[Article] Quarter of NI Catholics back British status

MrPudding

79cortinaz wrote:

why would they? the south is over priced and run by crooks.

Does you sister know this?

79cortinaz wrote:

wow - I must tell my sister that then. shes moving down here as she'll actually be better off. I must tell her to stay where she is as obviously you get better value for money in the north. Its funny she hasnt found that to be true.

MrP

ISAW

ISAW wrote:

A couple of comments related to geopolitical entities. Go back 1000 to 1500 years. Ireland was esentially forest. Travelling to the midlands took maybe a week. Crossing the country was mainly done by sea. so the connections were mainly sea routes. Hence links with Wales Scotland France Spain North Africa. Cultures like the Dal Cassians(is it splet right?)

the dal ghais were Brian Boru's crowd i think. I meant the Dal Riada.

79cortinaz

MrPudding wrote:

Does you sister know this?



MrP

well, she just looks at the higher standard of living and better pay. shes a bit of a capitalist at heart.

MT

Bobby Storey wrote:

You mean of course the banana republic presided over by Bertie, don't you now? I mean brown envelopes stuffed with cash, corruption and the Donegal/Dublin rent a cop scheme, are perfect examples of successful government are they not? I mean how come the Celtic Tiger never got out of Dublin or the Southeast?

If you find the Irish Republic so objectionable, why unearth do you seek a united Ireland? Let me guess, could it be because as a Republican your political beliefs are less like those of others and more in line with the near religious certainties typical of revolutionary politics? Might I be somewhere near the mark if I suggested that like other Republican’s your vision of a 32 county Republic isn’t contaminated with the messy pragmatism of everyday politics – that it is more of a utopian ideal?

Protestants and Catholics will live in harmony, Gerry Kelly and Ian Paisley will become best mates, Unionists will come to love the place…

That’s one of my many problems with Republicanism in Ireland. It’s less a political outlook and more like the doctrine of a fundamentalist religion. And like such religions the quest is not for the compromise of reality in this earthly mess but for a utopian paradise. That’s one of the reasons why I see such things as Christian fundamentalism in the US and Republicanism in Ireland as so potentially destabilising to the democratic system. Democracy requires some measure of compromise and pragmatism but these two religions will brook none. I suppose, in a morbid sense, evangelicals have to die before their beliefs are crushed. But want of Republicans when they don’t achieve their 32 county El Dorado?

CaptainPeacock

ISAW wrote:

If you can show which one was skewed then please do so.

All polls are in some way skewed because they do not account for every member of the population. They are not 100% representative, do you understand?

ISAW wrote:

What MRBI poll? where is it?

Unfortunately MRBI/The Irish Times don't archive their polls on the web and ireland.com is coming up with nothing. I'd like to be able to find the paper I saw it in. It was a large report in the Irish Times and if you didn't see it or hear about it then I suspect you're not the well informed authority you're trying to be here. I'd advise you to leave off all this message board stuff and read a newspaper for a change. The Irish Times is a good place to start. It's only 1.50.

bonkey

CaptainPeacock wrote:

All polls are in some way skewed because they do not account for every member of the population.

Incorrect. All polls are in some way inaccurate for this reason. However, all polls also carry a statistically-calculated margin of error to cater for this. This margin of error is generally valid equally in both directions.

A poll being skewed, on the other hand, would suggest that unaccounted-for factors cause a shift in one specific direction. This is not the same thing.


jc

CaptainPeacock

bonkey wrote:

Incorrect. All polls are in some way inaccurate for this reason. However, all polls also carry a statistically-calculated margin of error to cater for this. This margin of error is generally valid equally in both directions.

A poll being skewed, on the other hand, would suggest that unaccounted-for factors cause a shift in one specific direction. This is not the same thing.


jc

You're making a lot of assumptions about the poll, there. Then again, this is the web, so we can expect this kind of "I know better and I'm going to explain it using my psuedo-science to make my virtual self feel superior" conjecture.

