If nobody wants asylum seekers

Macmorris

pete wrote:

We have, so off you go and lodge an FOI request. Each department has at least one FOI officer who'll be more than happy to help you even draft your request.

Is it that difficult to get the information? I just assumed that people would be able to find details of government expenditure online.

I couldn't be bothered anyway. I'm not really interested in how much money is spent on asylum seekers. It just gets on my nerves the way the pro-asylum brigade think they can get away with the most brazen, dogmatic claims, because they know they're unlikely to be challenged. It seems that as long as the intention is to refute those scare-mongering racists, it's alright.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

Is it that difficult to get the information? I just assumed that people would be able to find details of government expenditure online.

No, it's not "that difficult" at all. You've heard of the interweb, yeah? Well, a whole five seconds spent typing a search into google reveals this arcane tome: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/public%20expenditure/Revest2005.pdf. So there's 261 pages of 2005 Government estimates for you. Knock yourself out.

Oh and one last time: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/seeking_asylum/direct_provision.html

I couldn't be bothered anyway. I'm not really interested in how much money is spent on asylum seekers.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?

It just gets on my nerves the way the pro-asylum brigade think they can get away with the most brazen, dogmatic claims, because they know they're unlikely to be challenged. It seems that as long as the intention is to refute those scare-mongering racists, it's alright.

Pretty much, yeah. Just too bad it's so easy.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

I was hoping that there would a government website where we could see where are our taxes are being spent, not just on asylum but on everything. I can't see why that information isn't readily available online. I'm sure it is, I just haven't been able to find it so far.

As posted above: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/public%20expenditure/Revest2005.pdf

Whatever it is, it is in addition to the money spent on necessities, so I think that would count as disposable income, income which could be used for "entertainment".

A whole €19.10 a week "disposable income". Party on.

I haven't been able to find any evidence either that they don't get free cars, buggies, or hair cuts. They get 'assistance' for clothes and other 'exceptional' needs. I wonder what those 'exceptional' needs are exactly?

So.... why don't you come back when you have any evidence of the former and have found out what the latter are?

bonkey

Macmorris wrote:

I haven't been able to find any evidence either that they don't get free cars, buggies, or hair cuts.

Ah, so its need evidence to say that an unfounded claim is false, rather than evidence to say that its true?

Interesting approach.

jc

pete

frootfancy wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4039071.stm

Algerian cheque fraud. I'm unaware as to a reason why people would need to claim asylum from Algeria.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE280072003?open&of=ENG-DZA

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_832000/832128.stm

A five year old story about individuals "believed to be Armenian asylum seekers"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3248011.stm

18 month old story about "suspected asylum seekers"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3040388.stm

Two year old story about Albanian criminals / kidnappers / people smugglers. No mention of "asylum seekers" anywhere in the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4642795.stm

Illegal immigrants. Not asylum seekers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/3637726.stm

Asylum seekers (including an ex-political prisoner from the Congo) turn to crime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3157214.stm

Romanian criminals who the police state "employed asylum seekers", but then in the following paragraph state are "brought in illegally" to pay off their debts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/3129089.stm

From the report - "The Immigration Service was unavailable to comment, but reports suggested no suspected illegal immigrants were arrested."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_705000/705600.stm

Another 5 year old story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_705000/705600.stm

And that's the same link again. It's still 5 years old.

Well that's just what i pulled up on one site. Asylum seeker fraud is rife in the UK.

Rife? Cobblers. Maybe next time consider actually reading the articles you link to before posting them as "proof".

Oh and thanks, in your rush to gain the moral highground that i infered this about all asylum seekers.

That's not very accurate, is it officer? You inferred it about all asylum seekers and immigrants.

KnowItAll

pete wrote:

Really? Because asylum seekers can't claim social welfare, and afaik DSCFA haven't "given out checks" (sic) since payments were transferred to An Post a number of years ago, and prior to that social welfare payments were made in cash.

Could it be your friend is a community welfare officer? If so, maybe you could ask him / her how much of his cheque writing is discretionary and how much is simply what people are entitled to, regardless of their perceived attitude?

Don't know the technical name of his job and don't care what it is!

