Crazy standards of Irish Men!

Zulu · 30-11-2005 6:48pm

Deleted User wrote:

Lol. I must be out of practice in Boards. In one sentence Zulu has summed up everything I was trying to say. Cheers

Any time, old boy!

Zulu · 30-11-2005 6:51pm

QualderWahl wrote:

I really question just how many people posting on this thread have actually lived abroad for any substantial period of time. If you had, you would realise that the difference between Irish women and continental European women is negligible. There are many beautiful Irish girls...

It is very disappointing to hear Irish men slagging off Irish girls in this manner. The girls here are really not that different to those on the continent, if anything Irish women are probably slightly better craic...

Hear, hear. I still maintain the Irish women are amonst the best looking. (and to me the most attractive). For the record, I've lived in England, Sweden, France, America, Austrailia, New Zealand, Fiji... ...and went on holidays in a bundle of other places.

30-11-2005 6:57pm

QualderWahl wrote:

It is very disappointing to hear Irish men slagging off Irish girls in this manner. The girls here are really not that different to those on the continent, if anything Irish women are probably slightly better craic and on for having a laugh.

For you maybe, but we're not saying that they can't be good fun. I, at least, am saying that physically and mentally foreign women tend to be more balanced, and are more comfortable at being a "lady" (without losing any equality status). Now sure, if you want a woman with mannish qualities, you're sorted in Ireland.

QualderWahl wrote:

Seriously folks, you need to get over yourselves and grow up a little. I thought that we Irish had finally dispensed with the national inferiority complex but evidently some of you are intent on perpetuating the myth that foreigners are somehow "better" than us. Please excuse the psychobabble but I suggest that you review your own self esteem issues before you begin projecting feelings of unworthiness on to other Irish people, particularly Irish women.

Lol. Perhaps you should grow up a little bit aswell. People are posting their opinions here. Just as you are. To demean their opinions of Irish women, puts you in the very section you're accusing them of. You're welcome to disagree, since I doubt anyone will say you've got self-esteem problems because you're willing to accept their bull****.

AARRRGH · 30-11-2005 7:00pm

Deleted User wrote:

For you maybe, but we're not saying that they can't be good fun. I, at least, am saying that physically and mentally foreign women tend to be more balanced, and are more comfortable at being a "lady" (without losing any equality status). Now sure, if you want a woman with mannish qualities, you're sorted in Ireland.

klaz, I agree 100%.

QualderWahl · 30-11-2005 7:01pm

dublindude wrote:

Nonsense! So only the good looking foreign girls come to Ireland?

Both Irish men and women are famous for being probably the worst looking people in Europe. Loads of foreign people have told me Irish people are just not good looking. Foreign women think Irish girls are fat, foreign women think Irish men are not good looking. Yes, maybe they think we have great personalities, but trying to fool yourself by saying Irish people are good looking is ludicris! (sp?)

Have you ever live abroad for any period of time ? Let's analyse your little diatribe....

- "Loads of foreign people have told me"
- "Foreign women think Irish girls"
foreign women think Irish men.."

This is all conjecture on the part of "foreign" people. You are prepared to accept the opinions of a few others without having done the research yourself. There are plently of unattractive people in continental Europe, you just need to spend a little time there to see that. But no it must be true that we are all ugly if "foreign people" "told" you so and they also "think" it is the case. Perhaps your ready acceptance of the foreign opinion suggests an inherent inferiority complex in yourself ?

You also pose the question if only good looking foreign girls come to Ireland. Take a look at the demographic immigrating here from continental Europe. They tend to be young, educated and cosmpolitan types i.e. exactly the same types of young women readily available on the campuses of UCD, Trinty, DCU etc....i.e negligible difference.

From my perspective, your ill thought out little rant is LUDICROUS.

AARRRGH · 30-11-2005 7:04pm

QualderWahl wrote:

You are prepared to accept the opinions of a few others without having done the research yourself...There are plently of unattractive people in continental Europe...But no it must be true that we are all ugly if "foreign people" "told" you so and they also "think" it is the case...Perhaps your ready acceptance of the foreign opinion suggests an inherent inferiority complex in yourself ?

From my perspective, your ill thought out little rant is LUDICROUS.

LOL!!

What the **** are you talking about???

