North & South

79cortinaz

oscarBravo wrote:

Do you look Catholic, or something?

i am not even going to bother explaining that. you dont need to 'look' catholic. i have no idea how, but these people were quite aware i was catholic as is the way it is. I know of many people who experienced the same

79cortinaz

79cortinaz wrote:

wasnt he released? Maybe im thinking of one of th emany others who were arrested for th eomagh bombing .. i could be wrong

No he wasn't released.
Iirc he's already in prison on separate matter.

FTA69

Do you look Catholic, or something?

That can ususally be determined by the part of town you're walking around in.

Interesting. I libed in NI for the first 28 years fo my life. I never once got any trouble from the RUC. Not once. Ever.

I'm glad for you, but ask people in West Belfast, Portadown or the Bogside about police brutality/harrasment/collusion and everyone will have their own personal story about it.

If you were getting trouble from them everyday do you think there may have been something in your behaviour that caused this?

The RUC/PSNI are a politically motivated police force and as such they follow the agenda of a state that was built on repression. Did those innocent Catholics murdered by Loyalists through police collusion have "something in their behaviour" to warrant that? Did Samuel Devenney have "something in his behaviour" that deserved his beating to death in his own home in Derry in 1969? Being a Republican, Nationalist or even a Catholic is enough reason to attract the attention of a counter-insurgency, sectarian militia along the RUC's nature.

Did you ever try to be civil to them?

How can you be civil to people who collaborate with the death-squads picking off your communities, or those who storm your estate with armoured cars and baton charge and shoot innocent demonstraters (Garvaghy Road)?

MrPudding

79cortinaz wrote:

so its my fault i would be randomly harrassed by the RUC? thats basically what you are saying, and i must say, thats a bit ignorant of you. you obviously lived in a nice area. also, i dont thinki ever opened my mouth to an RUC officer, especially whilst being harrassed, so ther was nothing " in [my] behaviour that caused this".

It was caused because I was a Catholic and nothing else. I was completely apolitical at the time, so even my politics wouldnt have been the cause. it was just purre basic harrassment.

Count yourself lucky you werent harrassed for being a nationalist and dont try to ridicule those that have been. the only pattern I see is one of 'Im all right jack, never happened to me' which is fair enough, but dont be brushing me with that you seem to have others painted with thank you very much.

I did not ridicule you. I was simply pointing out that the people that come onto boards and complain about harrassment seem to have a certain view. I fully appreciate that the attitude may be a result of the harrassment but my point is why are all Catholics not harrassed?

I am from Coleraine, it is not a nice place. Quite a protestant area. None of my Catholic friend got harrassed. I also know Catholic from Belfast, they did not get harrassed either.

You seem to be trying to get this idea accross that life in NI is hell for Catholics. I am saying that that is not my experience or the experience of any of my friends.

I am very glad you sister is going to have a better standard of life down here. I wish her all the best.

TBH I am earning considerably more money down here than I was in the north. That is not because the salaries are better down here, my role in the North pay similar or slightly more.

But then I need to earn more.

• My rent went from £240 per month to €1600 per month.
• Health insurance went from 0 to €150 per month. I didn't feel I needed it in the North but I sure as hell need it here.
• Road tax for our car trebled.
• Car insurance increased.
• Let's not even start on childcare
• Booze is way more expensive. It is cheaper to brink in bars in the north than it is to go to the off license down here.
• Child sick? €50 to see the doctor. Prescription charges and any fancy treatment on top of that.

If I was single with no kids I would be doing OKish. Cost are far and away more expensive here. Why do I stay? I couldn't get a similar role in the north, and we are slowly dragging our way up the ladder. It is a case of delayed gratification. Take the pain now because we know things will get better.

MrP

MrPudding

FTA69 wrote:

I'm glad for you, but ask people in West Belfast, Portadown or the Bogside about police brutality/harrasment/collusion and everyone will have their own personal story about it.

