Alcohol ...

incredula pert

What I find so interesting is the fact that certain people are so willing to ciricise binge drinking, and yet they suggest nothing to tackle it, or recognise that their attitides are infact destrucive when dealing with the whole issue.

You know what I also find interesting? Aooibheann is so ready to make assumptions about people who drink, and then when she accuses someone else of doing it, asks them to "refrain from it". Were you always such a fan of double standards? And I am not twisting any of your points, dear. You haven't really answered any of mine, just ran away from then, perhaps realising they make far more sense then what you're saying.

Fatty Foods are indeed relevant, very relevant, because like fatty foods, people occasionally can't control their consumption of alcohol, which leads to innumerable problems. No, there is no law against underage fatty food intake, but the problem has grown so vast, that ads for foods such as these have been banned on childrens television. And many health food experts argue that this is MORE destructive, because it doesn't teach children about controlling themselves, so when exposed they can't. And just like the blanket ban in Irish drinking culture, a similiar effect is witnessed.

My arguments do work, becuase its logical to assume that most people who binge drink in their teens don't infact turn out likeGeoge Best. While I'm not justifying nor condoning binge drinking, many people do it when they're young, because like I have said, they haven't been taught how to control it, however, when they are older (and sometimes wiser), having learned from their mistakes, this behaviour discontinues.

The problem, yes, has become so vast that it is difficult to tackle. And thinking that everyone underage should simply stop drinking is utterly naive of you. It will NEVER happen here. However, in order to tackle the problem, we NEED to take progressive steps. One step, using the logic of precedence, would be to lower the legal drinking age. People would no longer have the need to go to fields, and their consumption could be regulated, and being that spirits wouldn't be allowed, the risk of alcohol posioning would run much lower. Why are you so readily willing to criticise the current situation while expecting it to improve by it staying the same?

You keep saying, "thats fine" and things along those lines. Well Aoibheann have you ever considered that these people don't need your criticism? infact, i doubt they even want to hear it. You may not be right, you know. The mistakes which they make are their decisions, and theirs alone. And no amount of you bitching at them is going to change that. And "they'll learn in due course"?Well Aoibheann, that suggests that you think that everyone who drinks, not matter if they binge or not, will learn that it is wrong. Oh you silly girl, you've just condradctied yourself.

Oh my, I have made no wild assumptions, I suggest that you read your earlier posts before making *that* "wild assumption". When people lie like that, saying that they had less than they did, yes they do have a problem. And its called alcoholism, which is a disease! and they don't need you to criticis them. These people are PRONE to this behaviour, and most likely, if you are prone to it, no matter how much you first drink, its going to take hold of your life whether you originally choose for it to or not. So again, I invite you to get down off your high horse.

It wasn't me!

FFS! Leave her alone! Stop addressing everything you write at Aoibheann. There's no need for malice.

halenger

TalkISCheap wrote:

Just une questione: Should the level of alcohol consumed by a "responsible" adult be regulated?

Should the guy in the bar be forced to say "You've had enough"?

I'm not sure if you know this or not but the "guy in the bar" is already required to do that by law. A bartender is legally required to not serve someone who is drunk. Again, this is difficult to regulate - some people can hold their drunkenness better than others, and so on.

jono087

halenger wrote:

I'm not sure if you know this or not but the "guy in the bar" is already required to do that by law. A bartender is legally required to not serve someone who is drunk. Again, this is difficult to regulate - some people can hold their drunkenness better than others, and so on.

True enough. I'm a barman, and quite frankly that law is ignored. Most people seem fairly sober if the only words they say are "two heineken please", or something along those lines.... and even drunk people are always served because at the end of the day the bar is a business and profits are the bottom line...

GlitterB

It wasn't me! wrote:

FFS! There's no need for malice.

