Is there a point to making children learn irish in school anymore?

Gróibhear

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by groovebabe:
Check out http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2001/0809/fro3.htm</font>

Agus?!? An bhfuil aon tuairim agat faoi?

Is spéisiúl é go bfhuil a lán daoine tógtha don smaoineamh go bhfuil an "ceart" ag tuismitheoirí agus páistí an teanga a sheachaint ach nach raibh éinne ar an gclár plé seo (nó ar an gclár plé eile i "Humanities") sásta aitheantas dá laghad a thabhairt dosna pointí a luaigh mise maidir le cearta cainteoirí na mionteangacha.

Tá dualgas ag an rialtas seirbhísí Gaeilge a sholáthar! Agus teastaíonn ón rialtas daoine óga atá líofa go leor sa nGaeilge (agus iad sásta úsáid a bhaint aisti) chun an dualgas sin a chomhlíonadh!

Tá sé ciallmhar go leor, dar liomsa.

---

Gróibhear

---

Níl meas ar an uisce
go dtriomaítear an
tobar.

groovebabe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gróibhear:
Agus?!? An bhfuil aon tuairim agat faoi?
</font>

Tá.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Is spéisiúl é go bfhuil a lán daoine tógtha don smaoineamh go bhfuil an "ceart" ag tuismitheoirí agus páistí an teanga a sheachaint
</font>

Ní mise. Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leis an scoil faoin cheist seo. Sa chéad dul síos, mura mbeidh na páistí sásta fanacht sa rang scoile (faoi mar atá siad anois), cá mbeidh siad? An mbeadh na tuimitheoirí sásta íoc as babysitter doibh?


[This message has been edited by groovebabe (edited 09-08-2001).]

Gróibhear

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by groovebabe:
Aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leis an scoil faoin cheist seo.</font>

Is maith é sin a chloisteáil. Is trua gurb í an cheist seo--sin le rá, ceist na Gaeilge éigeantaí--an t-aon rud amháin a mbíonn á phlé go coiteanta ó thaobh ceist na teangan de.

UhuhUhuh

Was it your letter in the Irish Times?

Gróibhear

An raibh mé chomh feiceálach sin?

---

Was I that obvious?

SantaHoe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Neil3030:
Do you not think of it as an embarresment not being able to speak the language of your country?</font>

Nope, can't say I've ever lost sleep over it to be honest.
I was in honours Irish in secondary, all I can remember now is the odd phrase, and those long lists of dum-duit-do-di charts that I don't quite know what to do with anyway.
Sod it, I'm glad my first language is English.

chernobyl

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Originally posted by Neil3030:
Do you not think of it as an embarresment not being able to speak the language of your country? </font>

Irish is not our national language, English is.
when in school and in every day life, is it more important to be able to converse in English or irish?

In say..Germany, day to day living is the german language yet most germans can speak English, but german is of more importance and its their national langauge and this is because in order to survive in germany, you must be able to speak german, but in ireland you never need know a word of irish, so what is our national language??..english.

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fand:

And the Israelis, who arrived in Israel with only one language really in common - English -
</font>

An bhfuilir cinnte? Ní dóigh liom go raibh Béarla ag Giúdaigh na Rúise nó ag Giúdaigh an Ghearmáin nuair a bhunaíodh stáit an Iosrael. Agus dá bhrí sin, bhí sé níos furasta an Eabhrais a roghnú mar mheán cumarsáide.

Dá mbeadh Francis ag muintir Chorcaí agus Spáinnis ag muintir na Gaillimhe, bheadh sé éasca go leor an Ghaeilge chur chun cinn mar theanga choitianta freisin. Faraoir, is é an Béarla atá acu agus tá tionchar na teanga sin ag dul ó neart go neart ar fud an domhain. Mar sin, measaim gur drochshampla í an Eabhrais.

Is fíu an sraith raidió "Language Steamrollers" (m.s. Béarla, Spáinnis, Sínis), a bhí á chraoladh ar an BBC World Service le déanaí, a chloisteáil má tá suim agat san ábhar seo.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/index.shtml

Are you sure? I doubt if the Jews of Germany or Russia had English when Israel was established. It was easy, therefore, to use Hebrew as a common means of communication.

If Corkonians spoke French, and Galwegians spoke Spanish, then it would be easy to develop Irish as a common language. But they speak English.

The destruction of languages is, unfortunately, continuing apace thoughout the world - the main culprits termed "Language Steamrollers", as used in the recent BBC series.

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by popinfresh:
I'm tellin yez, once you have the accent, you are Irish, Groibhear on the other hand, is not Irish.
</font>

Agus cad faoi foireann sacair na hÉireann?

What about the Irish soccer team then?

Lj

Sod it, I'm glad my first language is English.

