If nobody wants asylum seekers

Macmorris

shoegirl wrote:

The "cars and phones" mythology is refuted in the Know Racism website, as well as on Oasis.

Where exactly on the Know Racism website are those claims refuted? I've been looking through it but they don't seem to have much of that kind of information. It's the same with that Oasis site.

Its hard to confirm for sure but I have yet to hear anybody who repeats these rumours tell me anything other than "somebody told me so" to qualify these claims.

I haven't seen any evidence that there is any truth to those rumours, but I haven't seen any solid evidence that they're not true either.

Personally, I'm not bothered about what kind of VIP treatment asylum-seekers get. They could be given twice as much money for all I care. The thing I have a problem with is the fact that there seems to be so much confusion about how and where our taxes are being spent. If asylum-seekers are getting free cars and expensive hair cuts then it should be fairly easy to either prove or disprove that claim. If it isn't, it means we have taxation without representation in this country.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

If asylum-seekers are getting free cars and expensive hair cuts then it should be fairly easy to either prove or disprove that claim.

I'd like you to prove you're not first.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

Where exactly on the Know Racism website are those claims refuted? I've been looking through it but they don't seem to have much of that kind of information. It's the same with that Oasis site.

(vi) Myths Fact Sheet
Following a number of inaccurate and misleading media reports during 2002, including false rumours about asylum seekers
receiving financial assistance from the Government to buy cars and mobile phones and the danger that such reports were
encouraging racist attitudes, Know Racism developed a fact sheet which outlined the true position on entitlements with the
intention of counteracting the myths and misinformation. The fact sheet also took the opportunity of explaining the difference
between the terms “asylum seeker” and “refugee”. 4,000 fact sheets were distributed since October, 2002 to journalists, General
Practitioners’ waiting rooms and Citizens Information Centres. The fact sheet was augmented by a media workshop to clarify the
issues with journalists and members of the press, radio and TV.

http://www.knowracism.ie/pdfs/report%20on%20activities.pdf

Macmorris

pete wrote:

http://www.knowracism.ie/pdfs/report%20on%20activities.pdf

That's only a reference to a factsheet. Where is the factsheet itself where they have explicitly 'outlined the true position on entitlements with the intention of counteracting the myths and misinformation'?

Hobbes

Macmorris wrote:

I haven't seen any evidence that there is any truth to those rumours, but I haven't seen any solid evidence that they're not true either.

I haven't seen any evidence that you like to dress up in tutus and sing Chinese opera but I haven't seen any evidence that its not true either.

See how that works? In such an instance you don't have to prove jack.

But just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it magically is true. Otherwise polar bears live in my neighborhood simply because I haven't seen any evidence.

[qoute]fact that there seems to be so much confusion about how and where our taxes are being spent. [/QUOTE]

apart from FOIA, you can also ask your local TD for the info.

Macmorris

Hobbes wrote:

But just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it magically is true.

I've never tried to prove that the rumours are true. I was trying to show that the claim that the rumours are not true is not backed up with any solid evidence.

You yourself demanded that people adhere to boards policy and provide the evidence to back up any claims they make. When people confidently claim that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts, I think it's only fair that they provide the evidence to back up that claim, otherwise their claims can only be treated as opinion and not fact.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

That's only a reference to a factsheet. Where is the factsheet itself where they have explicitly 'outlined the true position on entitlements with the intention of counteracting the myths and misinformation'?

oh please.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3010048&postcount=93

Macmorris

pete wrote:

oh please.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3010048&postcount=93

I don't understand what you're saying. Prove that I'm not what?

And where is that factsheet?

pete

Macmorris wrote:

When people confidently claim that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts, I think it's only fair that they provide the evidence to back up that claim, otherwise their claims can only be treated as opinion and not fact.

These lads sum it up nicely:

proving non-existence: when an arguer cannot provide the evidence for his claims, he may challenge his opponent to prove it doesn't exist (e.g., prove God doesn't exist; prove UFO's haven't visited earth, etc.). Although one may prove non-existence in special limitations, such as showing that a box does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence, or non-existence out of ignorance. One cannot prove something that does not exist. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

pete

Macmorris wrote:

I don't understand what you're saying. Prove that I'm not what?

It's quite simple - I'd like you to prove you're not "getting free cars and expensive hair cuts". It should be fairly easy to either prove or disprove that claim, wouldn't you agree?

