CL and UEFA Cup draws

The Rooster

The seeds and non-seeds for the first and second qualifying rounds of the Champions League have been confirmed by UEFA.

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL/news/Kind=1/newsId=310668.html

Both draws will be held on Friday from 11am.

As widely known Liverpool and Shels will both be seeded for Q1. Glentoran and TNS are among the non-seeds. The winner of Liverpool's Q1 match will be seeded in Q2, alongside Celtic. The winners of Shels Q1 match will be unseeded in Q2.

The Irish Times state today that Celtic have been pre-drawn to play Swiss side Thon. This is a mistake though made by mis-reading the UEFA website.

The UEFA Cup draw then follows at 1pm.

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UEFACup/news/Kind=1/newsId=310676.html

To limit the expense incurred by teams it has been split into regions, Northern, Southern-Med and Central East.

There are 22 teams in the Northern section, and Longford and Cork are ranked joint 11th of those 22. UEFA decided to rank Longford 11th (thus seeded) and Cork 12th (thus non-seeded) on the basis that winning the Cup is better than coming 2nd in the league. I'm sure there'll be a few Cork people disagreeing with that analysis!!

Linfield, Portadown, Rhyl and Camarathen are all among the unseeded sides. I'd imagaine Longford would prefer to keep clear of the Nordies, as there are certainly worse teams there. I dont think there is anything among the seeded sides that would overly worry Cork - though might be best to avoid the Danish and Norwegian sides.

gimmick

The Rooster wrote:

UEFA decided to rank Longford 11th (thus seeded) and Cork 12th (thus non-seeded) on the basis that winning the Cup is better than coming 2nd in the league. I'm sure there'll be a few Cork people disagreeing with that analysis!!

Nah. Longford were in the UEFA last season, we werent so..........

I think City can feel hard done by simply because the Northern Section was changed from 24 to 22 teams very late on. However, its not the end of the world. From a fans tarvelling point of view its a disaster, as its very expensive to get to any of these places. Ill be happy as long as we avoid the Norwegian team and the Danish team.

_blank_

City should come out of the first round, once they avoid the Danes or Norwegians, pity they aren't seeded though. They are playing really well at the moment, and once they can hold on to George O'Callaghan, who is stalling on a new contract, they should be ok.

Shels on the other hand will be hoping for Faroese, Welsh or Luxembourg opposition, especially given the way they are playing at the moment (although we did beat Kildare County in the league cup last night, whoop-di-do) they could do with playing a team they SHOULD beat, then beat them to restore confidence for the second round.

Hopefully all three teams can progress at least through their respective first rounds, and the fact that Longford are seeded could mean they have a better chance, especially if they draw one of the lower ranked unseeded teams.

Töpher

Jesus, think of the possible co-effs!

_blank_

Hang on a minute here.

I'd be happy enough if all three temas went through on Away Goals, as Shels did last season in the KR Reykjavik tie.

I'm under no illusions and know that CL games are a STEP-UP from eL games. People will hvae higher expectations of our teams in Europe this season, because of both Shels and Cork City's unbelievable runs last season.

I feel a lot of people will be left disappointed.

Töpher

I said "possible" Just as any of those teams on their day could do pretty well, especially with the Town having a slightly "easier" draw. If Shels can get back onto a winning run in the league (or at least stop losing), I'd be confident of making it to the 2nd round anyways.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

_blank_

ziggy67 wrote:

I would hardly describe Cork winning a couple of InterToto games an " unbelievable run"

No, but THEY would

gimmick

^^^ :rolleyes:

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

applehunter

The performance of Bohs and Longford last year almost negated the efforts of Cork and Shels IMO.

uberwolf

liverpool have also been confirmed as a top seed for the group stages should they qualify. With no country protection they could still be drawn against Everton or Chelsea at that stage.

_blank_

applehunter wrote:

The performance of Bohs and Longford last year almost negated the efforts of Cork and Shels IMO.

It couldn't have negated anything Cork City did. There was no Co-efficient available for the Inter-twobob.

Big Nelly

# Top group: 1 Real Madrid (Spa) 131.326, 2 Barcelona (Spa) 117.326, 3 AC Milan (Ita) 121.191, 4 Liverpool (Eng, title-holders) 115.864***, 5 Manchester United (Eng) 110.864*, 6 Inter Milan (Ita) 101.191*, 7 Bayern Munich (Ger) 97.166, 8 Arsenal (Eng) 93.864.