I know you're out there, picking over every word of this post, trying to find a hole in it, so you can ignore the general idea of it and instead concentrate on your interpretation of its "flaws."

murphaph

CaptainPeacock wrote:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the poll, there. Then again, this is the web, so we can expect this kind of "I know better and I'm going to explain it using my psuedo-science to make my virtual self feel superior" conjecture.

I know you're out there, picking over every word of this post, trying to find a hole in it, so you can ignore the general idea of it and instead concentrate on your interpretation of its "flaws."

What a lame-ass 'comeback'. If you can't counter his post then just say so.

CaptainPeacock

murphaph wrote:

What a lame-ass 'comeback'. If you can't counter his post then just say so.

It's not that important to me. I don't post on message boards for the sake of arguing and comebacks. If I did I'd spend all my time arguing semantics with children like you who use American phrases like "lame-ass."

murphaph

CaptainPeacock wrote:

It's not that important to me. I don't post on message boards for the sake of arguing and comebacks. If I did I'd spend all my time arguing semantics with children like you who use American phrases like "lame-ass."

What a lame-ass 'comeback'. If you can't counter my post then just say so.

sceptre

CaptainPeacock wrote:

If I did I'd spend all my time arguing semantics with children like you who use American phrases like "lame-ass."

Week's ban for that as per the rules. It may not be all that important to you of course but the ban stands.

rsynnott

MT wrote:

Might I be somewhere near the mark if I suggested that like other Republican’s your vision of a 32 county Republic isn’t contaminated with the messy pragmatism of everyday politics – that it is more of a utopian ideal?

Of course that's their vision. Have you ever read SF's manifesto on social policy? Completely detached from the real world, and quite contradictory.

Stabshauptmann

ISAW wrote:

more than two standard deviations? High enough to be significant at the five percent level and at the 3 percent and even one percent?

Put it this way go and look at the N ireland census figures and compare the religious affiliations to the map here:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/

Indeed skip the actual data and compare it with this map:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map12.htm



thats why I put in the question mark. It seems I did not support that enough. So, I withdraw the counter claim in relation to under eighteens. are you going to withdraw anything you didnt support?


No it isn't! you haven't shown a single flaw inthe survey. It is done every two years. I have posted the references to it. Go and look at it and if and when you find a flaw come back and post it here. Otherwise do not claim that it must be wrong when you can not support your claim.

rsynnott , your post on page one (havent read page two) are some of the best posts Ive read in this forum.

Just curious, would that not be less than 2 standard deviations. Now tbh, I barely passed stats

79cortinaz

I would assume the transition period to a united ireland would be decades, and include a complete restructuing of governments on the island. If that was the case then your 'If you find the Irish Republic so objectionable, why unearth do you seek a united Ireland?' statement wouldnt be very relevant.

It amazes me how many people when discussing Irish unity seem to believe a united ireland would be run with the same kind of Government that currently exists in the republic, rather than taking the opportunity of revisiting how politics work in ireland and making them work better in a more presentative and equal way.

MT wrote:

If you find the Irish Republic so objectionable, why unearth do you seek a united Ireland? Let me guess, could it be because as a Republican your political beliefs are less like those of others and more in line with the near religious certainties typical of revolutionary politics? Might I be somewhere near the mark if I suggested that like other Republican’s your vision of a 32 county Republic isn’t contaminated with the messy pragmatism of everyday politics – that it is more of a utopian ideal?

Protestants and Catholics will live in harmony, Gerry Kelly and Ian Paisley will become best mates, Unionists will come to love the place…

That’s one of my many problems with Republicanism in Ireland. It’s less a political outlook and more like the doctrine of a fundamentalist religion. And like such religions the quest is not for the compromise of reality in this earthly mess but for a utopian paradise. That’s one of the reasons why I see such things as Christian fundamentalism in the US and Republicanism in Ireland as so potentially destabilising to the democratic system. Democracy requires some measure of compromise and pragmatism but these two religions will brook none. I suppose, in a morbid sense, evangelicals have to die before their beliefs are crushed. But want of Republicans when they don’t achieve their 32 county El Dorado?

