Blair tells the European Parliament the EU must be more like Britain

murphaph

Tony got a rough reception from the socialists this morning when he tore into the EU as it stands presently.

“Tell me what type of social model is it that has 20 million unemployed in Europe, productivity rates falling behind those of the US; that is allowing more science graduates to be produced by India than by Europe,” said Blair. “Of the top 20 universities in the world today, only two are now in Europe.”

What do people think? Should the rest of the EU founding fathers become more like Ireland and the UK? Discuss.

Source

Hydroquinone

murphaph wrote:

Tony got a rough reception from the socialists this morning when he tore into the EU as it stands presently.



What do people think? Should the rest of the EU founding fathers become more like Ireland and the UK? Discuss.

Source

What do you mean "ireland and the UK"?
Ireland is 100% European. No question.
Let's see
UK has socialised medicine. Ireland and Europe don't
UK isn't in the Euro. Ireland and most of the Europe are
UK has non-metric roadsigns. Ireland and Europe have
We get practically the highest per capita investment from the EU. THe UK is one of the biggest financial contributors to the EU.

Ireland is one of the most blinking European countries in the EU.

Meh

Hydroquinone wrote:

UK has socialised medicine. Ireland and Europe don't

Uh, most of the countries in the EU have socialised medicine. In fact, healthcare in Ireland is a lot less socialised than it is in the UK (and of course Europe). The UK has free GP visits and (almost) free prescriptions.

The UK is one of the biggest financial contributors to the EU.

It's actually one of the lower per-capita contributors to the EU (because of the rebate). Anyway, wouldn't that make the UK more European than we are?

murphaph

Sorry,
When I compared Ireland with the UK I was comparing labour laws and conditions of employment.

We're more like the UK economically than any other EU state IMO.

The UK is more social than us, but the continentals are more social again.

Anyway, the main topic is should the EU be less social and more 'american' to compete with China/India/The US? Now discuss.

sceptre

murphaph wrote:

Now discuss.

Drop your own view in as an aid to the discussion if you don't mind. As the thread-starter it's required.

the_syco

“Tell me what type of social model is it that has 20 million unemployed in Europe, productivity rates falling behind those of the US; that is allowing more science graduates to be produced by India than by Europe,” said Blair. “Of the top 20 universities in the world today, only two are now in Europe.”

How many of the 20 mil is from ex-commi Germany?

WTF does "allowing more science graduates to be produced by India" mean? That there is not enough interest in science is somehow India's fault?

Also, is an absentee ruler modern?

Bri

murphaph wrote:

Anyway, the main topic is should the EU be less social and more 'american' to compete with China/India/The US? Now discuss.

basically...
should the the EU be driven by France's leftist leaning trade unions, disgruntled voters who have had enough of privatisation by stealth and unloved politicians; leaving the EU wallowing in a pool of uncompetitive aging economies...or should we just learn to smell the coffee and accept that things like CAP are fundamentally wrong (and evil) and stop trying to resist the effects of globalisation, get competitive again, and generally warm to the idea that such reforms are not ultra-liberal and will not make us all American. :rolleyes:

I guess it's all a matter of what you believe in.

murphaph

sceptre wrote:

Drop your own view in as an aid to the discussion if you don't mind. As the thread-starter it's required.

Sorry Sceptre, my bad.

I'm with Tony on this. I think if we continue along the lines of the last 30 years we will all regret it. Europe's population is only growing through inward migration. The rest of the world will overtake us in no-time and we can't just sit back and do diddly about it. For example-in germany you can continually fail in your college studies and they don't turf you out or make you pay for repeated years. This sound slike a silly example but it's symptomatic of the overly socialist model that some in Europe have deluded themselves into thinking will work. It won't because there's not enough incentive for people to get off their arse and do something for themselves. Similarly with german social welfare (dole) payments-68% of your last pay cheque for year 1 of unemployment with no means test, so a guy who was earning €1m gets €680k-no questions. It's too much for us to compete with China/India/The States. Do I like it? Hell no, but it's a harsh reality methinks.

murphaph

the_syco wrote:

How many of the 20 mil is from ex-commi Germany?

About 2 Million I say. East Germany has a population of roughly 11m. Unemployment runs at up to 20% in many parts.

Villain

I've only picked up on some of this story but the way I see it if Blair gets his way our economy could suffer, he doesn't want the EU to continue to pump so much money into the Argi sector which is obviously very important to us.

Bri

Well...

The Centre for the New Europe argue that the CAP indirectly kills 6,600 people in developing countries every day. See, www.cne.org/pub_pdf/2003_09_04_EU_barriers_kill.pdf
Apart from this horrible effect, we as consumers, lose out also...by footing the bill to farmers and then being rewarded with more expensive food produce.

I'm not saying the short run it will all be roses but Blair definatley has his feet closer to the ground than Agri Member States do.

Meh

irish1 wrote:

I've only picked up on some of this story but the way I see it if Blair gets his way our economy could suffer, he doesn't want the EU to continue to pump so much money into the Argi sector which is obviously very important to us.

I think you are overestimating the importance of agriculture, it only accounts for 5% of our GDP (source) and getting smaller all the time.

Villain

Meh wrote:

I think you are overestimating the importance of agriculture, it only accounts for 5% of our GDP (source) and getting smaller all the time.

Well 5% of our workforce are also employed in the Agri sector and it's an important part of culture, although your correct it is getting smaller all the time.

Bri

It never ceases to amaze me just how much agri gets special treatment over others. I think I'm right in saying that after BSE farmers got compinsation, but I never heard of other associated industries getting a penny. I'd love to be wrong on that.