And where is that factsheet?

ah here now I don't mind pointing you in the right direction, but i'd appreciate it if you'd bother to read the stuff for yourself.

4,000 fact sheets were distributed since October, 2002 to journalists, General Practitioners’ waiting rooms and Citizens Information Centres.

I'm afraid i'm a bit tied up proving the non-existence of monsters under the bed this week so you'll have to find your own citizens information centre or, oh, i dunno... email the know racism people all on your own?

edit: Maybe you'll believe Michael McDowell?

We also need to tackle the urban myths which have lost nothing in the telling and retelling about the alleged cash payments to asylum seekers. These are nothing more than urban myths and should be rejected out of hand by all sensible people every time they are pedalled as representing absolute facts.

Failure to do this carries with it the real risk of promoting racist behaviour and attitudes.

The Steering Group for the Know Racism programme continues to be concerned about this issue. In its efforts to counteract these rumours, the Group produced a fact-sheet which has been circulated to the national and provincial media earlier this year. A revised draft of that fact-sheet has since been prepared and made available to you today.

The fact-sheet was derived from a more detailed leaflet produced by the NCCRI, in partnership with the UNHCR and the Know Racism Programme, entitled "Myths and Misinformation about Asylum Seekers". The Steering Group would like your assistance also in dispelling these myths and has included initiatives which dispel misinformation as one of the criteria attracting funding under the new phase of grant schemes announced last month.

http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A02CF/vWeb/pcJUSQ5Y8FDM-en

Edit#2 - Here's a quote from the original NCCRI leaflet referred to by McDowell:

Asylum seekers are not treated more favourably than
Irish citizens and are not, for instance, given
assistance towards the costs of cars, mobile phones
or socializing.

Failing that, i'd like you to prove it doesn't exist.

Macmorris

proving non-existence: when an arguer cannot provide the evidence for his claims, he may challenge his opponent to prove it doesn't exist (e.g., prove God doesn't exist; prove UFO's haven't visited earth, etc.). Although one may prove non-existence in special limitations, such as showing that a box does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence, or non-existence out of ignorance. One cannot prove something that does not exist. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.

So what you're saying is that the proof doesn't exist to support the proposition because it's not possible to prove a negative?

If it's impossible to provide the proof to support the negative proposition that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts then the claim that will just have to remain an opinion and not a fact.

As I've said already, I'm never tried to prove or disprove anything. I just want to make sure that when people make claims, that they adhere to boards policy and back up their claims with evidence.

ah here now I don't mind pointing you in the right direction, but i'd appreciate it if you'd bother to read the stuff for yourself.

So where is the factsheet then? Why should I have to email them? Surely that factsheet must exist somewhere online. Why didn't Know Racism just put it on their website, where it could be read by more people than it probably would anywhere else?

pete

Macmorris wrote:

So what you're saying is that the proof doesn't exist to support the proposition because it's not possible to prove a negative?

One would think from the above that you understand... and yet...

If it's impossible to provide the proof to support the negative proposition that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts then the claim that will just have to remain an opinion and not a fact.

A full list of asylum seeker's entitlements has already been posted, as taken from the Oasis website. Quotes from noted bleeding-heart liberal Michael McDowell have been posted, refuting the very claims you refer to, complete with references to documents (available online), which have also been quoted from and linked to.

What more proof do you want?

As I've said already, I'm never tried to prove or disprove anything. I just want to make sure that when people make claims, that they adhere to boards policy and back up their claims with evidence.

See above.

So where is the factsheet then? Why should I have to email them?

You're just having a laugh now, aren't you? I've already told you where you can find it. Twice.

Surely that factsheet must exist somewhere online. Why didn't Know Racism just put it on their website, where it could be read by more people than it probably would anywhere else?

Duhhh well obviously because it doesn't exist - just like everything else that's not on the internet.

Me and mickey mcdowell made it up as a prank but it just got out of hand. sorry, like.

pete

i have a confession to make. I posted inaccurate information.

I said that the original NCCRI leaflet was online - turns out it's not. It's actually the Know Racism one they have on their site.

So there you have it. Factsheet found, all is well in the world again.

Asylum seekers are not treated more favourably than Irish citizens and are not, for instance, given assistance towards the costs of cars, mobile phones or socializing.

