The cost of Grading in Martial Arts!!!

RedRaven

dudara wrote:

Actually, I was thinking of coming training in full armour or perhaps a chicken suit, I hadn't really decided as I'm a woman and so fickle. You never know what to wear until the morning. Thanks for setting me straight.

Wear what ya like just dont wear an attitude, you hot minx!!!:D

loz

ROLF @ Briano & Dudara

RedRaven

blondie83 wrote:

RedRaven I get the feeling that you just started up this thread for the sole purpose of attacking people on it who disagree with you

No not true at all, it just annoys me that students of another art think that this practise is ok thats all.

Dyr

grading is, by and large, a scam im afraid. I have no probs with PROFESSIONAL (ie: teaching is their source of income on their tax returns and not a handy nixer) instructors using it to pay their wages once they're upfront about it. But in reality grading and belts offer very little to people for all the emphasis put on them.

Imagine telling all the top dogs in a big martial arts organisation that they should ditch grades? "but how will we make money on certs and belts? and grading classes? and how will we create a hierarchy to sit on top of? what would you give people so they know they have offiical recognition? or to boost their ego's with baubles? how would we slap each others backs with 16th dan awards?? what would we administer? We'd have no reason to exist!!"

damn skippy yis wouldnt :mad:

I dont like MA organisations as a rule BTW

columok

nicely said Bambi.

Trappings are unnecessary. Its a power infrastructure that exists to perpetuate itself. You dont need any of it. Kinda like organised religion where all the attention goes into the infrastructure and the heirarchies and they spent so much time paying attention to all the little rules, rituals and ranks that they forget the point of it all.

As Recyclohippy in the Simpsons says.... Simplify MAN!!!

RedRaven

Bambi wrote:

grading is, by and large, a scam im afraid. I have no probs with PROFESSIONAL (ie: teaching is their source of income on their tax returns and not a handy nixer) instructors using it to pay their wages once they're upfront about it. But in reality grading and belts offer very little to people for all the emphasis put on them.

Imagine telling all the top dogs in a big martial arts organisation that they should ditch grades? "but how will we make money on certs and belts? and grading classes? and how will we create a hierarchy to sit on top of? what would you give people so they know they have offiical recognition? or to boost their ego's with baubles? how would we slap each others backs with 16th dan awards?? what would we administer? We'd have no reason to exist!!"

damn skippy yis wouldnt :mad:

I dont like MA organisations as a rule BTW

Eh Lads theres a latin phrase for that it goes something like "Nailus on the headus"!!!D

Kevin_rc_ie

Bambi wrote:

I dont like MA organisations as a rule BTW

anarchist.

Cake Fiend

RedRaven, you only need one exclamation mark per sentence. Unless you're eight, in which case you can just go nuts and we'll all understand.


I don't see how paying €20 (or €17.50 in my case) per 3-6 months is a big deal.

Kevin_rc_ie

yeah how else could we keep the koreans in their silken robes?

Dyr

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

anarchist.

damn straight, I'm all for organisation when it has a purpose other than to perpetuate its own structures.

Dyr

oops Colum already said that but used posher words

"Its a power infrastructure that exists to perpetuate itself"

columok

Hey,

The posh bit was perpetuate. That was my bit. You took it.

rainbow kirby

I don't mind paying the fees for gradings... Our examiner comes up from Cork to do our gradings so our grading fees cover his expenses, plus insurance, membership fees and all of that. Also, the club ended up covering the cost of the black belt grading for us (it's a college club).
Thankfully though no gradings for me for a long time now...

grosser

the fees are to cover the fact that an examiner is giving up his spare time to come and grade you!it is also to cover the cost of the hall for the grading and any other costs on the day!

Roper

RedRaven wrote:

Wear what ya like just dont wear an attitude, you hot minx!!!:D

loz wrote:

We have a prelim grading a few weeks before and he lets us know then if were ready or going to waste our time/money - this is mainly for the kids ( well parents ) as the adults shoudl really have the cop on to know themselves !

So you grade twice then...............

RedRaven

Less of the personal insults please! - Repli

loz

Roper wrote:

So you grade twice then...............

Dont pay for the prelim !

Roper

loz wrote:

Dont pay for the prelim !

But you still grade for the same belt twice?

loz

Roper wrote:

But you still grade for the same belt twice?

No - The prelim is only a run thru of what will come up in the grading and to ensure we and instructor are happy that we know what we will be tested on to ensure it makes sence that we test or not.

Roper

Fair enough. Still sounds like you grade twice though

loz

Roper wrote:

Fair enough. Still sounds like you grade twice though

I'm sure its the same type of run thru you give your kids prior to testing ?

columok

I'm sure its the same type of run thru you give your kids prior to testing ?

Should the same principles used on children automatically be used on adults?

loz

columok wrote:

Should the same principles used on children automatically be used on adults?