I have family in Portadown. THey actually live on the Gervaghy (SP?) Road. They do not get harrassed.

I have plenty of friend in other areas of Belfast, they also do not get harrassed.

My sister live in various areas of Derry over a number of years. I do not know Derry well but she described several of the houses she lived in as being in "well dodgy" areas. She never got harrassed.

FTA69 wrote:

How can you be civil to people who collaborate with the death-squads picking off your communities, or those who storm your estate with armoured cars and baton charge and shoot innocent demonstraters (Garvaghy Road)?

Here we come to the nub of it. So you are saying you are not civil to them? If you aren't then can you reasonably expect them to be civil to you? Could you perhaps give us an idea of a typical conversation between you and the evil RUC/PSNI? There has to be a reason why some Catholics are harrassed and some aren't.

At some point people have to let go of the past. I know it was bad. I know Catholic were horribly abused but it is in the past. If people do not move on it will never end.

MrP

murphaph

Funny, I've never had anything but courteous help from any PSNI officer I've asked for directions in NI and I'm most definitely identifiable as from being from the south. Perhaps not lobbing bricks at them while asking was the key.

Scumbags get harrassed by the Guards down here all the time and I for one, am glad they're keeping tabs on them.

Time to grow up, accept that living in NI today is not like it was when Catholics couldn't vote blah blah blah before most of us were born. It's a democracy with equal rights (indeed you are actively discriminated against if you're not catholic and apply for the PSNI as they have a 50% catholic hiring, 50% 'other' policy). I think if you treat people the way you'd like to be treated yourself you'd have no problems. I have never had an abuse from anybody up north (actually I find northerners friendlier) because I don't go into a place expecting trouble.

What are the church attendances like in NI?

I assume they're like the south and have collapsed in recent years and religion is less important to all sides or is it just a good excuse to lob stuff at each other (well without religion it only leaves Rangers and Celtic!). Funny how we never see public order problems in upper/middle class areas and it's always the rough estates, always. Clearly it's more of a class issue than a religious one.

Some people from NI who post on here wonder why their southern 'friends' don't care about them in their 'plight'-it's because watching UTVLive/BBC Newsline is actually the same every single day-It goes like so group x throws stuff at group y, group z (the cops and fire fighters) get it from both groups x & y. Yawn-very tiresome.

Edited to show how Orangemen need police protection to march in Ulster-absolutely disgraceful! See the photos!!

79cortinaz

theres no point in arguing about if harrassment exsts or not in the north. it just doe. some witness it, some dont - thats just the way it is. if are a person who has never been badly and randomly harrassed by the RUC then fair enough - but others have and the RUC/PSNI do do it.

to murphaph - if you believe that all is right and fair in the north, then grand - believe that. the underlying problems in the north have not been dealt with and they will re-appear if not addressed. I just hope not too many other people share your view as its a bit shortsighted.

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

x & y. Yawn-very tiresome.

Edited to show how Orangemen need police protection to march in Ulster-absolutely disgraceful! See the photos!!

i haveno idea if you are being sarcastic. just try and cross the road when theres an orange march going by. or, try walking home after a 'black' march and see if you can avoid the four-drunken-orangement-with-baseballbats-crusing-around-for-a-taig-to-batter

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

theres no point in arguing about if harrassment exsts or not in the north. it just doe. some witness it, some dont - thats just the way it is. if are a person who has never been badly and randomly harrassed by the RUC then fair enough - but others have and the RUC/PSNI do do it.

Of couse it exists. It exists everywhere-even in this republican utophia of the 26 counties! Anybody else see that video on 'Insight' about those kids in Derry getting the sh!t knocked out of them by cops-Protestant kids living on the Waterside, but I guess that doesn't fit in with your 'all PSNI officers harrass Catholics' stance. You're unable to seperate religion at this stage and are completely blinkered by it. The cops harrass people the world over, including the republic (see: Morris Tribunal). SF scream bloody murder when a catholic is harrassed but not when a Protestant is, the Unionist parties say nothing at all for their reasons so nobody ever hears of Protestant mistreatment at the hands of the PSNI. Ultimately of course it's a minority of officers who misbehave-on both sides of the border but at least you have an ombudsman to investigate such claims.