79cortinaz

rsynnott wrote:

Of course that's their vision. Have you ever read SF's manifesto on social policy? Completely detached from the real world, and quite contradictory.

Have you ever read it? How is it detached from the real world?

79cortinaz

in fact SF dont have a single social policy, rather various policys on housing and other social aspects, so please post the social poilcy you mentioned

http://sinnfein.ie/policies/social_inclusion has some info but I still dont see how its not based on reality

Sinn Féin advocates the right to social, economic, gender and cultural equality. This encompasses equality for all, irrespective of race, age, marital or family status, sexual orientation, physical or mental capacities, ethnicity, social origin, political or religious affiliations, or membership of the Travelling Community.

Creating the conditions for establishing an equal society means recognising that many diverse groups and sections of Irish society need enhanced protection from the State. We must tackle the trend to blame a person or group for their exclusion from society.

It is the same mentality that leads to the isolation of people who are old, handicapped and disabled. We need to recognise that Ireland and Irish society is the sum of its parts and there is no rationale for excluding any group.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

I would assume the transition period to a united ireland would be decades, and include a complete restructuing of governments on the island.

I take exception to your presumption that we should restructure the type of government of my country, which although not perfect (is any government?), at least functions on a day to day basis, unlike Northern Ireland where you can't even govern a small place between yourselves and have to rely on the British Government through the NIO to do it for you!

79cortinaz wrote:

It amazes me how many people when discussing Irish unity seem to believe a united ireland would be run with the same kind of Government that currently exists in the republic, rather than taking the opportunity of revisiting how politics work in ireland and making them work better in a more presentative and equal way.

See above! We use PR, which if anything is too representative of the electorate's wishes! You've got a lot of buzz words like 'inclusion' etc. but little substance to your posts. We're finally managing to drop the civil war and UI b0ll0cks politics in Ireland and start worrying about public transport and infrastructure, schools, healthcare and so on-real issues, not pipe dreams like a UI!

I suggest folks up north start doing the same and cut the stupid flag waving and moaning about 'the other side'.

79cortinaz

i take even greater exception to your point blank refusal to accept a political border is not a geographical one.

I also suggest you apologise to the people of the North for your ill researched statements about them (as in " I suggest folks up north start doing the same and cut the stupid flag waving and moaning about 'the other side'." ) which do nothing but show how little you understand about the place or its people.

79cortinaz

also (and you'll find this in numerous historical books on the north) the 6 county 'statelet' was designed so that it COULDNT function on its own without an outside government. any idea of a united ireland without a restructured government just wouldnt work - and if it were to be the case that the givernment were to stay the same Im sure many less people in the north would like the idea of a united ireland.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

i take even greater exception to your point blank refusal to accept a political border is not a geographical one.

I never said that, but what precisely is a geographical border, now that you've raised it?

The land border between Ireland and the UK is accepted by the UN and I have no problems with it either.

79cortinaz wrote:

I also suggest you apologise to the people of the North for your ill researched statements about them (as in " I suggest folks up north start doing the same and cut the stupid flag waving and moaning about 'the other side'." ) which do nothing but show how little you understand about the place or its people.

It's always got to be a highly complex solution to the 'problems' of NI doesn't it? Can't a simple solution like waking up and realising that there's a whole other world outside of the tribal politics of Northern Ireland out there do it? No, thought not because that doesn't involve blaming the other side as usual. We had 80 years of blaming the brits for all the ills of our society down here, we're just getting over it now and realising that most of it was our own fault and it's time to grow up as a nation. You sound like SF/IRA (in your representation of 'The People of the North'). They used to claim bombings of innocents in London were in the name of 'Ireland'. MT is from the north, as is MrP, they clearly feel quite differently to you as I am reiterating pretty much their sentiments on these matters.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

also (and you'll find this in numerous historical books on the north) the 6 county 'statelet' was designed so that it COULDNT function on its own without an outside government.

