United States of Europe???

4Xcut

With the planned further expansion of the Europen Union are we not being a bit remiss by not considering the cultural implications of possible single government for Europe.

Granted it works in the USA but one must remember that there was not the tolerence for ethnic/cultural diversity when the nation was founded. When focus returns to europe we note the vast number of different cultures.

This is not to suggest that we should not experience other cultures but if they are all intergrated into a big "mish mash" we will simply loose all sense of identity of any nation. Whn one considers the economic intergration we have already witnessed an takes into account the "acceleration of history" it is clear that the constitution is a stepping stone towards this super-state

mike65

I would'nt worry, with every new member the chance of a Federated EU becomes smaller and smaller.

Mike.

m1ke

The constitution wasn't proposing anything even slightly resembling a USE

There is absolutely no chance of a USE ever - even in the distant future

The question is still worth examing just for purely theoretical reasons. However, to confuse it with what is really possible is imagination and fantasy gone wild.

bonkey

4Xcut wrote:

With the planned further expansion of the Europen Union are we not being a bit remiss by not considering the cultural implications of possible single government for Europe.

Seeing as you obviously feel we are remiss, why don't you outline exactly what the cultural implications are that you have considered and that prompted you to start this thread?

but if they are all intergrated into a big "mish mash" we will simply loose all sense of identity of any nation.

Any nation? Or any culture? I thought it was cultural issues you were talking about, not nationalistic ones? They're not the same - not unless we decide that at present, every nation has one and only one culture, and that cultures are unique to each nation.

And incidentally - exactly what are you basing this conclusion on? Is there evidence of some super-congolmerate which has occurred which has done what you're describing?

Whn one considers the economic intergration we have already witnessed an takes into account the "acceleration of history" it is clear that the constitution is a stepping stone towards this super-state

No, its not clear at all.

Its about as clear as me saying "Ireland joined the EEC, which makes it clear we wanted to become part of a post-EEC, post-EC, post-EU superstate.....which would suggest that we're clearly too late to be considering these issues, because we made the decision over 30 years ago and presumably considered them.

Of course, if my logic isn't solid and clear here...as I'd myself argue it isn't...then one has to ask why yours is any moreso.

jc

4Xcut

Cultural implications: If you take it that the constitution is a stepping stone towards further unity then we could presume that with cheaper air travel and transport being more accesable that there would be a lot more movement of people throughout europe. The benifit would be that the continent would be a bustling market place of ideas, creativity and culture from many different societies. Consider the fact that some countries re much larger than others and have a much larger population. Then would it be too obsurd to argue that a country such as germany would have greater power of cultural influence than a small country such as ireland. I'm not saying that we are going to wake up next year on day and be speaking german. All i'm meerly saying is that we must retain our identity. Go to paris and walk the streets. You cannot help but noticing a modern city, however unlike Ireland it hasn't sarcaficed any of its culture. The french do not pull a building down if it is old, they restore and maintain it. While walking throgh paris you would know you were in paris. In ireland the only thing that lets you know it is ireland is the litter on the streets. We must preserve our sense of identity. This is something that can be one without blind nationalism.

But this raises an important question. Is there anything wrong with sensible nationalism. I am proud to be from Ireland. I am proud of our culture and our achievements as a nation. I am not advocation blind following o a flag or some other symbol but an educated appreciation of irish culture. For example in the junior cert i remember that there are two sections in drama "shakesperian" and "other". the "other" is usually a play by an irish author. Should the message being sent to the youth of Ireland really be to consider irish playwrites' work as "other".

netwhizkid

Originally posted by 4Xcut
With the planned further expansion of the Europen Union are we not being a bit remiss by not considering the cultural implications of possible single government for Europe.

Granted it works in the USA but one must remember that there was not the tolerence for ethnic/cultural diversity when the nation was founded. When focus returns to europe we note the vast number of different cultures.