MrPudding

79cortinaz wrote:

theres no point in arguing about if harrassment exsts or not in the north. it just doe. some witness it, some dont - thats just the way it is. if are a person who has never been badly and randomly harrassed by the RUC then fair enough - but others have and the RUC/PSNI do do it.

No there is a point. You seem to be trying to get the idea accross that every Catholic in the north is harrassed and every PSNI officer is a vicious catholic abuser. This is simply not the case.

Of course some people are harrassed. And I am sure that some them are guilty of nothing. But can you please answer this question:

Why are only some of the catholics in a given area (you choose one I don't mind) harrassed and others not?

If we look at this in a rational way the only conclusion is that "some" of the people who are being harrassed are doing something or have an "added feature" that makes them more likely to be harrassed.

It is not simply because they are Catholic. There are more Catholics in NI that aren't harrassed (admittedly this is an assumption on my part, but I think it is a reasonable one,) than that are. So it can't be the Catholic thing alone.

It isn't the location beacause not all the Catholic in a particular area are harrassed.

So if it isn't simply beacuse of what they are or where they are what makes some Catholic prone to harrassment and others not?

MrP

county

is this a catholic thing or an irish thing or both,as an english man and a catholic would i get harassed from both sides of the community?

79cortinaz

you're insight into what i was saying was completely off th emark then. I am not trying to get the idea accross that every Catholic in the north is harrassed and every PSNI officer is a vicious catholic abuser. I was stating the fact that I got harrassed a lot due to my religion. as I said some get harrassed, others dont.

What I WAS trying to say was that just because other people havent experienced that harrassment, doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
AS to your question - i dont harrass people so I cant answer you.

MrPudding wrote:

No there is a point. You seem to be trying to get the idea accross that every Catholic in the north is harrassed and every PSNI officer is a vicious catholic abuser. This is simply not the case.

Of course some people are harrassed. And I am sure that some them are guilty of nothing. But can you please answer this question:

Why are only some of the catholics in a given area (you choose one I don't mind) harrassed and others not?

If we look at this in a rational way the only conclusion is that "some" of the people who are being harrassed are doing something or have an "added feature" that makes them more likely to be harrassed.

It is not simply because they are Catholic. There are more Catholics in NI that aren't harrassed (admittedly this is an assumption on my part, but I think it is a reasonable one,) than that are. So it can't be the Catholic thing alone.

It isn't the location beacause not all the Catholic in a particular area are harrassed.

So if it isn't simply beacuse of what they are or where they are what makes some Catholic prone to harrassment and others not?

MrP

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

Of couse it exists. It exists everywhere-even in this republican utophia of the 26 counties! Anybody else see that video on 'Insight' about those kids in Derry getting the sh!t knocked out of them by cops-Protestant kids living on the Waterside, but I guess that doesn't fit in with your 'all PSNI officers harrass Catholics' stance. You're unable to seperate religion at this stage and are completely blinkered by it. The cops harrass people the world over, including the republic (see: Morris Tribunal). SF scream bloody murder when a catholic is harrassed but not when a Protestant is, the Unionist parties say nothing at all for their reasons so nobody ever hears of Protestant mistreatment at the hands of the PSNI. Ultimately of course it's a minority of officers who misbehave-on both sides of the border but at least you have an ombudsman to investigate such claims.

find me where i stated the 'all PSNI officers harrass Catholics' stance for a start.

as I said, theres no point in arguing about if people get harrassed (note I said people there, just like I said last time .. thats people of either religion), so talk on as much as you want (though dont continue making up things that I apparently have said thanks) , Ive said all I have to say on the subject.

murphaph

county wrote:

is this a catholic thing or an irish thing..?