Eh, if you only knew how a good part of the world sees your Hiberno-English, you wouldn't be so bold...
I think you should speak only your English, Irish is too good for you.

popinfresh

Well I suppose, even though we don't like to admit it, the Irish team is not Irish, but Liverpool isn't exactly English either is it...But it's organised by the FAI, which is Irish...

SantaHoe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lj:
I think you should speak only your English,</font>

And that I shall.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Irish is too good for you.</font>

No, Irish is too dull and useless for me.
I'd prefer to spend my time learning a practical language like Chinese.
You can keep it.

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by popinfresh:
Well I suppose, even though we don't like to admit it, the Irish team is not Irish, </font>

Dar le do shainmhíniú cúng caol ar Éireannachas.

Only according to your narrow definition of who's Irish and who's not.




[This message has been edited by Doctúir (edited 15-08-2001).]

chernobyl

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doctúir:
Dar le do shainmhíniú cúng caol ar Éireannachas.

Only according to your narrow definition of who's Irish and who's not.


[This message has been edited by Doctúir (edited 15-08-2001).]</font>

Nationality is clean cut, the irish team is indeed foreign.

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:

Nationality is clean cut,
</font>

Ar mhiste leat cur síos ar an náisiúntacht seo (atá chomh soléir agus simplí duitse) a thabairt dúinn?

Would you mind describing this "clean cut" nationality?


the irish team is indeed foreign.


Nach féidir leat an bréagnú inghreamaithe a fheiceáil san abairt thuas?

Can you not see the contradiction inherent in the above sentence?

Gróibhear

B'fhéidir go bhfuil an náisiúntacht sóléir o thaobh na dlí de. Sin le rá, is "Éireannach" é/í saoránach Phoblacht na hÉirinn.

Ach tá an ceart ag an doctúir s'againne gur ceist eile ar fad í ó thaobh an chultúir de. Nach é sin go díreach an rud atáimid ag plé anseo?

Fand

Of course, the question we're really considering is more central: is the rejection of Irish actually the rejection of Irishness?

popinfresh

The reason these "swaars" don't want to learn irish is not because they are ashamed to be irish, but because there is effort envolved in learning a new language. But this does not mean that they are not Irish. They are 21'st century Irish. Anyways it's not like we resemble they way british people speak, we have a unique vocabulary and unique accent. Where else in the world do people use the verb "Stall it" or "me gaff", them swaars are 100% irish regardless of whether or not they speak an extinct language.....

Gróibhear

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by popinfresh:
The reason these "swaars" don't want to learn irish is not because they are ashamed to be irish, but because there is effort envolved in learning a new language. But this does not mean that they are not Irish. They are 21'st century Irish. Anyways it's not like we resemble they way british people speak, we have a unique vocabulary and unique accent. Where else in the world do people use the verb "Stall it" or "me gaff", them swaars are 100% irish regardless of whether or not they speak an extinct language..... </font>

Mo bhrón! Bhí argóint maith go leor curtha i láthair agat gur chaith tú an tseafóid seo faoi mharbhántacht na teangan isteach san áireamh! Is cósúil gur taibhsí iad na 70,000 Éireannach a mbíonn ag baint úsáide as an teanga go laethúil!

You had a swell argument there before you had to go and throw in this codswallop about the language being extinct. I guess that the 70,000 Irish people who use the language daily are nothing but ghosts!

Stephen

70,000 out of the ~4 million on this island isn't a whole lot now is it?

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by popinfresh:
Where else in the world do people use [...] or "me gaff", </font>

An Astráil agus Sasana! Nach bhfaca tú "The Bill" riamh? Ba iomaí tagairt a dhearna DCI Burnside do "that geezer's gaff".

Australia and England! Have you never watched "The Bill"?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

them swaars are 100% irish regardless of whether or not they speak an extinct language.....
</font>

Cad is "swaar" ann? What's a "swaar"?

Fand

Gan teanga gan tír - sure, we speak English with a characteristic accent and vocabulary. We speak a dialect. Big swing.

Kids don't dislike Irish because they're lazy - they're not too lazy to pass their Leaving in all the other subjects they learn.

The rejection of the language is a real rejection of our pride, our nationality, our culture, and it's a sad, sad thing.

entropi

This is probably the only time i will ever speak on this board as i have never really had an interest with Irish since i last did it in second year[ about 6 years ago]. I am blaming the Irish government for not enforcing that Irish should be spoken more freely.

I mean come on ffs, if people ain't getting taught Irish, how can they speak it??? I used to be able to speak a bit when i was small,but now i only know a few words like milsean and siopa and trasna. These won't come in handy if i was stuck!!!! Irish should be used a hell of a lot more in this country, not only the gaeltacht areas but the main cities like Dublin, Cork and Galway.

This is my point:if we don't have our own language, then who are we????