Maybe for the more junior grades that need reassurance that thier techniques are right ? ie dont yet have the experience or confidence to be sure if they have it right or not ?

if you know what i mean ?

columok

You get reassurance that your "technique" (in my eyes your skill) is right by sparring against a resisting opponent and seeing it work for yourself.

loz

columok wrote:

You get reassurance that your "technique" (in my eyes your skill) is right by sparring against a resisting opponent and seeing it work for yourself.

Techniques for lower grades might be as simple as - correct stances - forward stance - basic kicks - front snap - basic strikes - lunge punch etc ?


Hardly useful in sparing as a test of technique correctness are they ?


Loz

Kevin_rc_ie

If you're talking about TKD grades etc. I think this mock exam is very important because, in a typical TKD grade there is a sparring element and a Kata/form/pattern element. I think the pattern, even if you've learned it really well, can dismantle it's self if you make a tiny mistake, so a proper, pressure on run through is a good idea.

Well, obviously someone like colomok is going to say there shouldn't be a kata/form element. But Kata can't really be judged based on sparring against a resisting opponent.

They do these cool things in TKD gradings, you have to fight against a group of people, and the instructer/grader just judges your general approach etc., how well you cope etc etc.

Also don't they have demolition too? breaking boards for grading. looks like fun too.

columok

I would have thought that in a proper training system stances and basic strikes would be fundamental to sparring. How well you are moving and covering up would be pretty important.

loz

columok wrote:

I would have thought that in a proper training system stances and basic strikes would be fundamental to sparring. How well you are moving and covering up would be pretty important.

I think the value of thoses basic movements decreases over time and experience - they are a good base but of no value later

when was the last time you lunge punched from forward stance in the ring ?

Roper

loz wrote:

I'm sure its the same type of run thru you give your kids prior to testing ?

No, I wouldn't put them through it twice to be honest. Exams are hard enough for kids, especially when they're being judged by adults.

columok You get reassurance that your "technique" (in my eyes your skill) is right by sparring against a resisting opponent and seeing it work for yourself.

Thats fine, but we're talking about a technique based grading system, which like or no, is what it is.

Maybe for the more junior grades that need reassurance that thier techniques are right ? ie dont yet have the experience or confidence to be sure if they have it right or not ?

If coaching principles are applied, there's no need for a coach to 'examine' IMO. Unless there's a 'rehearsal' for say, a gymnastics floor routine. Why do they not know their techniques are right when they were learning them? That's the same as schooling surely, you show a kid how to do 2+2, if he doesn't get it you don't move on and then wait until before the test do you?

Kevin_rc_ie

well isn't there an argument, why bother learning stuff that you can't use.

columok

I think the value of thoses basic movements decreases over time and experience - they are a good base but of no value later

The value of a jab, basic foot movement etc should never ever decrease. Theyre fundamental to everything in stand up striking.

when was the last time you lunge punched from forward stance in the ring ?

I think teaching forward lunge punching is ludicrous.

Roper

I think teaching forward lunge punching is ludicrous.

As a fighting movement it has little or no use, but as a traditional movement, I refer back to my original statement, it is what it is, like or no.

Kevin_rc_ie well isn't there an argument, why bother learning stuff that you can't use.

Yes there is, but we are talking about a traditional type MA. There's functional stuff in there too. But that's really an argument for another day!

loz

columok wrote:

The value of a jab, basic foot movement etc should never ever decrease. Theyre fundamental to everything in stand up striking.

I think teaching forward lunge punching is ludicrous.

I never mentioned jab

columok

you said basic striking.

Basic striking concept no.1 is the jab.

Kevin_rc_ie

Basic striking is the Chop. Preferably, the judo chop. Hi-ah

loz

columok wrote:

you said basic striking.

Basic striking concept no.1 is the jab.

ok accept that ( im origionally WTF though so a jab isnt instinctual for me to use )

I think were going OT - i was saying that i think the prelim testing is valuable to both children and the less experienced adults.

You mentioned that a real test of technique was sparing ( ok not exact quote )

I said that the techniques were so basic as be be useless in sparing.

columok

I said that the techniques were so basic as be be useless in sparing.

If they are useless in sparring then they are useless full stop.

They are there for the sake of being there and no more.

loz

columok wrote:

If they are useless in sparring then they are useless full stop.

They are there for the sake of being there and no more.

I fully agree as with patterns and should be abolished - but they are part of the T side of the MA

And looking at other threads this has already been thrashed to bits,

This thread is regarding the cost of grading.

RedRaven

loz wrote:

I fully agree as with patterns and should be abolished - but they are part of the T side of the MA

And looking at other threads this has already been thrashed to bits,

This thread is regarding the cost of grading.

Well said loz, back to topic guys, costings!!!!! Yey or Nay on costs for grading??

Kevin_rc_ie

Back in the day, in judo, any blue belt or above, could grade any grade below their own. I'd assume it wouldn't cost anything.