My friend writes checks for asylum seekers and he has told me that for instance when the asylum seekers want checks for things like buggies they always go for the most expensive buggies. Thats the truth. I'm not a liar.

I don't have any kids but I know that buggies cost hundreds. My sister paid about 500 euro for one.

KnowItAll

rsynnott wrote:

Of course, no English or Irish person has EVER taken advantage of the system. Yes, there are some dishonest people from other countries. This is not used and should not be used as an anti-immigration justification.

Are you saying that it's alright to bring in thiefs, rapists and killers just because there are some here?

gandalf

KnowItAll wrote:

Don't know the technical name of his job and don't care what it is!

He's not much of a friend then is he then, I have aquaintances and I know what they do for a living. Theres a bloke down the chipshop who claims he's Elvis :rolleyes:

I suppose next thing you will say he is a mate of a mate.

My friend writes checks for asylum seekers and he has told me that for instance when the asylum seekers want checks for things like buggies they always go for the most expensive buggies. Thats the truth. I'm not a liar.

How do I know you are not a liar well, its the internet and alot of mistruths fly around it. Provide proof of these dastardly asylum seekers bleeding us dry or please be quiet. All I see is someone giving their opinion and no facts.

therecklessone

KnowItAll wrote:

Are you saying that it's alright to bring in thiefs, rapists and killers just because there are some here?

I imagine what he's saying is that its not alright to keep all immigrants out because some may be inclined towards dishonesty (his post mentioned neither thieves, rapists, nor killers, nor for that matter did the person he quoted when posting).

KnowItAll

gandalf wrote:

He's not much of a friend then is he then, I have aquaintances and I know what they do for a living. Theres a bloke down the chipshop who claims he's Elvis :rolleyes:

What is the relevance of not knowing the technical name of his job? He writes out checks and told me what I already knew, that asylum seekers are not satisfied with getting the basics, they want the best of everything with no expensives spared.

gandalf wrote:

I suppose next thing you will say he is a mate of a mate.

Nope

gandalf wrote:

How do I know you are not a liar well, its the internet and alot of mistruths fly around it. Provide proof of these dastardly asylum seekers bleeding us dry or please be quiet. All I see is someone giving their opinion and no facts.

I don't care what you think tbh!

Why should I provide facts? Most people here give their opinions without facts but some people (like me) are always being asked to provide facts.

pete

KnowItAll wrote:

Don't know the technical name of his job and don't care what it is!

A statement sure to fill anyone questioning the accuracy of your "facts" with confidence. For the moment, let's work on the assumption that your friend is in fact a community welfare officer.

My friend writes checks for asylum seekers and he has told me that for instance when the asylum seekers want checks for things like buggies they always go for the most expensive buggies.

How about you go back to your "friend" and ask him about the inner workings of the system? Specifically, see if you can find out if there's a ceiling on how much they can give out for any one 'exceptional needs' application. See if there are guidelines in place he has to work to. Maybe find out how much the average buggy cheque is - you know - facts & figures & that sort of thing.

When you're done, maybe find out from your sister why she paid €500 for a buggy when a cheaper one would apparently have been quite adequate, then see if you can apply the same logic to a health board client?

KnowItAll

therecklessone wrote:

(his post mentioned neither thieves, rapists, nor killers, nor for that matter did the person he quoted when posting).

They are the sort of people coming into the country so I thought I'd mention it.

KnowItAll

pete wrote:

When you're done, maybe find out from your sister why she paid €500 for a buggy when a cheaper one would apparently have been quite adequate, then see if you can apply the same logic to a health board client?

She likes to show off!

pete

KnowItAll wrote:

Why should I provide facts? Most people here give their opinions without facts but some people (like me) are always being asked to provide facts.

You're not giving your opinion - you're claiming that your 'friend' (in his as yet undetermined job) is forced to submit to the demands of all those nasty foreigners, all of whom know he has a pile of blank cheques, and demand whatever amount of money they want on a whim.

Totally believable.

Are you seriously surprised you're being asked to back this up?

gandalf

KnowItAll wrote:

What is the relevance of not knowing the technical name of his job?

You really expect me to believe you do not know what your mate does for a living? Cmon that is very very weak.