It's a class thing! Never see rioting between prods and tims in the well to do parts of NI now do we?

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

It's a class thing! Never see rioting between prods and tims in the well to do parts of NI now do we?

damn right. the problems in the north arent religious as much as about power, money and greed.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

find me where i stated the 'all PSNI officers harrass Catholics' stance for a start.

I can't-sorry I apologise for assuming your position which you have cleared up with the following;

79cortinaz wrote:

as I said, theres no point in arguing about if people get harrassed (note I said people there, just like I said last time .. thats people of either religion), so talk on as much as you want (though dont continue making up things that I apparently have said thanks) , Ive said all I have to say on the subject.

You have accepted that the PSNI harrass individuals from any religion (there's more than just Christians in NI). The Gardai do the same down here as do the Met in London and the LAPD in LA. Shall I go on? The PSNI are like any other police force. Usually, as MrP points out there is a reason for this harrassment and it is not completely random (thogh sometimes that will happen).

rsynnott

Hmm, I've always wondered what'd happen if a non-christian got murdered in the north. It's always reported as a catholic was murdered or a protestant was murdered...

79cortinaz

The RUC are not like any other police force, please, stop with the silly talk. I wont ever bother going down that road with you as its so blinkered.

there is a reason for this harrassment and it is not completely random

please explain that to me. explain why I and other people have been constantly harrassed by the RUC, considering I personally never broke the law, never was ignorant to the RUC nor asked for their attention in anyway.
You're problem is you cant explain that - but that IS what happens.

Again, I'm talking to the wall here. It doesnt matter what I say, you basically will never see what Im saying.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

The RUC are not like any other police force, please, stop with the silly talk.

True-they don't exist anymore!

79cortinaz wrote:

please explain that to me. explain why I and other people have been constantly harrassed by the RUC, considering I personally never broke the law, never was ignorant to the RUC nor asked for their attention in anyway.
You're problem is you cant explain that - but that IS what happens.

Well, when you quoted me as saying;

there is a reason for this harrassment and it is not completely random

You nicely left out the proviso whch takes care of your individual experiences with the PSNI, because what I actually said was;

there is a reason for this harrassment and it is not completely random (thogh sometimes that will happen).

79cortinaz wrote:

Again, I'm talking to the wall here. It doesnt matter what I say, you basically will never see what Im saying.

You're talking to someone who won't agree with you like a nodding dog just because you think he should. This is boards, welcome to the world of debate and mature argument. If you want to slag off the brits ad nauseum there are plenty of fora for that.

oscarBravo

79cortinaz wrote:

just try and cross the road when theres an orange march going by.

Or, y'know, don't.

79cortinaz wrote:

I was stating the fact that I got harrassed a lot due to my religion.

How do you know it was due to your religion?

79cortinaz wrote:

the problems in the north arent religious as much as about power, money and greed.

Ah, right. So, you got harrassed due to your religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion. I see.

MrPudding

79cortinaz wrote:

just try and cross the road when theres an orange march going by......

I woul dimagine this woul dbe approx. as difficult as trying to cross O'Connell street during the Paddy's day parade. Though with less vomit.

MrP

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

You're talking to someone who won't agree with you like a nodding dog just because you think he should. This is boards, welcome to the world of debate and mature argument. If you want to slag off the brits ad nauseum there are plenty of fora for that.

yadda yadda . please, once more, find where im slagging off the brits etc etc. I find you obviously cant deal with debate and have decided to make up replies for me. ah well.

79cortinaz

oscarBravo wrote:

Or, y'know, don't. How do you know it was due to your religion? Ah, right. So, you got harrassed due to your religion, for reasons that have nothing to do with religion. I see.

I give up on you to be honest. Obviously the north in your world is rosy, nice, polite and fair. everythings dandy up there, eh? Why bother with this dicussion if thats the attitude?