Happy now?

Although it worries me somewhat that it doesn't explicitly state that asylum seekers don't get given a comely irish maiden to do with as they please to pass the time in mosney. because, you know, if they're not stating it there it might be true, mightn't it?

KnowItAll

gandalf wrote:

I will, back your claims up with something other than my mate, the ex classmate, who I met on one night out in April who claims that his job is handing cheques out to asylum seakers on demand. Enjoy your sleep it might help you see reality rather than fantasy.

I'm not going to keep saying it so if you or anybody else don't believe me, thats fine.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe anyway!

KnowItAll

shoegirl wrote:

The social welafe system in Ireland is UTTERLY, UTTERLY different from that in the UK.

I don't think so. Laws across Europe are generally the same with 1 or 2 small, insignificant differences.

shoegirl wrote:

I find it very sad that a serving police officer can openly express generalisations like yours. Perhaps you are one of the 10% of the force that Sir Ian Blair is so concerned about.

I notice you are not putting identifying information on your posts here. Shame on you. You ought to be reported to the police authority for your comments.

Is he not allowed to speak the truth?

Btw, everybody generalises. E.g If somebody went to Germany they would expect to hear German spoken because that is whats generally spoken in Germany.

Macmorris

Asylum seekers are not treated more favourably than Irish citizens and are not, for instance, given assistance towards the costs of cars, mobile phones or socializing.

So that's it then. That's all the information that exists, just one paragraph in a small factsheet that doesn't bother to provide sources for it's facts.

It will have to do I suppose. I was just hoping there would have been a more detailed and less condescending break-down of the expenditure so that we could see for ourselves exactly where our money is being spent. For example, I'd be interested in finding out more about that Exceptional Needs Payment. According to this, Exceptional Needs covers Travelling Expenses (I'm sure they just mean public transport), Repairs and Improvements, Clothing and Footwear (I'm sure they wouldn't include hair-cuts as part of this), Rent Deposits, and Other Circumstances. I would have preferred if they were a bit more specific on what constitutes 'other circumstances' and clarified that money for things like mobile phones does not come under this heading.

Still, there's no reason why we shouldn't just trust the NCCRI to be objective in the information they provide for our enlightenment. It's not as if they have an agenda or anything.

mycroft

Macmorris wrote:

I've never tried to prove that the rumours are true. I was trying to show that the claim that the rumours are not true is not backed up with any solid evidence.

Sniff, sorry, I was just thinking of Hobbes performance of the dance of the nutcracker in front of Regan, Regan later claimed that Hobbes beautiful performance was the spur that made him start the end of cold war.

You yourself demanded that people adhere to boards policy and provide the evidence to back up any claims they make. When people confidently claim that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts, I think it's only fair that they provide the evidence to back up that claim, otherwise their claims can only be treated as opinion and not fact.

This is pretty much basic logic,

I suggest that you have sexual congress with goats, you deny it, I than demand that you prove you don't, and until then I will go on claiming you enjoy goat love.


If I'm making the accusation I need to back up the accusation.

You're not in the pub now you need to back up your assertions.

Knowitall wrote:

I'm not going to keep saying it so if you or anybody else don't believe me, thats fine.


I don't know why it's so hard to believe anyway!

Because we have facts and figures to back up our assertions you have opinion backed up with pub facts, which have been refuted with our facts and figures.

Pretty basic really.

Knowitall wrote:

Is he not allowed to speak the truth?

I'm moderately certain police officers aren't allowed make unsupported racist assertions and claim their "experience" backs it up.

therecklessone

Macmorris wrote:

For example, I'd be interested in finding out more about that Exceptional Needs Payment. According to this, Exceptional Needs covers Travelling Expenses (I'm sure they just mean public transport), Repairs and Improvements, Clothing and Footwear (I'm sure they wouldn't include hair-cuts as part of this), Rent Deposits, and Other Circumstances. I would have preferred if they were a bit more specific on what constitutes 'other circumstances' and clarified that money for things like mobile phones does not come under this heading.

Now unless I'm very much mistaken, the exceptional needs payment referred to in the link you provided is available to Irish individuals in addition to non-nationals.