That said, the EU isn't even the biggest subsidiser of farmers in the world.

Interesting article here: http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4100673 (yes that is the economist I know )

Villain

Well we all have to eat and I'd rather eat Irish meat than indian, I know the farmers get a lot of assitance but it's not an easy life, well not for the small farmers, which are getting few and far between now.

MT

I too agree with Blair on this issue. The continental model of high taxation, all pervasive welfarism, powerful unions and crippling workplace regulation has left most European economies uncompetitive and stagnant.

But to see the damaging effects of an excessively large state we can look much closer to home than the continent. To the north lies a country where the state’s contribution to the economy has almost reached 70% of GDP. The result is that almost everyone works at least indirectly for the government. Whether its employment in the public sector where the sack is unheard of or a completely inefficient private firm propped up by ‘no questions asked’ grants and subsidised contracts, the concept of productivity and enterprise has long since evaporated.

Just look at the stats. The ‘People’s Republic of NI’ with state funding of the economy running at 70% lags far behind the dynamic Irish Republic in terms of small business start-ups, economic growth, productivity levels, foreign investment and so on. Then there’s the other conspicuous indicator of a healthy society that cradle to grave welfarism has helped to collapse – the birth rate. Despite all the lefts theories regarding free health care in the NHS and generous benefits it’s Northern Ireland and not the ‘devil take the hindmost’ Celtic Tiger to the south that has the island’s lowest birth rate.

Unemployed, childless, no upward social mobility… welcome to Europe, your dole checks in the post.

Bri

Bri wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me just how much agri gets special treatment over others. I think I'm right in saying that after BSE farmers got compinsation, but I never heard of other associated industries getting a penny. I'd love to be wrong on that.

Yes they got compensation but , their entire herds were slaughtered and ergo their income even if only one of that herd had BSE and its not a communicable bovine disease.
That slaughter would be government enforced.It would be a bit like if one of your work colleagues could not do his/her job such that it was detrimental to the firm so they sacked the whole lot of ye as well as your colleague and closed down the business(which doesnt happen)

By the way theres roughly 120,000 full and part time farmers in Ireland( source ) and dropping... many of whom are in a business whose only profit amounts to what they get in subsidies.
They are gradually more and more finding themselves coming into the workforce outside of agriculture which in todays economy shouldnt be a problem tbh.
The other implication of that would probably be that you will be eating more brasilian beef in your restaurants with no record of where or how its produced apart from maybe its country of origin.
Anything produced in Ireland can be traced back to the farm it was produced on, which is a good thing in my opinion.

MT

Irish1 wrote:

Well we all have to eat and I'd rather eat Irish meat than indian, I know the farmers get a lot of assitance but it's not an easy life, well not for the small farmers, which are getting few and far between now.

But what about the large farms? Do you think it’s acceptable that large profitable agricultural businesses should recieve subsidies on top of what they already make?

One thing that has garnered so much support for the CAP in Ireland is that this country has been a net recipient of EU funds. If Ireland continues to outgrow other European economies and the agriculture sector continues to decline relative to the rest of the economy then in time Ireland will become a substantial contributor to the EU. I don't think it needs a rocket scientist to realise that such a scenario would alter profoundly the nature of our attitude to the European project. Once we end up paying, the CAP could begin to take on a whole new and expensive light.

murphaph

The UK economy has managed to do what other's haven't. It's former large industrial base has been replaced almost completely by s service based economy with a lot of emphasis on R&D. We in Ireland need to look to this model and spend proper sums of money in University Incubators and the like, reducing our dependency on FDI.

The UK economy is probably the strongest in Europe. Ireland's is on paper but it's still heavily dependent on FDI and this worries me. I'd feel more secure in my research job in the UK than my manufacturing job in Ireland.

Boggle

The UK economy is probably the strongest in Europe. Ireland's is on paper but it's still heavily dependent on FDI and this worries me. I'd feel more secure in my research job in the UK than my manufacturing job in Ireland.

Hit the nail on the head there... As I've said before in other threads, this govt's main failure during the boom years has been the lack of progress in developing home grown companies. I know from direct experience that the roadblocks facing the creation of a manuf business in this country are tremendous and the sham groups like Enterprise Ireland are more of a hindrance than a help.

MT

MT wrote:

Once we end up paying, the CAP could begin to take on a whole new and expensive light.

Well if the European project continues along the Blair route, there might not even be a CAP or at most an insignificantly costing one.
In that scenario even if Ireland are net payers, it wouldnt be the cap that they would be argue-ing against.

Sand

The CAP is a relic from the cold war era of economic planners. It makes no sense whatsoever for it to be such a factor in the budget in a modern economy when agriculture contributes so little to the economy.

It only makes any sense from a strategic point of view - if the third world war was going to break out wed probably need to secure food...where exactly is this war going to come from when practically every major economy is dependant on international trade, or eager to develop their links with international trade?

And last but not least, removal of the CAP wont end farming in Europe - it will end the small, inefficient farmers who cant make a profit from their business; and thats what farming is, or should be - a business. Most likely farms will be consolidated until economies of scale are reached or the land diversified into more profitable use. Almost every small farmer is only a part time farmer, and they stay in it only for the subsidies - without the subsidies theyll get the push they need to get out and divert their time to other things that actually contribute to the economy.

Either way, most farmers are sitting on a fair bit of capital in an economy at practically full employment, where it isnt too hard to get a job- I dont think theyll go too hungry.