So true. So keep your arguments less personal Aoibhs.

halenger

incredula pert wrote:

You know what I also find interesting? Aooibheann is so ready to make assumptions about people who drink, and then when she accuses someone else of doing it, asks them to "refrain from it". Were you always such a fan of double standards? And I am not twisting any of your points, dear. You haven't really answered any of mine, just ran away from then, perhaps realising they make far more sense then what you're saying.

I've made this point at least once before - debate the issues, do not target the people. Anyone seen to target someone from here on out will be enjoying a one week ban. Your vengeful oppressor has spoken.

That is all.

Piste

Aoibheann Brady wrote:

Some drink, most dont. Those who do, know their limits.

Aoibheann Brady wrote:

I have no problem with other people drinking, just as long as they know what they're doing. And at our age, a lot dont

That's a bit contradictory isn't it?

It wasn't me!

Nope, in the first one she's talking about her friends who drink, the second, younger people in general. To be honest, this is a stupid debate that I've seen a few times before and it just boils down to petty commentry. Why can't it just end with "live and let live"? GlitterB, Aoibheann never mentioned names. She may happen to have a particular view, quite a strong one, but she's not malicious about it, Muireann is.

LiamD

In fairness, I was in the conversation with the person she is referring to and her and she may as well have named names because it was a deliberate attempt to get that person's back up.Just to make it clear who she was talking about she also said that I was the other person in the conversation.I think after that, tbh, Aoibheann really should have expected some personal replies.It was out of line.

Aoibheann

Piste: no, no it's not. Most of my friends that drink do know their limits, but in general, a lot of people dont.


ah yes, Dave said that already. Good work, that man!

Liquorice

I don't drink, except for one glass of wine at dinner-time or at a party occasionally, but I don't chastise those who don't. I just don't enjoy drinking and alcohol is one of the substances that just doesn't appeal to me.

I've noticed a lot of abuse coming from both sides in this thread(yes, both) instead of intelligent arguing, so if anyone is offended by this(hopefully not) I'll edit it because I do not want to contribute to the abuse and the high-horse-riding.

Yes, binge-drinking is bad, but so is the stigma around underage drinking. Parents should allow their children to drink to a certain extent. A glass of wine at dinner sometimes, permission to have a little bit to drink at parties etc. It builds up tolerance. It's not a 'forbidden fruit' so people don't go mad when they can finally purchase alcohol. My dad has told me countless stories of having to bring home some of his college friends, the ones who went a bit mad at the prospect of alcohol, because they tried to drink as much as him and couldn't handle it. He was introduced to alcohol at home(in small amounts), which made him able to handle it well and it didn't seem like something amazing to him.

From what I see, however, parents do seem to be introducing their children to drinking in moderation at home these days more than they used to. Yes, people who can drink at home do sometimes drink to excess when out and vice versa, but tarring everyone with either the 'omg you drink underage you must get langered all the time instead of drinking sensibly' brush or the 'omg you don't drink stop chastising us for drinking' brush is silly. No 16-year-old is exactly as mature as any other 16-year-old, or has the exact same attitudes. Some people who drink do it in an immature, dangerous way, some do it in a sensible way. Some people who don't drink are preachy about it, some(I hope I'm included here) don't care too much and leave other people to it.

Also, I don't see Muireann as being malicious but maybe I should re-read some of what she said.

Aoibheann

LiamD wrote:

In fairness, I was in the conversation with the person she is referring to and her and she may as well have named names because it was a deliberate attempt to get that person's back up.Just to make it clear who she was talking about she also said that I was the other person in the conversation.I think after that, tbh, Aoibheann really should have expected some personal replies.It was out of line.

no, I made no attempt to get anybody's back up. I'm not a malicious person. *shrugs*

That is all.