# Second group: 9 Porto (Por) 93.739, 10 Juventus (Ita) 93.191, 11 PSV Eindhoven (Hol) 84.145, 12 Chelsea (Eng) 68.864, 13 Lyon (Fra) 81.324, 14 Olympiacos (Gre) 46.715, 15 Schalke 04 (Ger) 44.166, 16 Sparta Prague (Cze) 43.223.

# Third group: 17 Lille (Fra) 41.324, 18 Benfica (Por) 36.739, 19 Fenerbahce (Tur) 23.872, 20 Panathinaikos (Gre) 70.715*, 21 Celtic (Sco) 63.476**, 22 Villarreal (Spa) 58.326*, 23 Sporting Lisbon (Por) 55.739*, 24 Monaco (Fra) 53.324*.

# Fourth group: 25 Ajax (Hol) 52.145*, Bruges (Bel) 50.476*, 27 Anderlecht (Bel) 47.476**, 28 Rangers (Sco) 40.476*, 29 Dynamo Kiev (Ukr) 40.200**, 30 Werder Bremen (Ger) 40.166*, 31 Lokomotiv Moscow (Rus) 38.469**, 32 Rosenborg (Nor) 36.665*.

# Others: 42 Everton FC (ENG) 20.864*.

* = must play one qualifying round.

** = must play two qualifying rounds.

*** = must play three qualifying rounds.

gimmick

Im sure shels would settle nicely for the 'intertwobob' at the end of this campaign

City made a nice bit of money out of their trip last year, beat some decent teams, and played some excellent football.

Screw the co-efficient.

I made a bold prediction many months ago saying Shels wouldnt progress past one stage. Nothing Ive seen/heard has made me change my view on this.

_blank_

I think we'll progress past the first stage if we draw one the team from Wales, The Faroes or Luxembourg, we'll beat them too.

Anything apart from that and I'd take Away goals to go through, but if we draw any of the "top" half of the unseeded side, say the top one or two we could struggle, exactly as KR Reykjavik did against us last season.

edit - just to expand on that.
Here's the list of unseeded teams, and how I think we'd do against them

FK Rabotnicki (MKD) - struggle, would be happy with Away goals, but probably lose
FC Dinamo Minsk (BLR) - ditto
FC Pyunik (ARM) - Armenian Champions - Away goals
Sliema Wanderers FC (MLT) - Revenge against the Maltese for the Hibs debacle
KF Tirana (ALB) - Should beat them, but would take away goals
FC Levadia Tallinn (EST) - Beat Bohs last year, improved this year, we'd struggle on current form, but it would be great to beat them.
Glentoran FC (NIR) - I think we'd beat these
Total Network Solutions FC (WAL) - Win
F91 Dudelange (LUX) - Win
PFC Neftchi (AZE) - Away goals
HB Tórshavn (FAR) - Win
FC Kairat Almaty (KAZ) - Away goals

eirebhoy

Big Nelly wrote:

# Top group: 1 Real Madrid (Spa) 131.326, 2 Barcelona (Spa) 117.326, 3 AC Milan (Ita) 121.191, 4 Liverpool (Eng, title-holders) 115.864***, 5 Manchester United (Eng) 110.864*, 6 Inter Milan (Ita) 101.191*, 7 Bayern Munich (Ger) 97.166, 8 Arsenal (Eng) 93.864.

# Second group: 9 Porto (Por) 93.739, 10 Juventus (Ita) 93.191, 11 PSV Eindhoven (Hol) 84.145, 12 Chelsea (Eng) 68.864, 13 Lyon (Fra) 81.324, 14 Olympiacos (Gre) 46.715, 15 Schalke 04 (Ger) 44.166, 16 Sparta Prague (Cze) 43.223.

# Third group: 17 Lille (Fra) 41.324, 18 Benfica (Por) 36.739, 19 Fenerbahce (Tur) 23.872, 20 Panathinaikos (Gre) 70.715*, 21 Celtic (Sco) 63.476**, 22 Villarreal (Spa) 58.326*, 23 Sporting Lisbon (Por) 55.739*, 24 Monaco (Fra) 53.324*.

# Fourth group: 25 Ajax (Hol) 52.145*, Bruges (Bel) 50.476*, 27 Anderlecht (Bel) 47.476**, 28 Rangers (Sco) 40.476*, 29 Dynamo Kiev (Ukr) 40.200**, 30 Werder Bremen (Ger) 40.166*, 31 Lokomotiv Moscow (Rus) 38.469**, 32 Rosenborg (Nor) 36.665*.

# Others: 42 Everton FC (ENG) 20.864*.

* = must play one qualifying round.