He writes out checks and told me what I already knew, that asylum seekers are not satisfied with getting the basics, they want the best of everything with no expensives spared.

So he told you what you already knew, where did you get this knowledge from, down the pub ? Also people wanting the best for themselves and their loved ones sounds like human nature to me :rolleyes:

I don't care what you think tbh!

Why should I provide facts? Most people here give their opinions without facts but some people (like me) are always being asked to provide facts.

Nope when challanged most people with a solid point of view or arguement can provide links or at least express themselves in a better manner than the rather pathetic "a mate of mine who does a job of which I do not know the name says that this is happening so it must be true" argument.

If you are not capable of backing up what you are saying and what I believe to be an untruth then please don't bother posting.

KnowItAll

gandalf wrote:

You really expect me to believe you do not know what your mate does for a living? Cmon that is very very weak.

He's a former classmate who I rearly see! He has moved to Dublin and I only saw him on a night out in April.

gandalf wrote:

So he told you what you already knew, where did you get this knowledge from, down the pub ? Also people wanting the best for themselves and their loved ones sounds like human nature to me :rolleyes:

I know what happens in the real world.

gandalf wrote:

Nope when challanged most people with a solid point of view or arguement can provide links or at least express themselves in a better manner than the rather pathetic "a mate of mine who does a job of which I do not know the name says that this is happening so it must be true" argument.

If you are not capable of backing up what you are saying and what I believe to be an untruth then please don't bother posting.

I just checked the Immigration Contracts thread. You stated that you saw something on RTE that said Arabs influenced Irish music (which I'd doubt).
So why didn't you give the name of that programe and the correct words that were said. The facts in other words!

Btw, don't forget to remind all the others about giving facts.

I need to get some sleep, Goodnight Gandalf!

frootfancy

Pete, bearing in mind i hadn't time to do a full round of the internet that's what you got. These stories give the account of what is dealt with in every day policing life. Also please bear in mind all i did was put the words 'asylum' and 'fraud' into the search. I didn't mention affray, robbery, rape, murder or assault.

Story five years old? Ok, so something that happened five years ago is not proof? Hitler wasn't really a bad man because it was all sixty years ago?


Regarding everything else you must have spent a great deal of your time trying to pick a fault with what came up. Hope you enjoyed yourself

"That's not very accurate, is it officer? You inferred it about all asylum seekers and immigrants."

Please point out where i did. All i refered to was the comment made that certain asylum seekers only seem to want luxery. If i inferred it about all i would have stated that every asylum seeker drives a Merc and has gold plated sovereigns on every digit. The fact that certain members scramble to prove me the biggoted, racist fascist means it was simply overlooked.

Never have i said i disagree with people claiming asylum. All i've said is that if there's no valid reason (ie imminent fear for life) then it shouldn't be entertained. Its the only way you'd start sorting out who is genuine and who's here for a ride. I've also never claimed other people than asylum seekers never commit crime. However as we have a choice of removing these criminals from our society then its worth mentioning. Its pretty hard to deport people back to the country they 'fled' when the furthest they've travelled is to the High Street of the town they live in. Its why we have prisons.


"asylum seekers and immigrants"

Someone mentioned earlier that i was more part of the problem than the solution. If you can't accept the apology for my mistake then maybe you should pull up a pew.

sceptre

frootfancy wrote:

Hitler wasn't really a bad man because it was all sixty years ago?

You've never heard of Godwin's Law, have you. That's a pity. Can we not have a silly Hitler-involved debate because that would be silly.

rsynnott

sceptre wrote:

You've never heard of Godwin's Law, have you. That's a pity. Can we not have a silly Hitler-involved debate because that would be silly.

No, seemingly a lot of people here haven't. Someone invoked it over on the Pope thread and then went on merrily.

frootfancy

I was waiting for this one.

Want something in recent history as a comparrison that anyone has heard of? Hitler will do.

The idea was to ask whether an age of an incident effected whether or not it was a valid point.

sceptre

frootfancy wrote:

The idea was to ask whether an age of an incident effected whether or not it was a valid point.