Know, you pay to grade. about 25 euro. As far as I can remember, the 25 technically goes straight to the Irish Judo Association, and, at the end/start of the year, they award clubs money based on how many gradings they did. Something like that.

loz

I paid €32 for my last grading AIMAA TKD not sure where the money goes, but i do know that it was a sunday and there would be room hire in the complex we train in, and the instructor and other examiners personal time.

I dont mind paying it, in fact gives an additional incentive to train harder to ensure passing ( i know it should be incentive enough training but any extra push cant be bad can it ?)


Loz

Kevin_rc_ie

i hear black belts get all the chicks. that's why i train.

RedRaven

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

i hear black belts get all the chicks. that's why i train.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Clive

When I did TKD it was £6, which went up to £8 eventually. The money paid to rent the hall for the extra time, petrol for the examiner, certificates and belts.

Black belts costed £30 because of the admin in Korea.

When I organised gradings in another art, we charged €20.
Of this about €10 went to the head of the association and to get the cert, €3 to the instructor (along with the €70 they got paid anyway), fiver for the belt and plenty of other miscellaneous stuff. We always lost money on gradings.

Tim_Murphy

:eek:

rainbow kirby wrote:

I don't mind paying the fees for gradings... Our examiner comes up from Cork to do our gradings so our grading fees cover his expenses, plus insurance, membership fees and all of that.

In terms of colour belt gradings (@ €20) I think that's fair enough. But €130 for BB gradings is a different matter. The last time I did a grading, it was up in UCD two years ago, there must have been about 40 of us there, at 130 each thats a lot of cash! That said, that's actually not very expensive compared to many other TKD groups.

On the subject of prelims, I really can't think of a good reason to do them. (thats coming from someone who did 1 before my 1st dan, 3 before my 2nd dan and 4 before my 3rd dan!)

RedRaven

Tim_Murphy wrote:

:eek:

In terms of colour belt gradings (@ €20) I think that's fair enough. But €130 for BB gradings is a different matter. The last time I did a grading, it was up in UCD two years ago, there must have been about 40 of us there, at 130 each thats a lot of cash! That said, that's actually not very expensive compared to many other TKD groups.

On the subject of prelims, I really can't think of a good reason to do them. (thats coming from someone who did 1 before my 1st dan, 3 before my 2nd dan and 4 before my 3rd dan!)

Thats a lot of cash for grading, 130 for a belt???!!! 40x130 = 5200 some thing wrong there guys, how many of thes gradings per year??!!!

pma-ire

From NTKD site...

"Before Jigoro Kano invented Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system. Kano invented it when he awarded "shodan" to two of his senior students (Saito and Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external difference between yudansha (dan ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained dan ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obis in 1886. These obis weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today - Kano hadn't invented the judogi (uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern gi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black.

Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first "shodan" ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes, or in their underwear.

Most other arts that have ranking/belt color systems adopted them from the Japanese."

and this site has a nice piece on the subject.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/hisbelt2.htm

On grading costs I know from being involved in them with TKD that the costs can be split between the instructor and examiner. Sometimes money has to be paid back to the association as well!!

When I grade in Ao Denkou Kai with Prof. Rick Clark there is no fee! No matter what rank you are grading for!!

They are not the original way of showing skill in the arts. So to be truly traditional you should move away from there use as a method of subjection.

Tim_Murphy

130 for a belt???!!!

Nah, you had to buy the belt seperately!!

how many of thes gradings per year??!!!

It's an annual event.

RedRaven

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Nah, you had to buy the belt seperately!!


It's an annual event.

So they charge you the earth then you dont even get the belt you must pay for it yourself???!!!!!

RedRaven

pma-ire wrote:

From NTKD site...

"Before Jigoro Kano invented Judo, there was no kyu/dan ranking system. Kano invented it when he awarded "shodan" to two of his senior students (Saito and Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external difference between yudansha (dan ranks) and mudansha (those who hadn't yet attained dan ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obis in 1886. These obis weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today - Kano hadn't invented the judogi (uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern gi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black.

Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first "shodan" ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. The adoption of the kyu/dan system and the adoption of a standard uniform based on the judogi were 2 of the 4 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing karate as a "real" martial art. If you look at photographs of Okinawan karateka training in the early part of this century, you'll see that they were training in their everyday clothes, or in their underwear.

Most other arts that have ranking/belt color systems adopted them from the Japanese."

and this site has a nice piece on the subject.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/hisbelt2.htm

On grading costs I know from being involved in them with TKD that the costs can be split between the instructor and examiner. Sometimes money has to be paid back to the association as well!!

When I grade in Ao Denkou Kai with Prof. Rick Clark there is no fee! No matter what rank you are grading for!!

They are not the original way of showing skill in the arts. So to be truly traditional you should move away from there use as a method of subjection.

Thats sounds better and more like it!!!!