Plunky

I cannot BELIEVE that Liquorice proposed the idea of drinking from a young age is good for increasing "tolerance". Our livers are not DEVELOPED enough to DEAL with C2H5OH until we are approx 16-18, so that's just waffle. What's more is that cirrhosis is NO fun WHATSOEVER, so people shouldn't be drinking as much as they do! what a lot of people see as the "guideline" of 21 units per week (male) or 14 (female) is ACTUALLY the maximum which can be sustained by a healthy, full grown adult (a rare thing, in these times, thanks to convenience food and mass transport) before serious damage occurs shortterm, and even if "followed", will more than likely result in premature death from decreased liver function.

Liam's the one trying to wind people up, don't rise to it Aoibh...

Aoibheann

Don't worry, Eoin, I know, I know.

Good point there though...I've got an interesting link bookmarked on it somewhere...I'll dig it up.

It wasn't me!

In fairness, look at Europe, where children drink form a young age, with no ill effects. Alcohol is a poison. No matter what age you are it doesn't make a huge difference. I'd rather people were brought up with more mature attitudes to alcohol overall though, rather than eliminating it or giving a legal age to it that few who actually do drink wait for.

Plunky

Ah, the myths about Europe are coming out! Every Continental family I know, regardless of Nationality, takes issue with children of theirs imbibing alcohol before the legal age is reached... Age makes a HUGE Difference! Physical DEVELOPMENT of the LIVER is incomplete til age 16 or so, and only then can our bodies optimally deal with the poison of ethanol... There's a REASON for the law with regard to it!

doonothing

em, liquorice has a good point, starting small and building up a tolerance with some damage / drinking an insanely stupid amount you're not ready for as soon as you're legal...
lquorice's point may not be ideal, but the alternative isnt better in my opinion.

very few people i know (in fact, none) follow any of the recommended guideline amounts for anything. alcohol is no different.

It wasn't me!

Actually the liver isn't fully developed until about 25. It doesn't matter though. What's needed isn't more restriction on alcohol, it's more education and a better attitude towards it.

Plunky

I still maintain that it's a woeful idea. Children drinking is a crime, not only in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of humanity! Let them develop before destroying their insides! Let them be old enough to make their own decisions rather than forcing alcohol into them to "save them later" or whatever...

Piste

I think Aine was reffering to a mental tolerance, not physical, although she can correct me on this. I think it's a good idea for parents tto allow a chil to have a sip of wine every now and again. When we go to France my parents always let me taste wine and teach me to tel the differences between different ones but they would go ballistic, and quite rightly too, if I came home plastered. Alcohol has never been a completely alien thing to me, my parents have let me taste and only taste G&T, Beer, Wine, Sherry, pretty much any alcoholic drink just because I was curious. I'd say if they hadn't, I would quite likely be binging along with the rest of my year. But I dont because tbh, being drunk isn't that fun for me and I also know of the damages alcohol can cause.

Joycey

halenger wrote:

90% of college students are binge drinkers. Here's an interesting one for you also "Quarter of college lecturers binge-drink"... Story from http://newsweaver.ie/educationmatters/index000082627.cfm

90% is a random figure. It's not relevant really. The fact is, and you've yet to experience it, that a very large majority of college students do binge drink.

If you think about it the fact that this study concludes that 90% of the people who are the best and brightest in our educational system, who will be the ones who are the teachers, lawyers, doctors and scientists in the future, are actually binge drinkers should, by your reasoning and way of looking at things, mean that these people who we will be placing ourselves in the responsibility of in the future are unreliable or fat or lacking brain cells from waking up in ditches too many times...

Plunky

Best and Brightest? UCD? 'Nuff said...

halenger

If I wake up and find this thread a mess those who made it a mess and those who rose to the mess and helped continue it will be banned. ... Seriously.

Just bear that in mind when you go to post.


How about make the thread more interesting and enough of the rubbish attacking.

We know there's a problem. I think everyone can agree on that. Not that alcohol is a problem entirely but that there is a problem amongst college students who binge drink for there college years and younger people. Meh to wording. Anyhow.