You might do well to consider frequency lest you end up with renormalisation problems. Put simply, one swallow does not a summer make and a number of swallows a number of years ago has no influence in deciding if it's currently sunny outside. Frankly I'm disappointed with your argument from an umpiring point of view. Try harder.

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

What is the relevance of not knowing the technical name of his job? He writes out checks and told me what I already knew, that asylum seekers are not satisfied with getting the basics, they want the best of everything with no expensives spared.

Except that you can do nothing to back up that as fact. Thats generally called libel btw. Based on your posts so far you have done nothing to prove that what you say is actually factual or that we should trust you.

Why should I provide facts? Most people here give their opinions without facts but some people (like me) are always being asked to provide facts.

Ok so it is your opinion that your friend thinks asylum seekers are ripping people off, not actually fact? If it is a fact you are required by the board charter to prove it or stfu.

Hobbes

frootfancy wrote:

Story five years old? Ok, so something that happened five years ago is not proof? Hitler wasn't really a bad man because it was all sixty years ago?

Bad analogy. A better one for your argument would be "All Germans are evil because Hitler was evil sixty years ago". See how that doesn't work?

Pete, bearing in mind i hadn't time to do a full round of the internet that's what you got. These stories give the account of what is dealt with in every day policing life. Also please bear in mind all i did was put the words 'asylum' and 'fraud' into the search. I didn't mention affray, robbery, rape, murder or assault.

You know being a cop and all it shouldn't be a problem (sans google) to pull up figures for fraud/robbery/rape/murder/assualt for asylum, refugees, immigrants and nationals and give us the totals and where you got them from?

gandalf

KnowItAll wrote:

He's a former classmate who I rearly see! He has moved to Dublin and I only saw him on a night out in April.

LOL you sure he even works handing cheques out to them then? Maybe he heard it from a mate!!

I know what happens in the real world.

I'm sure you are :rolleyes:

I just checked the Immigration Contracts thread. You stated that you saw something on RTE that said Arabs influenced Irish music (which I'd doubt).
So why didn't you give the name of that programe and the correct words that were said. The facts in other words!

Check it again, I posted it up probably before you posted this reply.

Btw, don't forget to remind all the others about giving facts.

I need to get some sleep, Goodnight Gandalf!

I will, back your claims up with something other than my mate, the ex classmate, who I met on one night out in April who claims that his job is handing cheques out to asylum seakers on demand. Enjoy your sleep it might help you see reality rather than fantasy.

frootfancy

"You know being a cop and all it shouldn't be a problem (sans google) to pull up figures for fraud/robbery/rape/murder/assualt for asylum, refugees, immigrants and nationals and give us the totals and where you got them from?"

Because if i was very much mistaken you'd asked me to quantify the statement by hook or by crook.

mycroft

frootfancy wrote:

Pete, bearing in mind i hadn't time to do a full round of the internet that's what you got. These stories give the account of what is dealt with in every day policing life. Also please bear in mind all i did was put the words 'asylum' and 'fraud' into the search. I didn't mention affray, robbery, rape, murder or assault.
.

Not many people know that Hobbes here danced all the great female leads with a small but prestigious Hungarian ballet company, before he defected in 1986, by leaping into the American Ambassador's box during a performance of Swan lake, in West Berlin.

Now I know what you're all thinking, but Mycroft, Hobbes is a dude I know, I know, long story, doesn't like to talk about it.

Frootfancy, I can claim a great deal of things on a interweb, and then claim my job/background etc makes me qualified and it's nice n all doesn't make it true.

We like to deal with facts, supported with evidence.

What makes me suspect (or pray) you're not a cop is your argument. Any cop I know worth his salt knows theres a world of difference between what you know and what you can prove. And presenting your argument, without anything to back up your assertions, without anything better than "I'm a cop, I know better" isn't going to stand up.

Oh and knowitall, pwnd.

shoegirl

frootfancy wrote:

I'm talking about immigration here. I was unaware i HAD to live in Ireland to post here. I'm pretty certain that as Irish citizens you go through the same processes and concerns as we do in England. Or is it custom to worry about your own little world whilst not considering what happens just across the water? The fact next to my user name it say i'm in England perhaps might be a clue to the fact i'm talking about the situation here.

