North & South

rsynnott

axer wrote:

All the more reason for it to happen - considering the amount of catholics murdered through british collusion and by the british army.

People in the North (and they were generally not entirely innocent of wrongdoing) wre killed by unionists and the British. That is not a good reason to commit a couple of million people to a horrible church-controlled mess, and the UK would not have stood for it. The answer to a system that is unjust to catholics is NOT to replace it with a system that is unjust to protestants, you know...

axer

rsynnott wrote:

People in the North (and they were generally not entirely innocent of wrongdoing) wre killed by unionists and the British. That is not a good reason to commit a couple of million people to a horrible church-controlled mess, and the UK would not have stood for it. The answer to a system that is unjust to catholics is NOT to replace it with a system that is unjust to protestants, you know...

I don't believe it was an injust system to protestants. It was more injust to catholics as they were the ones sent to those laundries etc. I believe protestants would have been treated fairly had the country not been partitioned.

rsynnott

axer wrote:

I don't believe it was an injust system to protestants. It was more injust to catholics as they were the ones sent to those laundries etc.

The political/religious mess in Ireland at that time was injust to everyone. Especially women, gay people, illegitimate children, non-catholics, people who wanted to have sex without concieving... but everyone, really.

axtradub12

If Britain were to pull out of Northern Ireland,and Ireland as a whole over some rule by the EU.All British bussiness i.e shopping malls ect. Unemployment would reach a new High over night.

axer

It was and still is a very young state. We have developed very quick. Maybe it would have become less of a church controlled state had a large group of another religion been part of it.

rsynnott

axer wrote:

It was and still is a very young state. We have developed very quick. Maybe it would have become less of a church controlled state had a large group of another religion been part of it.

Do you really believe that? We should be thankful that it was only as church controlled as it was; it could have been a lot worse. We've only very recently shaken off some of the last legacies of church domination; in 1993, homosexuality and condoms(!) were legalised. This has gone off topic...

axer

axtradub12 wrote:

If Britain were to pull out of Northern Ireland,and Ireland as a whole over some rule by the EU.All British bussiness i.e shopping malls ect. Unemployment would reach a new High over night.

The longer it takes before it happens the worse it will be when it happens.

rsynnott

axer wrote:

The longer it takes before it happens the worse it will be when it happens.

I see no reason to suppose it will EVER happen. We'll probably all be part of a one-nation Europe before it happens.

axtradub12

I was reading this with interest this evening, take a peep, www.irishunionism.org

I think they beating an old drum

rsynnott

axtradub12 wrote:

I was reading this with interest this evening, take a peep, www.irishunionism.org

I think they beating an old drum

Hmm, they sound just about as sane as you do, tbh.

county

as a english man living in this country and my gf coming from the north i like to say i see both sides of the issue,[she is a nationalist]over the last few years peoples opinons in the south have changed sum what,when i first moved over here every time i opened my mouth i got abuse,but it seams more so the abuse is directed to my gf,you can honestly say the people in the south would accept the northeners in a united ireland,living in the south has totally changed my gf,s views on a united ireland,she would rather remain a part of the uk and would hate to see united ireland,i have my own views on the subject and we do debate sum what but not being welcome in your so called country i think is a little bit sad

Flex

MT wrote:

I doubt very much that there will be a united Ireland. The Catholic birth rate has slowed to such an extent that it is unlikely that a Catholic majority will materialise. Instead, there may just be a 50/50 society. Then when you look at past surveys a substantially greater number – usually around 25-30% - of Catholics prefer the status quo than a much smaller share of protestants that desire a united Ireland. With that long term trend remaining unchanged a 50/50 society in the North or even one with a slight Catholic majority will not deliver a yes vote in a border poll.

Fact is that the Protestant population is generally "older" than the Catholics, along with the fact that in 2004 51.5% of all primary school children were Catholics seems to indicate that the Catholic population is on the verge of overtaking the Protestant population. God knows, perhaps ill see a Ctholic NI in my lifetime? Anyway, when that does happen the "Protestant state for Protestant people" will be gone and Protestants might realise that Catholics holding the majority wont destroy them. And once again if 25-30% of Catholics favoured the Union then Unionists would win 65% or more of the seats, which they dont. The SDLP and SF usually take 42-44% of the share which is consistant with the fact 44%(probably slightly higher now) of NI is Catholic.