MrPudding wrote:

woul dimagine this woul dbe approx. as difficult as trying to cross O'Connell street during the Paddy's day parade. Though with less vomit.

I suppose so if you get the **** kicked out of you by the st paddys day marchers and given lots of verbal and physical abuse. otherwise, no, it wouldnt be the same.

79cortinaz

i dont know. as a parting shot (this thread has bored me at this stage) Im glad to see how

a) many have little understanding of whats going on in their own country and

b) few actually care

Sad that some posters pretend people like myself are saying things I not, but then I suppose if you didnt do that then there'd be no arguing, which obvioulsy wouldnt be fun for you.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

yadda yadda . please, once more, find where im slagging off the brits etc etc. I find you obviously cant deal with debate and have decided to make up replies for me. ah well.

I'm happy to debate-you're the one beating a hasty retreat.

79cortinaz

im giving up on this debate as you seem to be telling me Im saying things (like brit slagging etc) that I havent been saying. Thats not debating. thats making up things to make yourself look better.

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

a) many have little understanding of whats going on in their own country

I have quite a broad understanding of current affairs in my country-Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and I have less knowledge of it's current affairs though I do usually catch one of the NI news shows at least once a day (moe by accident than design). I dare say many northerners have less knowledge about Ireland than I have about NI.

79cortinaz wrote:

b) few actually care

Well, when 3.5 billion people around the world are too poor to adequately feed themselves I'll think you'll find the small-minded bickerings of certain communities in certain parts of NI are pretty insignificant.

79cortinaz

murphaph wrote:

I have quite a broad understanding of current affairs in my country-Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and I have less knowledge of it's current affairs though I do usually catch one of the NI news shows at least once a day (moe by accident than design). I dare say many northerners have less knowledge about Ireland than I have about NI.

The border between north and south is a political border made for political gains. it is part of ireland. i think this is where we fundamentaly differ. you can talk a long time but you wont change my mind that I, for example am Irish and not british as I was born in Omagh, which is part of ireland.

murphaph wrote:

Well, when 3.5 billion people around the world are too poor to adequately feed themselves I'll think you'll find the small-minded bickerings of certain communities in certain parts of NI are pretty insignificant.

thats the biggest cop-out reply Ive seen so far. avoid the point that was being made ratehr than tackle it. "small minded bickerings" indeed. That statement shows how little you know or care about the north. How do you call yourself irish?

murphaph

79cortinaz wrote:

The border between north and south is a political border made for political gains. it is part of ireland. i think this is where we fundamentaly differ. you can talk a long time but you wont change my mind that I, for example am Irish and not british as I was born in Omagh, which is part of ireland.

Omagh is a town on the island of Ireland, it is not a town in Ireland. It is a town in Northern Ireland. I fully accept that you are Irish at the same time.

79cortinaz wrote:

thats the biggest cop-out reply Ive seen so far. avoid the point that was being made ratehr than tackle it. "small minded bickerings" indeed. That statement shows how little you know or care about the north. How do you call yourself irish?

Well, I don't make a big deal of my nationality because I don't buy all the vitriol that usually goes along with nationalism (any nationalism). I hate to break it to you, but most people down south have moved on since the 1970's and it's mostly to do with a buoyant economy and mortgages to distract people. I'm obviously not alone here-there are plenty of northerners on boards who realise it's high time to move on up there too.

79cortinaz

79cortinaz wrote:

How do you call yourself irish?

Please refrain from crossing the thin line that divides dealing with what one posts and attacking the poster.

On the central point.Of course being born in Omagh means you are Irish if thats what you want to be.
Theres nothing anyone including murphaph can say to take that away.
Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and carry the protection of its passport.
Additionally anyone born in the 6 counties have the extra option of being afforded British citizenship if they want it.

The discussion on what either or both mean is a personal perspective depending on whether you want to go by the legal position or the aspirational position or a combo.