In answer to this old chestnut-you can't design a country to fail, only the citizens there can do that for themselves (and they're making a good job of it in NI). Plenty of far smaller, independent , entities than northern Ireland exist in a perfectly stable fashion elsewhere around the world. Malta springs to mind with a population of 1/5 that of Northern Ireland and no native industries other than tourism!

79cortinaz wrote:

any idea of a united ireland without a restructured government just wouldnt work - and if it were to be the case that the givernment were to stay the same Im sure many less people in the north would like the idea of a united ireland.

Sure just leave things the way they are and everybody's happy so. In any case, what does 'restructuring' mean in this context exactly?

79cortinaz

if we were having this conversation in a pub, I would have moved far away from your table by now.

In answer to this old chestnut-you can't design a country to fail, only the citizens there can do that for themselves (and they're making a good job of it in NI). Plenty of far smaller, independent , entities than northern Ireland exist in a perfectly stable fashion elsewhere around the world. Malta springs to mind with a population of 1/5 that of Northern Ireland and no native industries other than tourism!

look, youve made it clear you hate northerners. The twaddle you posted in the above quote really is nothing but unconcerned 'Im all right jack' waffle.

Sure just leave things the way they are and everybody's happy so. In any case, what does 'restructuring' mean in this context exactly?

lets get this straight - YOU would be happy. Thats the only person you seem to be concerned about going by that post. What do you think restructuring means? Over a period of decades the government would be restructured to make better use of the full potential of Ireland norht and south

I never said that, but what precisely is a geographical border, now that you've raised it?

I am tiring of you saying one thing (like the north is not part of Ireland, but in the UK) then telling me you dont say such things. A political border is one that is making a separation that is not geographical. A geographical border is one where a border seperate two different countries. Ireland and Northern ireland arent different countries.

It's always got to be a highly complex solution to the 'problems' of NI doesn't it? Can't a simple solution like waking up and realising that there's a whole other world outside of the tribal politics of Northern Ireland out there do it? No, thought not because that doesn't involve blaming the other side as usual. We had 80 years of blaming the brits for all the ills of our society down here, we're just getting over it now and realising that most of it was our own fault and it's time to grow up as a nation. You sound like SF/IRA (in your representation of 'The People of the North'). They used to claim bombings of innocents in London were in the name of 'Ireland'. MT is from the north, as is MrP, they clearly feel quite differently to you as I am reiterating pretty much their sentiments on these matters.

yes it is a bloody complex question, one which you obviously are way out of your depth trying to discuss by the looks of it. Let me debate with MT and MrP then as at least they might have a notion of what they're talking about.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

look, youve made it clear you hate northerners. The twaddle you posted in the above quote really is nothing but unconcerned 'Im all right jack' waffle.

I never said that at all. In fact, any time I'm visiting NI I get a warm welcome from anyone I meet. I have no clue what religion or tribe they hail from, if any. I take folks at face value up there and it's always been reciprocated. In fact I find northerners to be friendlier in many instances than folks from the south.

79cortinaz wrote:

What do you think restructuring means? Over a period of decades the government would be restructured to make better use of the full potential of Ireland norht and south

Eh, but how? You can't just spin buzzwords off without something solid behind your point. What exactly do you mean by restructuring and making better use?

79cortinaz wrote:

I am tiring of you saying one thing (like the north is not part of Ireland, but in the UK) then telling me you dont say such things.

I've never stated anything other than Ireland is one country and the United Kingdom is another, of which Northern Ireland is a part.

79cortinaz wrote:

A political border is one that is making a separation that is not geographical.

Sure-Like the border between the United States and Canada (hundreds upon hundreds of miles of flat land).

79cortinaz wrote:

A geographical border is one where a border seperate two different countries.

But what does that mean? (It's not even a proper sentence, nevermind descriptive of anything).

79cortinaz wrote:

Ireland and Northern ireland arent different countries.