And have Republicans ever done anything to contribute to the North’s failure. Of course not, their campaign of bloodshed and violence was only in the interests of peace and harmony. Didn’t you realise, 'they’re the real victims in all of this'.

Didnt nationalists turn to the IRA as a result of being treated like second class pieces of **** and being ignored for decades (for centuries if you want to look at it in its broader context) in their own country, rather than a desire to start a fight.

In short, I say long may partition continue and long may support for an all-island state wither.

In short, I say please God may that not happen, and may the ideals of Irish Republicanism, as born in 1798, live on.

It seems theres two threads dealing with very similar topics at the moment. Anyway, Ill paste this question here too, to hopefully get an answer from the pro-partitionists
Id like to pose a question to all the pro partitionists on this thread. Basically it goes like ;If Ireland can be partitioned because people from Britain are living here who desire a link with Britain, why cant the same be done for the Irish living in Britain? The situations are pretty identical ; Irish have been in Britain for centuries, still feel a strong sense of Irishness and attachment to the Irish State(for example Liverpool consistantly elected Irish nationalist MP's) and so on. Only difference between the Irish in Britain and British in Ireland is the Irish didnt arrive in Britain with soldiers to drive the natives out of the place.As some also love pointing out how Ireland was, in their opinion not a single entity which validates partitioning Ireland ,well, Ireland was just as much a single political entity and had as much structural union as Britain.Thus, if Ireland could be partitioned to allow people from the island of Britain to maintain a "link" with that island, then people from the other island of the UK(as it was) could be afforded a similar right. If you agree with this arguement your consenting partition in Ireland is wrong and shouldnt exist unless a corresponding arrangement is made for the Irish in Britain; if you disagree your being hypocritical.

Sand

God knows, perhaps ill see a Ctholic NI in my lifetime? Anyway, when that does happen the "Protestant state for Protestant people" will be gone and Protestants might realise that Catholics holding the majority wont destroy them. And once again if 25-30% of Catholics favoured the Union then Unionists would win 65% or more of the seats, which they dont. The SDLP and SF usually take 42-44% of the share which is consistant with the fact 44%(probably slightly higher now) of NI is Catholic.

You might see a Catholic majority, but it will still be a unionist NI in all reality.

Currently its difficult for Catholics to vote for openly unionist parties for reasons of sectarian divide - give it 10-20 years of relative peace and that will change. Id imagine most Unionist Catholics vote for whatever party best represents them locally for as long as the "Question" remains far off in the future. When the "Question" comes to the fore in a Catholic majority NI then theyll vote in *their* best interests, whilst we will vote in *our* best interests which will lead to the border remaining.

Didnt nationalists turn to the IRA as a result of being treated like second class pieces of **** and being ignored for decades (for centuries if you want to look at it in its broader context) in their own country, rather than a desire to start a fight.

Arent you just proving MTs point for him?

If you agree with this arguement your consenting partition in Ireland is wrong and shouldnt exist unless a corresponding arrangement is made for the Irish in Britain; if you disagree your being hypocritical.

Oh I agree with both cases, that partition is justifiable in either case - only one small problem with your either or thesis...a majority in the North agree with partition.

Theres no such political critical mass anywhere in the UK.

Other than that of course its entirely the same proposition.

Flex

Sand wrote:

You might see a Catholic majority, but it will still be a unionist NI in all reality.

Currently its difficult for Catholics to vote for openly unionist parties for reasons of sectarian divide - give it 10-20 years of relative peace and that will change. Id imagine most Unionist Catholics vote for whatever party best represents them locally for as long as the "Question" remains far off in the future. When the "Question" comes to the fore in a Catholic majority NI then theyll vote in *their* best interests, whilst we will vote in *our* best interests which will lead to the border remaining.

I said a Catholic NI, not a UI. Anyway, if catholics were really in favor of the union they could simply vote Alliance party. Also while some catholics may be or become unionists, the same could happen with protestants becoming nationalists, after a few years of peace. Just look at how many people in the south are now in favor of maintaining the union between Britain and Ireland for example, attitudes may change. Perhaps a formation of a 'Southern Irishmens Unionist Party' isnt far away.