This is not to suggest that we should not experience other cultures but if they are all intergrated into a big "mish mash" we will simply loose all sense of identity of any nation. Whn one considers the economic intergration we have already witnessed an takes into account the "acceleration of history" it is clear that the constitution is a stepping stone towards this super-state

it works in the USA ? The USA is no more a advert for democaracy than a russian goulag. Two Parties, the same thing with different names, politics bought by big global Corporations, This is exactly we need to avoid. If anyone here watches the Simpsons and saw the Halloween special Where the Aliens Kodus and Klang took over the US presidential race. That it what american politics is like. You yeah and we'll just invade any old country we like and kill innocent people while stealing there oil. cummon people America is a dictatorship under Bush. Do we want Europe to become the 4th Reich under Shroder and dopey Chirac ? I would suggest Ireland pull out of the EU now, we got our money and lets pull out now before its too late. Just look at the Norwegian Scenario a rich country in charge of it affairs including it oil and gas and its abbundant fisheries.

I rest my case.

Regards netwhizkid

4Xcut

netwhizkid wrote:

it works in the USA ? The USA is no more a advert for democaracy than a russian goulag. Two Parties, the same thing with different names, politics bought by big global Corporations, This is exactly we need to avoid. If anyone here watches the Simpsons and saw the Halloween special Where the Aliens Kodus and Klang took over the US presidential race. That it what american politics is like. You yeah and we'll just invade any old country we like and kill innocent people while stealing there oil. cummon people America is a dictatorship under Bush. Do we want Europe to become the 4th Reich under Shroder and dopey Chirac ? I would suggest Ireland pull out of the EU now, we got our money and lets pull out now before its too late. Just look at the Norwegian Scenario a rich country in charge of it affairs including it oil and gas and its abbundant fisheries.

I rest my case.

Regards netwhizkid

Obviously pulling out now is the best course of action but unfortunatly th rest of the country don't see it that way

netwhizkid

Yes i agree, but most people wouldn't whatever cash the farmers get will sonn be gone in say 10yrs. It will be of no beneifit to Ireland to be Involved the EU any more, i'd even go as far as bringing back the Punt.

Regards netwhizkid

rsynnott

netwhizkid wrote:

Yes i agree, but most people wouldn't whatever cash the farmers get will sonn be gone in say 10yrs. It will be of no beneifit to Ireland to be Involved the EU any more, i'd even go as far as bringing back the Punt.

Regards netwhizkid

Ah, right. Of course, the Common Market does not help us economically in any way. Furthermore, we don't benefit from European courts or legislation at all. Anyone who suggests that Europe built our roads and our railways is obviously delusional.

And you certainly did rest your case above. Norway is incredibly rich in natural resources. We have a small amount of gas, some fish and zinc. We can, obviously, beat Europe on zinc.

Next week, we can pull out of the UN, as well.

Bri

netwhizkid wrote:

Yes i agree, but most people wouldn't whatever cash the farmers get will sonn be gone in say 10yrs. It will be of no beneifit to Ireland to be Involved the EU any more, i'd even go as far as bringing back the Punt.
Regards netwhizkid

I find it quite unbearable just how misguided people are about Europe. People are entitled to opinions but.... :eek:

Briefly:
-The EU is not simply a bureaucracy for signing structural funds and CAP cheques.
-IMO, The constitution is not a stepping stone towards a super-state. It is definatley not a clear indication of this, and I'd happily argue it isn't a realistic possibility. Member States don't throw away sovereingty without thought. It is a lot more complex than that.
-Could you tell us more about why exactly we'd want the Punt brought back? Because an Italian minister said something similar recently? Because we've got all the EU has to offer?! Hmmm. A small open economy with a common currency in a common market. What a dreadful idea!
-Please note that Chirac and Schroder will not be around long enough to try and fulfil these ideas.

4Xcut

rsynnott wrote:

Anyone who suggests that Europe built our roads and our railways is obviously delusional.

He did not say that they didn't build anything or give us money. What he did say was that we will not continue to fecieve money from Europe in the same volumes we once did. We got what we came for so lets go

More than likley you are right about Chirac and Schroder not being around too fulfil any of their ideas but they have put them out there. Its very hard to get rid of an idea. They may not finish them but they will put the ball rolling

rsynnott

4Xcut wrote:

He did not say that they didn't build anything or give us money. What he did say was that we will not continue to fecieve money from Europe in the same volumes we once did. We got what we came for so lets go

What a lovely sentiment. Have you considered a career as a corporate looter?

4Xcut

Prehaps that is a bit mean but screw that. Some countries have to have more money than others otherwise currency would be valueless. It may aswell be us.

rsynnott

Hmm, and what happens next time we need help? They'll look at us and say "oh, they're the ones who took our money and never gave anything back last time round".

murphaph

bonkey wrote:

Is there evidence of some super-congolmerate which has occurred which has done what you're describing?

