the condom]... as for the questionable morals, i was not the contraversial one

ItalianStallion wrote:

its sad how bitter people in other countries hate us for doing the right thing.

ItalianStallion wrote:

we protect Christian principals. we seek morality in our laws.

ItalianStallion wrote:

...has contributed so much to making us the greatest nation on the earth.

ItalianStallion wrote:

while you whine from your college campus's, we are deciding the fate of the world

Matthew 23:12 wrote:

For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Agent Smith

that took you 2 hours?


/me sighs

Time Magazine

And Christopher, this quote truly deserves this response.

ItalianStallion wrote:

tell me, how much will you make your first year out? (smug grin)
i will start at from anywhere 80,000-100,000 pa. im going to buy a new mercedes or maybe a porsche.

Proverbs 22:2 wrote:

Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.

Matthew 19:21 wrote:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Proverbs 29:7 wrote:

The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern

Job 20:10 wrote:

His children must make amends to the poor; his own hands must give back his wealth.

Psalm 82:3 wrote:

Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

Pslam 140:12 wrote:

..the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy.

Proverbs 14:31 wrote:

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.

Proverbs 19:17 wrote:

He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.

Mark 10:21 wrote:

Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack,' he said. 'Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'

Luke 6:20 wrote:

Looking at his disciples, he said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.'

Luke 6:24 wrote:

Woe unto you that are rich

Luke 14:13 wrote:

But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,

Mark 12:41-44 wrote:

Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, 'I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.'

Job 22:7-10 wrote:

You gave no water to the weary and you withheld food from the hungry, though you were a powerful man, owning land— an honored man, living on it. And you sent widows away empty-handed and broke the strength of the fatherless. That is why snares are all around you, why sudden peril terrifies you.

Revelation 3:17 wrote:

You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

Matthew 25:31-45 wrote:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

wow - bit crazy here.

don't knock the public schools; we have some brilliant ones here although perhaps not as much per capita in dublin as in the country

damnyanks

Roundtower2 wrote:

wow - bit crazy here.

don't knock the public schools; we have some brilliant ones here although perhaps not as much per capita in dublin as in the country

Don't be under the impression that private schools offer better education. Most of the time they just offer better facilities... at least from my own experience.

Then schools that only focus on exams generally don't give you a full education but rather just focus on how to get you the highest grade possible. Great how people can make a living from question spotting

masteroftherealm

It is or is it not true that your standing in life depends on either how lucky you are or how much money you can make. Scolarships are not an option for the most of us as we would not qualify for even the smallest amounts of cash, yet even in a relativly high income family(60k A Year) i will find it difficlut to make it through 4years of college financially? Therefore the option of college is extremely limited not noly by irelands flawed education system(the LC has no relation to your capacity to do any college course... i hope to do biblical and theology and greek, no subject apart from english in my LC has any bearing on this??)

ApeXaviour

The Shol'va wrote:

Actually, it comes from the French word "fort" but is pronounced like the Italian word "forte", you arrogant twat.

The Shol'va banned for 24 hours.. Let's keep this civil

snorlax

meeh, my ideas are based on good morals i grew up with...! have nothing to do with politics either (i don't like politics btw, my statements wer'e more to do with general realisms rather then poltics/ nationalism whether you choose to accept them or not.
i wager you to volunteer in a homeless centre and see them for yourself as your probably alittle divorced from their reality!

, may be the american dream is alive for you as a soon to be rich american, but it does not exist for many others.

personally id rather be poor and to be living in ireland then the states...

because yes as i repeat the healthcare service provides free medical service for all over 70's and dosnt require insurance. 1/3 of irish people that age and are below the povery line (according to the RTE News, last night).........


Chris =

ItalianStallion

cuckoo wrote:

It's interesting comparing America and Ireland in terms of third level education. I believe it can be argued that Ireland needs an educated workforce more than America does. As an economy Ireland is reliant on technical jobs, look at the current concerns expressed about the dropping numbers studying science. It is in the country's interest to have an educated workforce (who hopefully will develop indigenous inventions and applications, not just work for multinationals), so the country pays to educate the workforce. And, an educated workforce is not just techie graduates, before i get accused of science bias.

The workforce then pays taxes to educate the next generation.

Also, American and Irish attitudes to education are very different, firstly an irish degree will be more focused than the equivalent American one - hence the need for grad school in the States. I don't think there's the same tendency for Irish students to go to college to 'find themselves', while trying different majors and taking courses across the college. Yes, our system may be narrower - but i don't see the need to take Eng Lit classes if i want a degree in science, we have secondary school for that. So when Irish people speak of 'getting an education' it's less of a nebulous ideal, there may be a reverence for the notion of education in the States, but in Ireland i think there's a belief in the outcome of education.

It's just a shame that any hangover notion of ourselves as the island of Saints and Scholars doesn't result in better funding of education.

i agree that focused third level education is a better idea. i wish they did that in the states. it was one of the reasons i came over. forcing basic courses is a waste of time.

ItalianStallion

John2 wrote:

Do US colleges have any requirements apart from being able to pay the fees? Like do you have to do exams to get into some courses like say a maths exam for a physics course?

we have a bunch of tests, but i think your leaving cert is better then our methyod of matriculation.

ItalianStallion

damnyanks wrote:

But at what level is someone in the poor category ? I'd love if we were all taxed at the same rate, I'd have more money. But realisticaly I will have enough even after being taxed at the higher rate, would someone who is in the lower bracket have enough (Assumeing tax rates were adjusted accordingly)? How many countries in the world tax everyone at the same rate (Except for tax free states). How strong is their economy as well as infrastructure. Does it actually work ?



I too am the result of single sex private schools run by a religious order. I disagree with your opinion. Being exposed to other thoughts, beliefs and life styles helps your thought patterns. Different idea's stem from your new experiences and introduction to different backgrounds.

Where as from my own experience being surrounded by people of the same background only allows you to see things from one perspective. True that your conversations can go deeper. However it is only going deeper on that one groups perspective. The perspective on life may be so horribly incorrect that its not something thats socially accepted or PC.

At least if you have others from different backgrounds different views are expressed. The world is too small for a closed mind (Intention or otherwise)

each nation defines its poor diffrently. but thats nations account is generally fair. the poor and elderly should be exempt. the less well off will be in about the same place. a few states have put a flat tax in and it seems to be working. some congressmen want to put a bill through here that eliminates income tax and replaces it with a national sales tax of 24%. i like the idea, and hope they further debate it.
as for your notion of pluralism, i reject it. i seek orthodoxy in belief, true to its literal greek translation, as opposed to hertodoxy. it is better to see bad ideas while insulated against them. screw polotical correctness! its such a joke notion and not socially acceptable in honest socity. if you come from the right perspective, then you can better identify what is wrong as filters are in place. some call this close minded, i call this not being so open minded that your brain falls out!

ItalianStallion

The Shol'va wrote:

Actually, it comes from the French word "fort" but is pronounced like the Italian word "forte", you arrogant twat.

according to wheelock's latin, NO. it is the latin root "fortis." the literal Italian translation is the same, not "forte," which has a seperate meaning.