Arent you just proving MTs point for him?

I dont think so. From MT's point i got the impression that the blame for situation in NI rests equally on the shoulders of republicans and unionists, which it doesnt. While both sides do have to answer for it, Unionists should shoulder more of the responsibility

Oh I agree with both cases, that partition is justifiable in either case - only one small problem with your either or thesis...a majority in the North agree with partition.

Theres no such political critical mass anywhere in the UK.

Other than that of course its entirely the same proposition.

I intended it to be the same proposition, i wanted to use arguments i often hear against the people i hear them from.
What if a political organisation was formed? Would people here support it with the same enthuasiasm they support the British unionists in the north east? Most likely no. The idea would be dismissed and be considered a joke. Partition Britain, absolutely not; partition Ireland, sure no problem would most likely be the attitude. Besides, at the time Ireland was being partitioned to allow for Britons in Ireland to maintain the link to Britain, Liverpool had consistantly elected nationalist MP's, so we should have gotten Liverpool? Anyways, I think its a good argument and could be used to good effect by nationalists. I know plenty of people in Glasgow, London and Liverpool who'd welcome being a part of the Irish nation.

Thanks for the response BTW

rsynnott

Flex wrote:

I said a Catholic NI, not a UI. Anyway, if catholics were really in favor of the union they could simply vote Alliance party. Also while some catholics may be or become unionists, the same could happen with protestants becoming nationalists, after a few years of peace. Just look at how many people in the south are now in favor of maintaining the union between Britain and Ireland for example, attitudes may change. Perhaps a formation of a 'Southern Irishmens Unionist Party' isnt far away.

The only real reason for Irish people to want a united Ireland is emotional; for people in the UK it's a chance to get rid of the place. I doubt you'll see many protestant nationalists (in the north; you might see some in the UK). Independance still seems the best for all concerned...

djmarkus

An independant state is the only way to get peace, but it wont make enough revenue to sustain itself. In years and generations to come all sides of the divide will interbreed and mingle and there will be peace

rsynnott

djmarkus wrote:

An independant state is the only way to get peace, but it wont make enough revenue to sustain itself.

I don't see why not. Possibly not to the standard to which it has become accustomed, but it would still be among the richest countries in the world...

uberwolf

djmarkus wrote:

An independant state is the only way to get peace, but it wont make enough revenue to sustain itself. In years and generations to come all sides of the divide will interbreed and mingle and there will be peace

presumably a massive factor in the requirement for a susbsidy is the political instability stifling inward investment?
Also as an independent state they would prob ride the Euro gravy train...

rsynnott

Assuming they joined; most of the major parties their currently are confirmed euro-skeptics, no?

uberwolf

rsynnott wrote:

Assuming they joined; most of the major parties their currently are confirmed euro-skeptics, no?

in the hypothetical Northern state that is being touted I project that that will no longer be the case.

Flex

rsynnott wrote:

Flex wrote:

The only real reason for Irish people to want a united Ireland is emotional; for people in the UK it's a chance to get rid of the place. I doubt you'll see many protestant nationalists (in the north; you might see some in the UK). Independance still seems the best for all concerned...

Im sure the UK has considered pulling out many a time, but they probably havnt because it would probably end up in a war. How long would nationalists accept being ignored when the Orange Order and their bretheren come a knockin every year to celebrate their dominance over the Irish, because i doubt the parades commission would last long in an independant NI controlled by the remnants of the DUP, for example.who'd make sure the parades commission wasnt simply dismantled? The only reason nationalists arnt being subjected to OO parades ,at the level they used to be, at the moment is because the British are keeping the parades commission in action. The nationalists would eventually turn to the IRA and rioting,which would probably require the army to assist the police; and I doubt an NI army would attract alot of nationalists, so the army would be mainly full of unionists and before ya know it thered be a civil war.