** = must play two qualifying rounds.

*** = must play three qualifying rounds.

I don't know where you got them but they are wrong, it seems to defeat the purpose of coefficients. /edit I just seen it in the Irish Times, can't believe they published that. Here is the correct group seedings taking the assumption that the top seeds go through each qualifying round.

Pot 1                          coef.     Pot 2                          coef.
------------------------ --- -------     ------------------------ --- -------
Liverpool (TH) *         Eng 115.864     FC Porto                 Por  93.740
Real Madrid              Esp 131.326     Juventus                 Ita  93.191
AC Milan                 Ita 121.191     PSV Eindhoven            Ned  84.144
FC Barcelona             Esp 117.326     Olympique Lyon           Fra  81.325
Manchester United ***    Eng 110.864     Panathinaikos ***        Gre  70.714
Internazionale ***       Ita 101.191     Chelsea                  Eng  68.864
Bayern München           Ger  97.166     Celtic **                Sco  63.477
Arsenal                  Eng  93.864     Villarreal ***           Esp  58.326

Pot 3                          coef.     Pot 4                          coef.
------------------------ --- -------     ------------------------ --- -------
Sporting CP Lisbon ***   Por  55.740     Lille OSC                Fra  41.325
AS Monaco ***            Fra  53.325     Glasgow Rangers ***      Sco  40.477
Ajax ***                 Ned  52.144     Dinamo Kiev **           Ukr  40.200
Club Brugge ***          Bel  50.477     Werder Bremen ***        Ger  40.166
Anderlecht **            Bel  47.477     Lokomotiv Moscow **      Rus  38.470
Olympiakos Piraeus       Gre  46.714     Benfica                  Por  36.740
Schalke '04              Ger  44.166     Rosenborg BK ***         Nor  36.666
Sparta Praha             Cze  43.223     Fenerbahçe               Tur  23.872

thejollyrodger

Shels have to beat the opposition in the 1st Qualifying round. I would tear my hair out if we didnt. Two wins would be brilliant but away goals would do the job.

Is Shels seeded for the 2nd Qualifying round ? http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seedcl2005.html says we are. * beside our name.

There is some difficult opposition in the second round, will we be facing a seeded team or not ? Hajduk Split Cro 10.981 have some co-efficient compared to us Shelbourne Irl 2.374 last season.

Draupnir

The only team in that list of unseeded teams that seansouth provided that should be able to beat Shels is Minsk. If they were in good form.

At the moment probably anyone could beat them.

_blank_

In that list (the one posted by thejollyrodger) Shels should have no trouble progressing past any team from Levadia Tallinn down to Kairat Almaty.

Shels won't be seeded in the second round, what happens is that you take the Co-Efficient of the team you beat in the previous round and add it to yours. So even if Shels (Co-Eff 2.374) played and beatthe highest unseeded team Rabotnicki Skopje with a Co-Efficient of 1.484 their Co-Efficient would rise to 3.858, which is a fair bit lower than the lowest seeded team in Round 2 Vålerengen IF with a Co-Efficient of 11.666.

Big Nelly

eirebhoy wrote:

I don't know where you got them but they are wrong, it seems to defeat the purpose of coefficients. /edit I just seen it in the Irish Times, can't believe they published that. Here is the correct group seedings taking the assumption that the top seeds go through each qualifying round.

Pot 1                          coef.     Pot 2                          coef.
------------------------ --- -------     ------------------------ --- -------
Liverpool (TH) *         Eng 115.864     FC Porto                 Por  93.740
Real Madrid              Esp 131.326     Juventus                 Ita  93.191
AC Milan                 Ita 121.191     PSV Eindhoven            Ned  84.144
FC Barcelona             Esp 117.326     Olympique Lyon           Fra  81.325
Manchester United ***    Eng 110.864     Panathinaikos ***        Gre  70.714
Internazionale ***       Ita 101.191     Chelsea                  Eng  68.864
Bayern München           Ger  97.166     Celtic **                Sco  63.477
Arsenal                  Eng  93.864     Villarreal ***           Esp  58.326

Pot 3                          coef.     Pot 4                          coef.
------------------------ --- -------     ------------------------ --- -------
Sporting CP Lisbon ***   Por  55.740     Lille OSC                Fra  41.325
AS Monaco ***            Fra  53.325     Glasgow Rangers ***      Sco  40.477
Ajax ***                 Ned  52.144     Dinamo Kiev **           Ukr  40.200
Club Brugge ***          Bel  50.477     Werder Bremen ***        Ger  40.166
Anderlecht **            Bel  47.477     Lokomotiv Moscow **      Rus  38.470
Olympiakos Piraeus       Gre  46.714     Benfica                  Por  36.740
Schalke '04              Ger  44.166     Rosenborg BK ***         Nor  36.666
Sparta Praha             Cze  43.223     Fenerbahçe               Tur  23.872

They are on Sportinglife and a few other websites I have seen as well so they cant be all wrong???? or maybe someone got it wrong at the start and everyone just copied.......ahhh the fun we had a school doing that......