How can you possibly think I was saying Irish women are unattractive because foreign people say so?

Mental...

I really don't know how to answer such a ridiculous post...

Macha · 30-11-2005 7:13pm

Deleted User wrote:

I've gotten my nails done once. Mainly at the request of a female friend. I wouldn't do it normally. But then most Irish women don't either. But on the other hand, I have a fair number of foreign female friends who will get their nails done at least once a month. They view going out in public without looking their best as being the worst thing possible. And know what? They do this for themselves, not to please men.

Fair enough if they want to do it but it shouldnt be expected. I lived in Paris for a year and the looks I got just because I was running down to the Laundromat without wearing make-up! Crazy.

Deleted User wrote:

But I think you're still missing the point. Irish women (again not all) expect men to treat them like princesses. They expect to be treated well. They expect men to worship them. They expect men to pay for drinks/dinner. Even when they don't deserve it either on a physical or a personality basis. There's very few men that I know that want the same. Most men would prefer a bit more respect.

Ok I didnt know that. I dont expect my boyfriend to do all that stuff. In fact, I think I've paid for more dinners than he has.

Deleted User wrote:

Agreed. It is. But you're mistaking the fact, that alot of advertising that shows women is actually geared towards women. Traditionally, and even to modern day, its women that organise the shopping for the family. With my parents, my mum shops and my dad cooks. Same with my Sister and her Husband. So the advertisements that you see are geared for both sexes. But if you watch much TV you will notice that there's alot of advertisements for female products, which feature....well, beautiful women.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. For me the issue isnt really who the advertisement is aimed at (I admit I was the one who brought that point up). The mere fact that there are more beautiful women in the media than men results in more pressure on women. I could go on about the statistics of eating disorders etc.. It's all common knowledge.

Deleted User wrote:

I've re-written this a few times because I just can't get the right way of expressing it. I would ask what YOU think is the difference between a man and a woman?

Sexism? Why? Because I like women that look and act like women?

Docility/Timidity? Nope. You're taking the aspect of equality too far. When I look at a woman I don't want a man with a female body. Sex is fine all in all, but a womans mind is different than a man's. Naturally. But now women seem to believe you're being sexist if you want a woman to be a woman. Are you being sexist if you say you want a man to act like a man? Hardly. Its a statement of interest.

Ok I get what you mean now. Fair enough. No - not being sexist at all.

Deleted User wrote:

You want equality? You already have it. Equality doesn't mean that you turn into men

This society is too stuck on giving women equality, when it can't face the fact that women actually have it. If you want a job similiar to mine, you can get it. If you want similiar wages, you'll get it. Do you wnt access to any club? you have it. The law is there in place to protect your equality. Will you fight for the same equality that men deserve in regards to parenting, and child custody? Somehow I doubt it.

Ok we've come a long way but to say that women in today's society have equality is ludicrous! I could quote hundreds of stats but ill probably bore everyone to death. Yes we legally have equality but is that the reality? Nope. But that issue is for a different thread. Ill just mention child care, rape stats and ask you to count how many female CEOS there are in this country.

To answer your question that you oh so kindly answered as well, the answer is yes. Women who want equality want just that and the bitches out there who just want to turn the tables give the rest of us a bad name.

Anywho I'll step down now.;)

QualderWahl · 30-11-2005 7:14pm

That's what your last post seems to imply.

By the way, we must know different "foreign" people because the ones I know haven't been complaining about the alleged ugliness of the Irish. I know three German girls from my old University in Germany living with Irish lads. I must ask them how they managed to get over their repulsion of their lack of aesthetic appeal...:rolleyes:

QualderWahl · 30-11-2005 8:25pm

Deleted User wrote:

Lol. Perhaps you should grow up a little bit aswell. People are posting their opinions here. Just as you are. To demean their opinions of Irish women, puts you in the very section you're accusing them of. You're welcome to disagree, since I doubt anyone will say you've got self-esteem problems because you're willing to accept their bull****.

lol Nice one. You turned the tables on that one neatly. Maybe I am willing to cut Irish women a bit of slack and accept their bull**** more than others on this thread. In my opinion, they are worth it. I guess I am shocked at the level of antipathy some people have towards Irish women. It's not an opinion you hear voiced much in real life.