Sand

I said a Catholic NI, not a UI. Anyway, if catholics were really in favor of the union they could simply vote Alliance party. Also while some catholics may be or become unionists, the same could happen with protestants becoming nationalists, after a few years of peace. Just look at how many people in the south are now in favor of maintaining the union between Britain and Ireland for example, attitudes may change. Perhaps a formation of a 'Southern Irishmens Unionist Party' isnt far away.

So did I?

Nobody really votes for the Alliance party sadly enough. And I cant see a significant NI Protestant embrace of Irish Republicanism when the proponents of Irish Republicanism have been killing them in attacks like Kingsmills and attacking their beloved institutions for decades. Irish Republicanism has an irrational emotional romantic appeal maybe for Catholics, but for Protestants?

There would actually have to be a case set out for it in cold hard facts - and the EU and normal cross border deals resolve any issues regarding economic partition. Arguments like "Its an Island! See? an Island! an Island! - I rest my case your honour" dont really sell the idea to anyone other than the already converted. Seeing as the region is far better funded from the UK exchequer than it could ever hope to be from the Dail - I really fail to see how there will be a United Ireland ever.

I dont think so. From MT's point i got the impression that the blame for situation in NI rests equally on the shoulders of republicans and unionists, which it doesnt. While both sides do have to answer for it, Unionists should shoulder more of the responsibility

His point was that each side blames the other for the troubles - you disagree by blaming the other side for the troubles. He was engaged in a parody of blinkered unreasoning fanaticism. Whats your excuse?

What if a political organisation was formed? Would people here support it with the same enthuasiasm they support the British unionists in the north east? Most likely no. The idea would be dismissed and be considered a joke. Partition Britain, absolutely not; partition Ireland, sure no problem would most likely be the attitude

Id happily agree to the partition of Britain if a sizable politcal mass desired it....such as the Welsh independance parties, or the Scots independance parties. Those nationalist movements have however so far been satisfied, and won support only for regional parliments. Without murdering and on a similar time scale to the IRA. Interesting. If they wanted to go the whole hog and declare independance Id imagine Id wish them the best, though Id think they were being slightly foolish but hey.

The same applies to the UK - If people in Ulster want to remain in the UK then fair enough - theres a sizeable political mass there. To be honest, your question is heading down a dead end. Liverpool might have elected Nationalist MPs - great. Theres no indication that there was any significant demand nor was it part of their manifesto afaik that Liverpool be partitioned. Hence saying, X supported Y, so hence they also supported unrelated A is not logical.

murphaph

In answer to the OP,
I doubt the people of Ireland will ever be united. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing either. Plenty of countries are divided along various lines and the island of Ireland needn't be any different. We have rich and poor, homeless and housed, black, white and yellow, settled and traveller, northsiders and southsiders, jackeens and culchies, republicans and monarchists, british and irish (and corkonians ) loyalists and nationalists, catholics, protestants, sunnis, shiites, jews, buddhists and atheists and goodness knows what else.

Bottom line-there's a sh!t lot of diversity these days and so long as folks can live in peace and quiet then who gives a toss if we're united?

Bobby Storey

Well,well, well, what have we here? Could it possibly be people from the South of Ireland showing their crass ignorance of events in the North? Of course it must be as we have MT spewing forth his bile, bigotry and hatred of Northerners while accusing us of, well bigotry and hatred, hypocrisy me thinks. Then we have this other moron Rsynnott telling us that all victims of British/Unionist death squads were not completely innocent, wow such insight. Maybe you should tell this to the families of the 33 people the British Army slaughtered in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings in the 70's? Of course you don't want us unless its summertime and we are arriving laden with cash, then there is a great big Cead Mile failte, isn't there? Just ask anyone in Donegal, our cash employs most of the county. I'm just wondering if the shoe should not be on the other foot, I mean after all didn't Jack Lynch and that cowardly organisation called laughably the Irish Army, leave catholics to be slaughtered a lá Bosnian style massacres in 1969?