Me: "How you know we copy?"
Teacher: "Because you and the other 2 of you got every question wrong with the same wrong answer!"

thejollyrodger

So, in the 1st round the following might be difficult for Shels ?

Rabotnicki Skopje Mac 1.484
Dinamo Minsk Bls 1.347
Sliema Wanderers Mlt 0.989
Pyunik Yerevan Arm 0.989

Well I think our co-efficient is irrelevant if we go into the 2nd round and we arent seeded. I think we need a massive increase in the Eircom league as a whole to get seeded in the second round so were going to be facing this for quite a few years to come.

AFAIK Were going to be facing some of the following if we get passed the 1st Round:-

Liverpool (TH) Eng 115.864
Celtic Sco 63.
Anderlecht Bel 47.477
Dinamo Kiev Ukr 40.
Lokomotiv Moscow Rus 38.
Partizan Belgrade Srb 30.012
Maccabi Haifa Isr 21.
Steaua Bucuresti Rom 20.101
Brøndby IF Den 19.676
Rapid Wien Aut 15.209
CSKA Sofia Bul 15.118
DVSC Debrecen Hun 14.389
Trabzonspor Tur 12.872
Vålerengen IF Nor 11.666

I think we can only beat the bottom 2 or 3 there :S

Im confused after this

_blank_

Is your confusion from the way the list is laid out?

What they have done is, is just throw the Seeded Teams from Round 1 into the next round, regardless of results (as results are unknown at this point), and then again, the seeded teams from Round 2 are thrown into Round 3 for the same reason.

eirebhoy

seansouth wrote:

what happens is that you take the Co-Efficient of the team you beat in the previous round and add it to yours. So even if Shels (Co-Eff 2.374) played and beatthe highest unseeded team Rabotnicki Skopje with a Co-Efficient of 1.484 their Co-Efficient would rise to 3.858, which is a fair bit lower than the lowest seeded team in Round 2 Vålerengen IF with a Co-Efficient of 11.666.

The winner of a tie in the qualifying round get the coeffifient of the seeded team in the tie. So whoever Shels play in QR1, if they get through to QR2 they'll keep their coefficient. If they win in QR2 they'll receive the coefficient of the team they face. If they beat any of the top 5 seeds in QR2 they'll be seeded in QR3 and that goes for all non-seeds.

_blank_

Oh right.

Sorry!

Pigman II

eirebhoy wrote:

The winner of a tie in the qualifying round get the coeffifient of the seeded team in the tie. So whoever Shels play in QR1, if they get through to QR2 they'll keep their coefficient. If they win in QR2 they'll receive the coefficient of the team they face. If they beat any of the top 5 seeds in QR2 they'll be seeded in QR3 and that goes for all non-seeds.

So potentially if Shels got to round 2, drew Liverpool and somehow beat them they would then be 4th the highest valued team in the competion? Screwy system!

Töpher

I think if Shels beat Liverpool they should be given a bye-past QR3 and go straight into the group stages!

Draupnir

Yes, that would be mental. I really hope Shels get through the first round anyway, the second round is a different story, there are some very big names in there, so I cant see them making it through that this year. Even Valerengen are full time pro's and have a couple of former internationals as far as Im aware.

So if Shels only make it to round 2 of the quali's does that still up the countrys coeff. or just the clubs?

Big Ears

Shels need to progress from the first qualifying round otherwise so much of last years work will be undone .In the second round I would give them a good chance against CSKA Sofia , DVSC Debrecen and Vålerengen IF otherwise its extremely unlikely they will progress .

Id be happy if Shels could replicate last years achievments and both sides in the Uefa Cup reach the first round .(actaully id be ecstatic , because that would show so much improvement from only 2 years back)

Töpher

If Shels get to QR2 and put in a good performance I'd be happy, but would be delighted at anything better! But we have to be realistic on these things. I'm expecting a good performance from the Carkies in the UEFA, and if Longford can get into the QR2 aswell it'd be fantastic!

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote:

So potentially if Shels got to round 2, drew Liverpool and somehow beat them they would then be 4th the highest valued team in the competion? Screwy system!