Ireland is one country and Northern Ireland is a province of another country, that being the United Kingdom.

79cortinaz wrote:

yes it is a bloody complex question, one which you obviously are way out of your depth trying to discuss by the looks of it. Let me debate with MT and MrP then as at least they might have a notion of what they're talking about.

MT and MrP will tell you all the above is true if you don't believe me.

79cortinaz

whatever keeps you happy. I have tired of this aimless banter. Maybe talking authoritively about things you dont understand makes you feel good or something. but Im afraid I cant bear anymore of the waffle, thanks.

"MT and MrP will tell you all the above is true if you don't believe me." - I have my own experience of the north, I dont believe people who havent had the same experinces can tell me mine arent true.

visiting the north is completely different than living there. as I said earlier, you are out of your depth in these dicussions.

Macmorris

murphaph wrote:

Ireland is one country and Northern Ireland is a province of another country, that being the United Kingdom.

I still have a hard time understanding that. Do you not find it confusing talking about 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland'. For example, when someone mentions 'Northern Ireland', how do you know that they're not referring to the Cavan/Monaghan region? And when you say that 'Northern Ireland' is not part of 'Ireland', are you not afraid that Monaghan people will be offended by that?

You seem to have an emotional, nationalistic attachment to the name 'Ireland', that you can't except that the state you live in is just one part of Ireland, and is therefore not entitled to claim exlusive ownership of the name. It's one of the consequences of partition. We're just going to have to live with the fact that we have to share the name.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

whatever keeps you happy. I have tired of this aimless banter. Maybe talking authoritively about things you dont understand makes you feel good or something. but Im afraid I cant bear anymore of the waffle, thanks.

Apparently an objective view from outside your tribe is wasted. If you were hoping to come on boards and find a bunch of nodding dogs to agree with your POV you were mistaken. We don't do things like that on here. As for waffle, you make a vague statement, then when asked to expand on it you ignore the request and carry on the diatribe. Now that's waffle.

79cortinaz wrote:

I have my own experience of the north, I dont believe people who havent had the same experinces can tell me mine arent true.

Not one single person has told you that your own personal experiences did not occur. Not one!

79cortinaz wrote:

visiting the north is completely different than living there. as I said earlier, you are out of your depth in these dicussions.

I didn't realise it was compulsory to have lived somewhere to be in a position to discuss it. If that's the case then we'd have a pretty quiet, inward looking boards, there's that phrase again "inward looking". Sound familiar? or perhaps you've contributed to topics here on boards beyond Northern Ireland and it's woes?

If you want to run away from debate just say so.

murphaph

Macmorris wrote:

I still have a hard time understanding that. Do you not find it confusing talking about 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland'. For example, when someone mentions 'Northern Ireland', how do you know that they're not referring to the Cavan/Monaghan region? And when you say that 'Northern Ireland' is not part of 'Ireland', are you not afraid that Monaghan people will be offended by that?

It doesn't confuse me at all. It's the same as Meath and West Meath. Ireland is just the name of the country. If differentiation is required in the context it can be made clear by expressions such as 'The Irish Republic'. It's really not that important to me.

Macmorris wrote:

You seem to have an emotional, nationalistic attachment to the name 'Ireland', that you can't except that the state you live in is just one part of Ireland, and is therefore not entitled to claim exlusive ownership of the name. It's one of the consequences of partition. We're just going to have to live with the fact that we have to share the name.

Macmorris-you're reading way to much into all of this. Ireland is the official and correct name of my country. If that's changed to something else then I'll use that. It's really that simple. You seem to be the one with the name hang-up.

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

Apparently an objective view from outside your tribe is wasted. If you were hoping to come on boards and find a bunch of nodding dogs to agree with your POV you were mistaken. We don't do things like that on here. As for waffle, you make a vague statement, then when asked to expand on it you ignore the request and carry on the diatribe. Now that's waffle.

you really have lost me here. obviously though its something important coming from a web guru like you to a newbie like me (hint - theres many many many web communities. boards.ie is just one of those I visit).