When was the last time you heard someone complaining of Irish people on welfare getting mobile phones, haircuts or cars? If the same system meets the needs of both native and non-nationals in need of exceptional assistance, why haven't the Irish cottoned onto the scam yet, and got themselves €500 buggies ("source" = KnowItAll) or the latest in cellular technology?

pete

Macmorris wrote:

So that's it then. That's all the information that exists, just one paragraph in a small factsheet that doesn't bother to provide sources for it's facts.

FFS man what exactly are you looking for - a comprehensive list of everything they're not entitled to? Be realistic - It's a government sponsored publication, launched by the minister for justice. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

It will have to do I suppose. I was just hoping there would have been a more detailed and less condescending break-down of the expenditure so that we could see for ourselves exactly where our money is being spent.

I refer you to previous posts pointing out exactly where such information is available from. But I suppose you want a nice website listing the answers to every single possible question one might have on government expenditure?

For example, I'd be interested in finding out more about that Exceptional Needs Payment. According to this, Exceptional Needs covers Travelling Expenses (I'm sure they just mean public transport),

As the very page you're selectively quoting from states, travelling expenses are paid on a once off basis under two specific criteria - hospital or clinic visit / visit an immediate relative in the slammer.

Repairs and Improvements,

Again, highly selective quoting. The furniture / household equipment payment and the repairs & improvements payments are payable to first-time local authority tenants and qualifying owner occupiers respectively. Needless to say, by definition asylum seekers do not fall into either category.

Clothing and Footwear (I'm sure they wouldn't include hair-cuts as part of this),

You're right - they wouldn't. You know this because you read the list of special circumstances listed as the qualifying criteria.

As it happens, the exceptional needs clothing allowance is paid annually and i believe it's the only case where the recipient doesn't have to provide quotes / receipts to get it. It comes to the grand total of approx €140 IIRC, payable at most once per year.

Rent Deposits

Again, not exactly relevant (direct provision and all that)

and Other Circumstances. I would have preferred if they were a bit more specific on what constitutes 'other circumstances' and clarified that money for things like mobile phones does not come under this heading.

You mean clarification other than the fact that this very suggestion has been rubbished by the minister for justice as a racist urban myth? Again, it's a list of entitlements not non-entitlements.

Still, there's no reason why we shouldn't just trust the NCCRI to be objective in the information they provide for our enlightenment. It's not as if they have an agenda or anything.

Which is?

mycroft

pete wrote:

FFS man what exactly are you looking for - a comprehensive list of everything they're not entitled to? Be realistic - It's a government sponsored publication, launched by the minister for justice. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

I think that we're now into the ostrich defense here

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA................................

pete

mycroft wrote:

I think that we're now into the ostrich defense here

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA................................

frootfancy

"I find it very sad that a serving police officer can openly express generalisations like yours. Perhaps you are one of the 10% of the force that Sir Ian Blair is so concerned about."

http://www.lse.co.uk/uknews.asp?story=OM2714530H&news_headline=cops_win_race_tribunal_as_sir_ian_is_slammed

You mean the man so impartial he can intervene in a case where an Asian officer can clear white officers of racism in order to try and prosecute them for it? I worry about what Ian Blair worries about.

Please do refer me to the complaints department. If i post with experiences on here its because i've lived them. I cannot cut and paste crime reports, witness statements, video interviews etc etc. If that makes me less of a person then so be it.

As for infering that i'm racist because i think asylum should be tightly controlled, then you're obviously mad. I do my job because people need help be they black, white, brown, yellow or any other skin colour you can think of. I don't differentiate who gets that help on skin colour. For implying i do because i don't support our asylum processes is quite frankly sad. I think the shame is on you.

As for giving opinion outside the Emerald Isle? I'm guilty guilty guilty. Where do i go to face execution?

I don't give my opinion based on experience because i know i'm right about everything, i give it because its what i have experienced. No amount of arm-waving racist insinuation can ever change that.

Hobbes

Macmorris wrote:

If it's impossible to provide the proof to support the negative proposition that asylum-seekers don't get free cars, buggies and hair cuts then the claim that will just have to remain an opinion and not a fact.

Now your getting it. Although flawed opinion would probably be better.

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't know why it's so hard to believe anyway!

Lack of factual context to back it up? Heresay?

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't think so. Laws across Europe are generally the same with 1 or 2 small, insignificant differences.

Pray tell? Have you compared the UK and Irish social welfare system? Can you tell us the differences and what is the same?