There's some debate already on why the problem is there. Lets expand on that and propose solutions. Be civil. If you don't agree with what someone says then say so but don't rubbish their reply because it doesn't suit yours.

We're supposed to be the smart people and the "future leaders" and so on and so forth. You're the one in power - Minister for Health (and or on the team yadda yadda). How do you fix it? If you fix it at all even.

Now that's just an attempt to guide the thread in a general direction - you wont get killed for changing direction.

halenger

Joycey wrote:

If you think about it the fact that this study concludes that 90% of the people who are the best and brightest in our educational system, who will be the ones who are the teachers, lawyers, doctors and scientists in the future, are actually binge drinkers should, by your reasoning and way of looking at things, mean that these people who we will be placing ourselves in the responsibility of in the future are unreliable or fat or lacking brain cells from waking up in ditches too many times...

Ah here now. Re-read my last line - you quoted it even.


I never made that point at all. You will be quite surprised when you go to college if you think people don't "make the most" of the experience. I did however make the point before that people use their college years as a time to do that because they can't do it after that.

Binge drinking in college does not necessarily lead to binge drinking after college.

Piste

I think we should try and get rid of the taboo tbh, if there is less stigma surrounding it, less teenagers will turn to alcohol as a means of rebellion.

halenger

That is an interesting point alright. I've thought about it before in relation to so called "weaker" drugs. Would it work though? Perhaps. Amsterdam's cafe system seems to work - friends of mine did make go there (while inter-railing) to try them but didn't take them up when they returned here, as far as I'm aware.

Piste

Oh, another thing: 18 is the age where people are *supposed* to be able to make responsible choices and decisions about drinking. How are they to make these if they have no prior experiences/education of alcohol? As previously mentioned, once they are *finelly* allowed drink, many will take full advantage of it and often abuse it.

JenLorigan

Stop. Please.

I think there were some relevant points in the last page, but I'm too lazy to read it, due to the fact that the previous pages were people angrily re-stating the things they'd said in their previous five posts.

People aren't going to change their views on drinking because of a thread, okay?

I'm sure I'll be yelled at for this, but I'm not sure why...

It wasn't me!

It's true. This topic's come up several times in my memory, and all that happens is people tell us their views and bitch about why theirs are better than yours. It's a pointless debate, and yet seems to be a recurring one, which hardly makes it more interesting. :rolleyes:

Liquorice

Plunky wrote:

I cannot BELIEVE that Liquorice proposed the idea of drinking from a young age is good for increasing "tolerance". Our livers are not DEVELOPED enough to DEAL with C2H5OH until we are approx 16-18, so that's just waffle. What's more is that cirrhosis is NO fun WHATSOEVER, so people shouldn't be drinking as much as they do! what a lot of people see as the "guideline" of 21 units per week (male) or 14 (female) is ACTUALLY the maximum which can be sustained by a healthy, full grown adult (a rare thing, in these times, thanks to convenience food and mass transport) before serious damage occurs shortterm, and even if "followed", will more than likely result in premature death from decreased liver function.

Liam's the one trying to wind people up, don't rise to it Aoibh...

I'm not sure if you misunderstood, I don't think it's a wonderful idea to give 10-year-olds alcohol every weekend. At secondary school it is inevitable that subjects such as 'knacker-drinking' will be brought up. Many, many teenagers will go out drinking. Whether a quarter-glass of wine at dinner every now and again will deter them from getting 'slaughtered' or not really depends on the person. Liz was right, I was talking about 'mental' tolerance. Physical tolerance is based on size and genetics but can also be affected by alcohol consumed as far as I know, although it probably isn't because you seem pretty adamant about that and hence I'd say you've read information on it. My apologies. However, a small amount of alcohol consumed in the home gives people mental tolerance, they find out what sensations they experience after certain amounts and types of alcohol and know what they'll feel and act like when they go out drinking. Yes, an undeveloped liver+alcohol is never good, but how can one change a few generations' opinions and habits?