I'm offering my opinions as a serving police officer in England and my experiences with asylum seekers and immigrants.

As for differentiation between the two, looking up the terms immigrant and aslyum seeker brings back the same definition. Whatever the terminology i'm talking about, at least here, it means exactly the same.

The social welafe system in Ireland is UTTERLY, UTTERLY different from that in the UK.
The legal framework is UTTERLY, UTTERLY different from that in the UK.
And te asylum and immigration system is enormously different - and probably a lot more liberal for historical reasons, than Ireland. Before the EU accession in the early 1970s Ireland had the same hostile attitude to immigrants from Europe as she has now to immigrants from outside the EU. (An ex German tutor of mine remebers having to carry a card in the 1960s stating she was an "alien", and that she was extremely restricted in what jobs she was allowed have).

I find it very sad that a serving police officer can openly express generalisations like yours. Perhaps you are one of the 10% of the force that Sir Ian Blair is so concerned about.

Sir Ian described the remarks at the heart of this week's employment tribunal defeat as Islamophobic: "That language was gratuitous, offensive and deliberate. Officers can expect to be disciplined for using language like that. I want this force to have no place for racism".

I notice you are not putting identifying information on your posts here. Shame on you. You ought to be reported to the police authority for your comments.

See http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1519510,00.html#article_continue

shoegirl

Wicknight wrote:

Immigration and asylum seekers are too seperate issues, with wildly differing factors.

For example, do you have objection to the tens of thousands of American citizens who work in Ireland and England for American owned multi-national corporations. Are they all screwing the system?

Or do you object to the 50,000 English people currently working and living in Ireland?

Actually last time I looked at the census there were 11,000 US citizens here.
And 100,00 UK citizens. Thats 40% of the entire immigrant population (which includes asylum seekers) of 250,000. Hardly swamped.

The total figure for Africans is about 20,000, but that includes about 4,000 South Africans, and Northern Africans such as Egyptians, who are mostly here on work visas.

What is interesting about the census is that certain people come here on work visas and others come seeking asylum. Part of the reason is that certain countries (eg Zimbabawe, Iraq, Ivory Coast) are so dangerous that there is a huge fleeing population and secondly there is a perception in other countries which are unstable that asylum is the only way to come to Ireland or the EU. There are no job fairs in Nigeria looking for them to come here as workers.

As for the claims about asylum seekers gets mobile phones, cars etc, from what I can see a lot of this is a sort of modified racism based on the fact that a lot of European workers who come here are of African descent. 1 in 15 of my colleagues at work are ethnically African, but all but one were born in Europe and are European citizens. (The last originally fled Kenya in the early 1980s after being persecuted for his religious beliefs - he was jailed as a young man - but he is a naturalised EU citizen from his country of refuge).

Some of these guys drive cars and regularly get abuse from nanderthals here who assume that they are asylum seekers just because they are black. In fact they are entitled to work here and most of them work hard for good money. I think this is one of the issues that has led to the mythology of the good-timing asylum scroungers. The "cars and phones" mythology is refuted in the Know Racism website, as well as on Oasis.

Lastly, there has been a concerted campaign by certain groups since the late 1990s to stop ALL immigration. It is believed by some people in the anti-racism movement that they are the source of the original rumours. Its hard to confirm for sure but I have yet to hear anybody who repeats these rumours tell me anything other than "somebody told me so" to qualify these claims. The reality is that asylum seekers don't get much over the basics - and they certainly don't get luxuries. But black EU workers will have these luxuries because they have worked for it. And to assume that somebody who is black who is driving a car is a scrounging asylum seeker is probably a form of racism as you are making an assumption about them based on the colour of their skin.

shoegirl
Your manner on this thread is threading a very thin line.
Concern yourself please with the side of the line that deals more with what the poster has posted and not with the poster.

Thats a general warning for everybody here by the way.
Uberwolf is the only mod that hasnt had to look at this thread yet,if he does on account of abuse,there will be bannings no doubt.
So behave,thanks.

Hobbes

frootfancy wrote:

Because if i was very much mistaken you'd asked me to quantify the statement by hook or by crook.

? You should know where those stats are, that are freely available to the public. Just want to see what the totals in relation to populations of each groups.