Crazy standards of Irish Men!

fly_agaric

taconnol wrote:

IN my opinion (note the stress), sexism, like other forms of discrimination are about attitudes and behavior that leads from these attitudes. Rape is a crime mainly perpetrated by men against women. I consider that a man that is capable of raping a women has to have a certain attitude. He has to have a certain attitude towards women in order to behave in that way.

But isn't that a kind of slippery slope. I mean there's a big difference between sexism in society and the depth of hatred that would cause a man to rape a woman. Can they be put on the same kind of continuum?

Anyway - about rape and sexism:
Could I suggest a thought experiment.
What if we had the perfectly equal society. Or even go further.
Society is still 50/50 men/women approx. but women hold all the top jobs, control the wealth etc. Maybe the numbers of rapes would be reduced but I'd bet that most of the raping going on would still be being done by men, and yet could you say that such a society was "sexist" toward women?

If we were to compare a totally patriarchal country with one where men and women are more equal - I'm sure men are still the ones doing most of the rapes (even if the number of rapes is less - although this actually suggests not [but stats may be dodgy]:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap&b_map=1.)

I have a feeling that only way to create a society where rape is equally likely for both men and women, and each is equally likely to commit the crime would be to drastically reduce the numbers of men - which seems a non-runner at present. Whadaya think?

Macha

Deleted User wrote:

Its only impossible if you view the more traditional views of how a woman was as being somehow wrong. The women of the 60's while not receiving the same chances and equality as men, were still strong women, that retained the ability to be women. Its only since the feminist movement has gained such force that being a "lady" is a bad thing.

Well see I dont agree with you there. The women in the 60's merely redefined themselves in a more positive light but they still limited themselves. For example, instead of being 'irrational' they were 'intuitive'. But it's 2 sides of the same coin. For me, as ive stated before, it's all about choice. If a woman chooses to fill the traditional role of being a stay-at-home mum then great.

But maybe I want to choose something else. You can have your preconcieved ideas about femininity but accept what they are - preconcieved ideas that may or may not have anything to do with any woman that you meet nowadays. I'm stronger than some guys I know. I hate clothes shopping. I love going to watch (and play) rugby matches. I dont like it when my boyfriend tries to carry my suitcase for me. Does this make me less feminine? Well in the traditional sense, yes but in my mind no.

And the opposite applies for men. By defining what is feminine, we are, inevitably, defining what is masculine. If a man loves clothes is he less masculine, etc etc. Again, we all have our notions of what is feminine but we have to realise what they are- preconceptions!

Anyone who has studied sociology (poor sods) will know that in the mainstream thought of the discipline, a disctinction is made between sex and gender. The sex of a person is normally clear: male/female. But a person is taught their gender as they grow.

Ill never forget my brother gettting this cool (blue) "Boy's handbook" that was full of cool stuff like how to make kites & light fires (hey I was 7 it was cool). SO I begged my parents for the girl's version. It was pink. It was full of information regarding the calorie content of different food and toning exercises. That for me is gender conditioning. (Hey it worked: Im constantly trying to loose weight, even tho medically Im closer to underweight than overweight)

I think that in todays (dare I say it...?) post modern society generalisations about any group of people, be it men, women, blacks, irish etc really are becoming less and less valid and therefore less and less useful.

fly_agaric wrote:

But isn't that a kind of slippery slope. I mean there's a big difference between sexism in society and the depth of hatred that would cause a man to rape a woman. Can they be put on the same kind of continuum?

Anyway - about rape and sexism:
Could I suggest a thought experiment.
What if we had the perfectly equal society. Or even go further.
Society is still 50/50 men/women approx. but women hold all the top jobs, control the wealth etc. Maybe the numbers of rapes would be reduced but I'd bet that most of the raping going on would still be being done by men, and yet could you say that such a society was "sexist" toward women?

If we were to compare a totally patriarchal country with one where men and women are more equal - I'm sure men are still the ones doing most of the rapes (even if the number of rapes is less - although this actually suggests not [but stats may be dodgy]:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap&b_map=1.)

I have a feeling that only way to create a society where rape is equally likely for both men and women, and each is equally likely to commit the crime would be to drastically reduce the numbers of men - which seems a non-runner at present. Whadaya think?

Sadly I think you're right. Maybe more men rape women than vice versa because it's the natural way of things. Wishful thinking on my part that maybe if we changed society, this fact could be changed...

Zulu

taconnol wrote:

Wishful thinking on my part that maybe if we changed society, this fact could be changed...

Indeed it is wishfull thinking. Men are more likely to commit murder/rape than women because they are naturally more aggressive, and this is due to our make up. No amount of social engineering is going to change that. It's not a sexism issue.

Well see I dont agree with you there. The women in the 60's merely redefined themselves in a more positive light but they still limited themselves. For example, instead of being 'irrational' they were 'intuitive'. But it's 2 sides of the same coin. For me, as ive stated before, it's all about choice. If a woman chooses to fill the traditional role of being a stay-at-home mum then great.

But maybe I want to choose something else. You can have your preconcieved ideas about femininity but accept what they are - preconcieved ideas that may or may not have anything to do with any woman that you meet nowadays. I'm stronger than some guys I know. I hate clothes shopping. I love going to watch (and play) rugby matches. I dont like it when my boyfriend tries to carry my suitcase for me. Does this make me less feminine? Well in the traditional sense, yes but in my mind no.

And the opposite applies for men. By defining what is feminine, we are, inevitably, defining what is masculine. If a man loves clothes is he less masculine, etc etc. Again, we all have our notions of what is feminine but we have to realise what they are- preconceptions!

And this is the problem I see. You're defining being feminine or masculine by what a person does. I definite it by the way a person acts. The qualities that a person has as part of their sex. A feminine woman retains the courtesy, grace, charm, and intelligence that women have had since society began. Just as a masculine will have a confidence, charm, intelligence, and their own courtesy.

You see roles, I see manners. When I say "traditional", you automatically think I'm talking about women in the kitchen, or some other role. I'm not. I believe in Equality of the sexes. Its here.

But I also see that men and women are two different sexes. We're already equal there. However, many feminist groups seem to want lose their femininity and take on masculine attributes, which are based on the difference in the sexes, rather than equality.

As for your own example, no it doesn't make you any less feminine to do all that. But the way you hold yourself, whether you spit in the street (which I'd think bad of a guy doing aswell), whether you curse like a sailor, whether you're aggressive to the point of picking fights, etc.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but thats how I see feimininity, and its one of the major differences between Irish women and many countries on the continent. They're secure in acting like women, without believing that they have to compete or even become men. They don't necessarily believe that by acting with the some of the more traditional values, will make them any less equal.

Anyone who has studied sociology (poor sods) will know that in the mainstream thought of the discipline, a disctinction is made between sex and gender. The sex of a person is normally clear: male/female. But a person is taught their gender as they grow.

Ill never forget my brother gettting this cool (blue) "Boy's handbook" that was full of cool stuff like how to make kites & light fires (hey I was 7 it was cool). SO I begged my parents for the girl's version. It was pink. It was full of information regarding the calorie content of different food and toning exercises. That for me is gender conditioning. (Hey it worked: Im constantly trying to loose weight, even tho medically Im closer to underweight than overweight)

Interesting. Just curious, but was your mother responsible for raising the children?