MrPudding

Bobby Storey wrote:

Well,well, well, what have we here? Could it possibly be people from the South of Ireland showing their crass ignorance of events in the North? Of course it must be as we have MT spewing forth his bile, bigotry and hatred of Northerners while accusing us of, well bigotry and hatred, hypocrisy me thinks. Then we have this other moron Rsynnott telling us that all victims of British/Unionist death squads were not completely innocent, wow such insight. Maybe you should tell this to the families of the 33 people the British Army slaughtered in the Dublin/Monaghan bombings in the 70's? Of course you don't want us unless its summertime and we are arriving laden with cash, then there is a great big Cead Mile failte, isn't there? Just ask anyone in Donegal, our cash employs most of the county. I'm just wondering if the shoe should not be on the other foot, I mean after all didn't Jack Lynch and that cowardly organisation called laughably the Irish Army, leave catholics to be slaughtered a lá Bosnian style massacres in 1969?

I thought MT was a Northerner?

I know that myself as a Northern Catholic would have no interest in a UI. Most of my friends still up there would also have no interest, they are happy with the standard of living they have.

MrP

79cortinaz

the north is far far far too small to survive on its own - thats the way it was designed - and teh relevative peace thats there at the minute will only last because people are hoping for a better peace deal. the place has got inbuilt problems running through the government, the ruc/psni, local councils etc etc that need to be addressed.

Personally I believe the place should be completely deconstructed and united with the rest of the country, although in reality that would have to take place over decades of time.

As for the economuy in the south - stop voting in such capitalist and corrupt politicians would be a start. we cant say what the economy of a united ireland would be like as none of us have ever seen such a place. If though, one thought about it, it would be easier to market ireland to the world economy as one place rather than the way it is now. as for the unionists? I think that should be settled by majority rule - and before you assume who the majority is, bear in mind that in 1980 and 1990 there wasnt a lot of cencus info filled in by nationalists, so the public atistics on the number of people in the north mightnt be all that accurate (plus add that a lot of hard core republicans rty not to show up as a statistic on british records).

All in all, I hope someday the country will be united. I hope the PSNI/RUC disband and a proper police force appears (check out "Priest threatened for objecting to flags flown outside his house" at http://ulsterherald.com/news.htm and that was only last week) and as a northerner living here in the south, I hope southeners will take an interest in whats goin gon in their own country and help do something about it.

79cortinaz

MrPudding wrote:

I know that myself as a Northern Catholic would have no interest in a UI. Most of my friends still up there would also have no interest, they are happy with the standard of living they have.

MrP

The standard of living? theres a lot more to the question than how good the standard of living is. the pay dont forget is half of what you get down here.

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

In answer to the OP,
I doubt the people of Ireland will ever be united. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing either. Plenty of countries are divided along various lines and the island of Ireland needn't be any different. We have rich and poor, homeless and housed, black, white and yellow, settled and traveller, northsiders and southsiders, jackeens and culchies, republicans and monarchists, british and irish (and corkonians ) loyalists and nationalists, catholics, protestants, sunnis, shiites, jews, buddhists and atheists and goodness knows what else.

Bottom line-there's a sh!t lot of diversity these days and so long as folks can live in peace and quiet then who gives a toss if we're united?

I think you are missing the point that we arent living in peace. I think you are taking the current peace process a tad for granted.

79cortinaz

Flex wrote:

rsynnott wrote:

Im sure the UK has considered pulling out many a time, but they probably havnt because it would probably end up in a war. How long would nationalists accept being ignored when the Orange Order and their bretheren come a knockin every year to celebrate their dominance over the Irish, because i doubt the parades commission would last long in an independant NI controlled by the remnants of the DUP, for example.who'd make sure the parades commission wasnt simply dismantled? The only reason nationalists arnt being subjected to OO parades ,at the level they used to be, at the moment is because the British are keeping the parades commission in action. The nationalists would eventually turn to the IRA and rioting,which would probably require the army to assist the police; and I doubt an NI army would attract alot of nationalists, so the army would be mainly full of unionists and before ya know it thered be a civil war.

the british wont go as they have a multi billion pound industry in espionage and anti-guerilla warfare training in the north - experience that they then sell to armies world-wide. those 6 counties are worth a fortune to britain in the field of military expertise alone. send a soldier over to the north for six months and they come back a war veteran ready to train others, like Amerricans going to Iraq. big money.

county

79cortinaz wrote:

The standard of living? theres a lot more to the question than how good the standard of living is. the pay dont forget is half of what you get down here.

is that fact.i dont think so!