Is he not allowed to speak the truth?

It is only the truth if he can back up those claims with actual facts. As he hasn't been, all it is opinion.

Btw, everybody generalises. E.g If somebody went to Germany they would expect to hear German spoken because that is whats generally spoken in Germany.

So why doesn't everyone speak Irish in Ireland?

therecklessone wrote:

When was the last time you heard someone complaining of Irish people on welfare getting mobile phones, haircuts or cars?

About 2-3 weeks ago, heard a guy going on about how single mothers all get free houses from the government along with free buggies and other free stuff and never had to do any work. Pretty much false though.

Footfancy wrote:

I don't give my opinion based on experience because i know i'm right about everything, i give it because its what i have experienced.

If you have experienced it, then it would be recorded? No? Do the police not keep records and release reports? Remember we are going on about how you claimed that all asylum seekers were (a) same as immigrants and (b) all thieves.

You mean the man so impartial he can intervene in a case where an Asian officer can clear white officers of racism in order to try and prosecute them for it? I worry about what Ian Blair worries about.

Did you even read the link? "The panel ruled their suspension had been justified". They were in fact acting in a racist manner. It was just intervention of Ian Blair was the reason they got off. Even funnier is that they only got reported because another cop was on report and shopped them, their comment "We would of got away with it if it wasn't for that" (sic).

Sir Ian, said he considered it "extraordinary" that a misconduct board had found the officers guilty but decided that "no further action" was the appropriate sanction.

bonkey

Macmorris wrote:

I just want to make sure that when people make claims, that they adhere to boards policy and back up their claims with evidence.

I'd suggest you re-read policy.

It says that you provide sources or be willing to provide them if requested. It also mentions that simply pointing someone at google is often enough, hinting that the rule isn't a license to insist on being spoon-fed.

There is furthermore no requirement that the references be in the form of URLs so all of this "But where is it on Teh Intarweb" approach thats becoming an increasingly familiar sight is unfathomable to me.

At the end of the day, unless the mods have changed position radically since the last time this was discussd in Feedback, there is no onus on them to provide more and more evidence until you decide you're satisfied they've proven their case. This isn't a court of law, nor a competition where there's a winner.

Bear in mind, however, that anyone reading will see :

1) Person offering opinion, backed with no evidence other than unverifiable hearsay from a reputedly credible but anonymous source.

2) Person offering alleged facts, references where such facts have come from, and verifiable hearsay (e.g. McDowell's statements on what is and isn't happening are not proof).

Now, bearing that in mind....consider the comments about Hobbes and Regan, or yourself and goats, and ask yourself which group you'd put credence in regarding such topics. Then ask yourself why you wouldn't do the same in general. Then ask yourself why you aren't doing the same in this case.

jc

PANADOL

Now alot of the above posts seem to be saying about the hard time aslyum seekers are getting in this country , well if they dont like it the irish gov will fly them home . another thing can you tell me how it is that i see loads of these so called asylum seekers driving around in good cars how is this possible , when most of them a poorly educated and can just about speak english where is their income source? i was driving through longford last may and i noticed the amount of nigerians dropping their kids off to school and their were a lot of them , strange thing was most of them had cars how can this be ? i remember going to primary school in the 1980s and the poor people from the town simply walked and could not afford a car, ireland did not colonise africa uk did send them to the uk .another thing why is it every one of these people breed like rabbits another burden on our social service . my friend is a social worker and she says that goverment checks have been given to some of these people to buy cars , can we afford this?

Nodin

Put the shovel down and back away slowly.....

PANADOL

Nodin wrote: »

Put the shovel down and back away slowly.....

well if i didnt care about this country i would

OldJay

PANADOL wrote: »

well if i didnt care about this country i would

:rolleyes:

Also anyone notice that everyone seems to have a 'friend who is a social worker' in threads like this? lol

Here's a hint: Not all Nigerians or non-whites for that matter are asylum seekers or illegal immigrants. Many, and since you're generalising yourself, I'd venture, most actually are bone fide migrants who have chosen to settle down in Ireland and make a go of it, the same as Irish people do in numerous other countries.

I signed my next door neighbour's passport application as a reference the other week. Hope she gets it. They're a lovely family. Great to have them in the community.

sceptre

This thread was *four* years old.

Dragging up a thread where the last reply was four years ago to post the above is plain idiotic.