---

That island has freedom written all over it" Sir, that's Cuba. [url="HTTP://WWW.thesimpsons.com"]look at that smithers!![/url]

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gróibhear:
B'fhéidir go bhfuil an náisiúntacht sóléir o thaobh na dlí de. Sin le rá, is "Éireannach" é/í saoránach Phoblacht na hÉirinn.
</font>

Mhuise, níl sí ró-sholéir ó thaobh na dlí de ach an oiread. Mar shampla, aon duine a rugadh roimh 1948 in Éirinn, is féidir leis/léi pasport a fháil ón mBreatain, cé nach raibh an Rí nó an Ríocht Aontaithe luaite sa bhunreacht (1937) ag am sin.

Mar aon leis an méid sin, tá cead ag Ian Paisley agus a chairde pasport Éireannach a fháil chomh maith más mian leo. Ach ní dóigh liom go mbeidh aon deabhadh air!!!

Agus beidh an argóint faoi "ainm ceart" an Stáit á phlé go deo na ndeor (i.e. Éire nó Poblacht na hÉireann nó Ireland nó ROI nó Irish Republic fiú mar a deirtear ar an 'mainland' )

chernobyl

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Doctúir:

Can you not see the contradiction inherent in the above sentence?</font>

well what else do i call the irish teaM.?

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

Gróibhear

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Stephen:
70,000 out of the ~4 million on this island isn't a whole lot now is it?</font>

Níl bheith sé críochnaithe go gcanóidh an bhean uasail ramhar. It's not over 'til the fat lady sings.

Seo ceist daoibh:

How many Macintosh users are there compared to Microsoft users? Should those of us who love the Mac pitch in the towel because some the PC world thinks that the Mac is a "dead" platform?

SantaHoe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gróibhear:
How many Macintosh users are there compared to Microsoft users? Should those of us who love the Mac pitch in the towel because some the PC world thinks that the Mac is a "dead" platform?</font>

No, they should both ditch their respective OS'es and install Linux.
You'll hear the Mac crowd argue that Mac's are better for DTP and video editing etc.

I've yet to hear a similar logical argument put forward as to why Irish is supposed to be so important to us.
All I keep hearing (reading), is the culture/history argument... if that's your mindset, then why don't we force every young student in the country to learn Irish dancing? - It'd be more useful I think.
And while we're at it - we'll make a grade C in Irish dancing the minimum entry requirement for every University in the country.

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:

well what else do i call the irish teaM.?
</font>

N'fheadar. Tusa a dúirt gurb eachtrannaigh iad.

Dunno. You're the one who called them foreign. I'm still waiting for your description of "clean cut" nationality btw.

chernobyl

ok then, if your born in ireland, then your irish.
if you were not born here then your not irish.

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

chernobyl

born on a ferry???

Thats a dumb analogy, and the key thing being

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"born in the irish sea"</font>

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
born on a ferry???

Thats a dumb analogy, and the key thing being
"born in the irish sea"
</font>

The Irish Sea is only a name. Irish territorial waters do not extend over all of the Irish Sea. The limit is 10 miles iirc.

If it worries you that much, change the example to the middle of the Atlantic in international waters. Or born in Boston. Or Arundi Burundi. The point still holds.


[This message has been edited by Doctúir (edited 18-08-2001).]

chernobyl

yawn...this argument makes me tired.

ok, you win.
finished.

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
yawn...this argument makes me tired.

ok, you win.
finished.
</font>

Codladh sámh!!

chernobyl

and he gloats.
ouch.

---

Ashley Lyn

Ashley Lyn Cafagna

popinfresh

Ok, here's an easy way to put it, if you had a conversation with someone for 5 minutes, you would know what nationality they were.
As for the Irish thing, it's not like we would benefit if we all spoke Irish. And how come no other countrys are picked on for speaking english??

Doctúir

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chernobyl:
ok then, if your born in ireland, then your irish.
if you were not born here then your not irish.
</font>

Right, so if you were born in Ireland and then you and your parents emigrate to Khartoum and spend the rest of your life there, you're Irish. Conversely, if you were born on the ferry in the middle of the Irish Sea on the way from Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire, and though you live your entire life in Ireland, you're not Irish. Makes perfect sense.

I'm not being argumentative just for the sake of it. The point I'm trying to make is that nationality is a nebulous concept at the best of times, and laying down hard and fast rules is rarely a good idea.

[This message has been edited by Doctúir (edited 18-08-2001).]

adamhh232606

.

miss5

I agree I think it should be an option after junior cert, If you don't enjoy
it, It can be an incredibly difficult subject. Of course there is the cultural
element but I think it should be a personal choice.

Nuggles

Then maths should be an option. And so should english. So should every subject. People should just got on with it. If you give kids options to do something or not to do it, the majority go for not doing it.

Doing Irish in school won't kill you, do you any harm. I think the education system has gotten much to soft. Much more worries about not offending children than teaching them anything.

Wow! a nine year old thread, would have been better off starting a new one!