Well only for QR3, if they make the group stages they will be bottom seed most likely. One of the reasons for this is because the draw for QR3 is made before the 2nd leg of QR2. For example, if Liverpool got Shels and the draw was being made while the result wasn't known, they are going to have to be put into the seeded or unseeded side of the draw.

Draupnir wrote:

So if Shels only make it to round 2 of the quali's does that still up the countrys coeff. or just the clubs?

Both. The clubs coefficient always effects the countries. In Qualifying rounds, a win gives a team 1 point, a draw .5 points (so 2 wins over the 2 legs is 2 points). In the main competition the points are doubled so 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw. What happens then is it is divided by the amount of teams representing that country in Europe. So since Ireland has 3 teams, a win in the Qualifying round for Shels is worth 1/3 = 0.333 points. If Bohs got into the UEFA cup through the intertoto then a win is worth 0.25 points. Here is last years:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2005.html

I can't remember how club coefficients work.

Slash/ED

You only effect the countries co-efficent in the early rounds, only in the competition proper do you get a club co-efficent. For example when Shels drew with Lille, they upped the country co-efficent but also got an extra co-efficent point just for themselves, that only happened in the Lille game as that was the UEFA cup first round proper. Which means if Cork had of won the league and not Shels, they would have been the lowest seeded team in the first qualifying round. Then, when Liverpool were entered into the competition, they would have been knocked down to unseeded, because they wouldn't have a club co-efficent. Atm only Shels and Bohs do.

There's alot of negativity around Shels atm but if we turn it around before the matches take place we wont fear anyone in the draw, though there's a big difference between the top and bottom teams. If the draw goes well we should get two wins which can help the co-efficent, hopefully.

thejollyrodger

What they have done is, is just throw the Seeded Teams from Round 1 into the next round, regardless of results (as results are unknown at this point), and then again, the seeded teams from Round 2 are thrown into Round 3 for the same reason.

That makes a lot more sense now. They just put the (more likely to win) seeded teams through no matter who wins the tie and either club has the seeded team's co-efficient.

That fair because if the weaker team beats the better team then they deserve to have the higher co-efficient.

The draw is only a few hours away but I think we should do ok in the first round. We would be unlucky to get a tough team. The second round however looks a lot more difficult. I cant really see Shels getting through. The best thing would be for Shels to win both first round ties.

cruiserweight

Liverpool vs TNS in first round, but BBC put up Glentoran first anybody know what is going on?

_blank_

Draw hasn't started yet.

_blank_

Liverpool -v- TNS is the actual draw

KdjaCL

Liverpool vs Tns .....LOL the irony


kdjac

cruiserweight

seansouth wrote:

Liverpool -v- TNS is the actual draw

Initially both UEFA and BBC put up Liverpool v Glentoran on their sites! I have changed it now!

Big Ears

KdjaC wrote:

Liverpool vs Tns .....LOL the irony


kdjac

, oh lord .

Big Nelly

Thats a joke....suits Liverpool because they dont have to travel and suit TNS because they will get a big payout.,....and who says that UEFA aint as corrupt as hell!!

cruiserweight

Shels vs Glentoran interesting

yom 1

really glad for 2 reasons

1 no dodgy trip to the back arse of nowhere

2 TNS will get the big money game they were willing to give to liverpool anyway

_blank_

Glentoran -v- Shels


BRING IT ON!!!!!!!

Big Ears

First qualifying round draw
LIVERPOOL v TNS

FC Haka v Pyunik

HB Torshavn v FBK Kaunas

FC Levadia Tallinn v Dinamo Tbilisi

NK Gorica v KF Tirana

FC Kairat Almaty v FC Artmedia Bratislava

PFC Neftchi v FH Hafnarfjordur

Rabotnicki v Skonto FC

GLENTORAN v SHELBOURNE

Dinamo Minsk v Anorthosis Famagusta

Sliema Wanderers v FC Sheriff

F91 Dudelange v NK Zrinjski

thejollyrodger

More importantly than Liverpool is Shelbourne is playin Glentoran !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think we can win

KdjaCL

You lucky gits





kdjac

thejollyrodger

who are shels playing in the second round?

well shels arent playing Liverpool in the second round anyway thank god

cruiserweight

Liverpool/TNS v HB/ Kaunas

eirebhoy

HB/Kaunas v Liverpool/TNS

gimmick

thejollyrodger wrote:

who are shels playing in the second round?

^ No-one, they have to beat Glens first.

Remember the last time ye played NI opposition?

KdjaCL

thejollyrodger wrote:

who are shels playing in the second round?

well shels arent playing Liverpool in the second round anyway thank god

I hope to god that comment comes back to haunt you, have to get past the 1st round first.


Come on the Glens


kdjac