I imagine the US is a good example of how a superstate can dumb down individual cultures. When the US was founded as many people spoke German and French as English. That's pretty much gone now awith just a few remnants in Pennsylvania and Louisiana. I know loads of colleagues from the North Eastern US who have wonderful french names but can't speak a word. I dare say if their ancestors had settled <100 miles north in Quebec that they'd still speak French.

Interesting stuff but I agree with the majority sentiment here that a USE is never likely to happen. What we have is a bit like the USA, just it's kind of messier in how the wealth is distributed between member states.

rsynnott

murphaph wrote:

Interesting stuff but I agree with the majority sentiment here that a USE is never likely to happen. What we have is a bit like the USA, just it's kind of messier in how the wealth is distributed between member states.

Really? I was under the impression that there was massive inequality of distribution of wealth in the US, as well. New York and California are massively rich, places like Tennasee, not so much.

murphaph

rsynnott wrote:

Really? I was under the impression that there was massive inequality of distribution of wealth in the US, as well. New York and California are massively rich, places like Tennasee, not so much.

You misunderstand. There are loads od sh!t poor parts of the US, no doubt-I've seen 'em. The 'messiness' is in so far as the US has federal taxation, Europe does not but funds are still redistributed about the EU through fairly inneficient means, that's all I was refering to.

rsynnott

murphaph wrote:

You misunderstand. There are loads od sh!t poor parts of the US, no doubt-I've seen 'em. The 'messiness' is in so far as the US has federal taxation, Europe does not but funds are still redistributed about the EU through fairly inneficient means, that's all I was refering to.

Ah, right, yep. Though they also have some form of state-level taxation, no?

murphaph

rsynnott wrote:

Ah, right, yep. Though they also have some form of state-level taxation, no?

Oh, yes, indeed. Most of your taxes are state level. Many of the wealthier states you mentioned have issues paying federal taxes too-just like the germans in west germany resent paying the 'unity tax' which goes to the east and the same goes on all over Europe.

Board@Work

I like most people have a fear of a US of E. Of people in brussels making decisions that affect our daily lives yet are completely out of touch with our culture.

The fear lies in a losing of our sovernty and culture in a federalised state. Most europhiles seem to dismiss this as an irrational fear but it is definitely moving in that direction although the constitution seemed to clear up some of my fears.

I dont understand why we cannot move the Union more towards a confederacy of independent and sovereign states. (Maybe thats what we have now) With free trade, single currency and development fund to help the smaller poorer countries to develop. I also wouldn't have a problem with a unified defence partnership that couldn't declare war but could act as peacekeepers and for defence.

In the short term we should concentrate on not losing our independent tax regime to that of a federalised high tax continental one.

The Corinthian

netwhizkid wrote:

If anyone here watches the Simpsons and saw the Halloween special Where the Aliens Kodus and Klang took over the US presidential race.

I find it deeply disturbing that you take your political instruction from the Simpsons.

oscarBravo

The Corinthian wrote:

I find it deeply disturbing that you take your political instruction from the Simpsons.

I'm seeing a pattern here...

CerebralCortex

Is it just me or do I get a smell of fear of change in this thread and why are people so worried about cultural identity and then use it as a reason to have Ireland pulled out of the EU. Not every culture has a nationality, I know the culture I live my life by hasn't and I'm an Irish citizen. I'm glad (pride is vulgar) to have European Union written on my passport.

netwhizkid

Just simply what is the point of Ireland, joining a "united states of Europe", when our country is not even united itself. Or have any of ye watched "Michael Collins" Our freedom is our destiny and we should be able to predetermine that for ourselves.

Regards netwhizkid

liver bird

netwhizkid wrote:

Yes i agree, but most people wouldn't whatever cash the farmers get will sonn be gone in say 10yrs. It will be of no beneifit to Ireland to be Involved the EU any more, i'd even go as far as bringing back the Punt.

Regards netwhizkid

What a lovely selfish sentiment by the irish ,now your benefited by billion of pounds and you are now a successful country who should and will in a few years be contributing back some of the money that you have been given you want to pull out ?who said european solidarity was dead? I find it funny that britain always gets accused of not being european but we are a net contribuer.

netwhizkid

Originally posted by liver bird
What a lovely selfish sentiment by the irish ,now your benefited by billion of pounds and you are now a successful country who should and will in a few years be contributing back some of the money that you have been given you want to pull out ?who said european solidarity was dead? I find it funny that britain always gets accused of not being european but we are a net contribuer.