I dont know what your vague statement thing is you got going there either. I already explain what a geographical border and a political border, but you didnt seem to understand me. I dont get paid to teach so you'll have to work on that one yourself Im afraid. Did I miss any other points you wanted more info on?

Not one single person has told you that your own personal experiences did not occur. Not one!

no, but when said experiences were mentioned, including those things you wont really find ready facts for, you disbelieved me, then told me that my overall view was wrong, and I could ask two other posters as they would back you up. Ergo you didnt SAY those things didnt occur, but you make it clear you dont believe what i say, so draw your own conclusions from that.

I didn't realise it was compulsory to have lived somewhere to be in a position to discuss it. If that's the case then we'd have a pretty quiet, inward looking boards, there's that phrase again "inward looking". Sound familiar?

Its not compulsory, but at least brief yourself on the subject at hand before telling me that the north isnt in ireland and the trouble northerners face is really all their own fault, since you did state that there was no need for unrest anymore.

or perhaps you've contributed to topics here on boards beyond Northern Ireland and it's woes?

If you bothered to search my username you'd see that I have, long before this thread appeared.

If you want to run away from debate just say so.

yeah before i get bored to death

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

you really have lost me here. obviously though its something important coming from a web guru like you to a newbie like me (hint - theres many many many web communities. boards.ie is just one of those I visit).

The above tangent has nothing to do with this debate.

79cortinaz wrote:

I dont know what your vague statement thing is you got going there either.

This vague statement is what I'm refering to...

Over a period of decades the government would be restructured to make better use of the full potential of Ireland norht and south

...and when asked to clarify you completely ignore it and carry on. I'll give you another chance to expand on this vague concept if you would please.

79cortinaz wrote:

I already explain what a geographical border and a political border, but you didnt seem to understand me.

Ah yes, you said...

A geographical border is one where a border seperate two different countries.

...which is exactly what a political borrder is. You haven't explained what a geographical border is.

79cortinaz wrote:

I dont get paid to teach so you'll have to work on that one yourself Im afraid. Did I miss any other points you wanted more info on?

The above two points would be good for a start.

79cortinaz wrote:

no, but when said experiences were mentioned, including those things you wont really find ready facts for, you disbelieved me,

Example please? because at no point did I say that something you said that happened to you personally did not actually happen.

79cortinaz wrote:

then told me that my overall view was wrong,

This is the heart of debate, we hold different views and argue factual points with each other to prove our belief. You also to me I was wrong, but I'm not crying about it, I accept that you don't accept my point of view on something and move on.

79cortinaz wrote:

and I could ask two other posters as they would back you up.

I told you that two other posters would agree with me on simple facts like Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom at prestent etc. No sentiment or point of view, just fact.

79cortinaz wrote:

Ergo you didnt SAY those things didnt occur, but you make it clear you dont believe what i say, so draw your own conclusions from that.

what things? I've already said that I accept whatever has happened to you personally is not an issue for debate.

79cortinaz wrote:

Its not compulsory, but at least brief yourself on the subject at hand before telling me that the north isnt in ireland and the trouble northerners face is really all their own fault, since you did state that there was no need for unrest anymore.

Hmm, so you think there is still a need for civil disorder and throwing bricks at each other like cavemen? because there isn't, it's the law of the savage and has no place in Northern Ireland anymore. Glasgow has a sectarian divide, yet civil disorder is a rarity, certainly on the scale of events in Belfast.

79cortinaz wrote:

If you bothered to search my username you'd see that I have, long before this thread appeared.

I decided to let you answer for yourself. The point I was making was that you feel free to comment on issues outside Northern Ireland yet tell me that I shouldn't discuss Northern Ireland because I don't live there.

79cortinaz wrote:

yeah before i get bored to death

Well, you know where the back door is anytime you wanna throw in the towel, otherwise stick to points and facts and not bluster and diversionary tangents, thanks.