Why the heck should Ireland give our money to the EU, they shafted us from the start, Our fisheries were worth more if had kept control of them than all the EU money we recieved in total. Now they expect us to donate money while the Spanish plunders our fish, they even come up the large bays, Donate a few billion to them when Our own people are dying in hospitals, from alck of funds and care. You need to wake up to modern Ireland and see the quaqmire it really is.

Regards netwhizkid

Bri

Board@Work wrote:

I dont understand why we cannot move the Union more towards a confederacy of independent and sovereign states. (Maybe thats what we have now) With free trade, single currency and development fund to help the smaller poorer countries to develop. I also wouldn't have a problem with a unified defence partnership that couldn't declare war but could act as peacekeepers and for defence.

This book might interest you, written by a leading academic.

In the short term we should concentrate on not losing our independent tax regime to that of a federalised high tax continental one.

I'd also point you to read Moravcsik, who thankfully points out the million and one reasons why the EU is not about to turn into a federal state. It might put your fears at rest.

netwhizkid wrote:

Why the heck should Ireland give our money to the EU, they shafted us from the start, Our fisheries were worth more if had kept control of them than all the EU money we recieved in total. Now they expect us to donate money while the Spanish plunders our fish, they even come up the large bays, Donate a few billion to them when Our own people are dying in hospitals, from alck of funds and care. You need to wake up to modern Ireland and see the quaqmire it really is. Regards netwhizkid

You sir, have such a myopic view of things it's almost laughable. Shafted us? How could I forget the compulsary membership forced upon us?! Does the fact we've been net beneficiaries for way longer than we deserve not strike you at all? The EU is more than fisheries and CAP, although this may not be apparant to all. It's actually hard to know where to start in trying to draw you a bigger picture. :mad:

airetam_storm

netwhizkid wrote:

Just simply what is the point of Ireland, joining a "united states of Europe", when our country is not even united itself. Or have any of ye watched "Michael Collins" Our freedom is our destiny and we should be able to predetermine that for ourselves.

Regards netwhizkid

Oh dear, that film couldn't be biased

Can the myth please be despelled about europren unity

-The is never been any mention of a european 'Superstate'. This idea is ridiculas as the whole of (nearly)europe was engulfed in war little over half a century ago. THe EU was formed from a number of organisations that wished to prevent this happening again.

-Away from history lesson, pulling out of the EU is the must selfish thing i have ever heard. 1970 ireland=****...2005 ireland=rich country...catalyst=EU

murphaph

netwhizkid wrote:

Just simply what is the point of Ireland, joining a "united states of Europe", when our country is not even united itself. Or have any of ye watched "Michael Collins" Our freedom is our destiny and we should be able to predetermine that for ourselves.

Regards netwhizkid

We can. If a majority of the citizens of NI and Ireland wish there to be a UI then there will be. That situation doesn't exist at the moment.

As for your other comments about pulling out, I don't know where to start on how foolish that would be for a small TRADE DEPENDENT economy. :rolleyes:

Cojofl

netwhizkid wrote:

Why the heck should Ireland give our money to the EU, they shafted us from the start, Our fisheries were worth more if had kept control of them than all the EU money we recieved in total. Now they expect us to donate money while the Spanish plunders our fish, they even come up the large bays, Donate a few billion to them when Our own people are dying in hospitals, from alck of funds and care. You need to wake up to modern Ireland and see the quaqmire it really is.

Regards netwhizkid

You have to look beyond what our explicit net income/outgoings with regard to the EU. A lot of our national income is due to the fact we are part of the EU and it's common market. If we pulled out of the EU our economy would be smaller in ten years time than it otherwise be. The tax that the government would recieve due to this economic growth would far exceed any money the would have been saved on explicit outgoings to the EU.

netwhizkid

They are forcing us to do what they says. Thats not democracy thats a dictatorship. We voted NO to Nice and what did they do, they forced Bertie and Harney to hold another referendum, Then the gulible people voted yes. I for one hope the Eu fails and that Ireland withdraws from this Globalisation travesty that is the EU sooner rather than later.

Regards netwhizkid