Anyway, all women (including those of the Irish variety) are great

30-11-2005 8:27pm

Do you know how many foreign men tell me that it is very hard to pull Irish girls? Maybe it is just the Irish as a whole. We are too uptight about who we date, both men and women.

Victor · 30-11-2005 11:49pm

Captain Trips wrote:

The above observations are why irish men find continental european women more attractive. It's stinkingly obvious within a few seconds on whether someone takes care of themselves or not. You meet what may be an average Polish girl, but her skin looks radiant compared to the tired smoked-out/kebabed-up/drunk skin of the 28 year old equivalent Irish girl.

Actually, almost to the woman, I think continental women have one quality that many Irish women don't have - they are pleasent.*

* Terms and conditions apply. Limited offer for first month of relationship only.

Sleepy · 01-12-2005 12:57am

taconnol wrote:

Ok we've come a long way but to say that women in today's society have equality is ludicrous! I could quote hundreds of stats but ill probably bore everyone to death. Yes we legally have equality but is that the reality? Nope. But that issue is for a different thread.

I'm sorry, I just can't let that go.

Child Care - are you suggesting that this is an issue which only affects women? The fact that you even bring up the topic as a female issue demonstrates that you're more sexist than half the men in this country.

Rape Stats - how is a vulgar and dispicable crime considered sexism? Would you be happy if as many men were being raped as women?

And finally the old Feminista cry about the diminutive percentage of female CEO's in this country. Look at the average age of a CEO in Ireland, they're mainly in their 50's. These people are a generation ahead of the majority of the Boards.ie posters (two ahead of some of the younger posters). This was the generation my mother grew up in and back then most women chose to be stay at home parents.

Even take the CEO's in this country that are under the age of 40, you'll find less women than men, sure, but a higher ratio than the total comparison. Ever consider that this could be largely down to the fact that in general men tend to be more agressive and career-minded than women? Many women choose to put their careers on hold to raise their children (and thank god they do, every single social study indicates that children are better off when one of their parents [note I'm not saying their mother] stays at home for their formative years), many others choose to cut back their work commitments in order to simply spend more time with their children. You'll also find that more women tend to go for positions in areas like teaching, nursing, NGO's, Law (in recent years) than men do. None of these professions offer one the chance to become a CEO.

Women in this country have equality. They don't always choose to express it the ways that their feminista sisters choose to measure it though. I'm sure you could find a number of areas where social discrimination exists against women but since women make up the majority of this society (by 1% of total population, rising if you only take in those of voting age), women must accept at least as much blame for this as men. I could equally point out a number of ways in which men are discriminated against: family law and paternity rights, divorce settlements, etc.

Civilian_Target · 01-12-2005 2:07am

They have better than equality, damnit. Think I'm entitled to 6 months (+ sick leave) off every time I get another child, hell no!

Zulu · 01-12-2005 11:22am

taconnol wrote:

Ok we've come a long way but to say that women in today's society have equality is ludicrous! I could quote hundreds of stats but ill probably bore everyone to death. Yes we legally have equality but is that the reality? Nope. But that issue is for a different thread. Ill just mention child care, rape stats and ask you to count how many female CEOS there are in this country.
Anywho I'll step down now.;)

Rape!?! CEO's!?! you're clutching at straws - aside from the generational issue which was pointed out - men, on average, work 6 hours overtime more than women per week, perhaps promotions are earned on merit? You raise the point of child care - do you know how much perantal leave a father is entitled to? :rolleyes:

To be honest, hiding behind the mistakes made by a previous generation is pathetic. My advice to you would be: dust the chips off your sholder, and get on with life.

LegacyUser · 01-12-2005 11:50am

well said zulu, feckin femenists!

01-12-2005 11:53am

To be honest, hiding behind the mistakes made by a previous generation is pathetic. My advice to you would be: dust the chips off your sholder, and get on with life.

Exactly. Which is a prime example of one of the issues I have about irish women. They rave about equality, discrimination etc, and refuse to believe that they have as much or rather more rights than men. Its like they want the benefits of traditional views while seeking the benefits of equality issues, whilst complaining the whole way.... Not all irish women are like this, but a good % of those I meet fall into this category.

LegacyUser · 01-12-2005 12:01pm

and they get cheaper car insurance!

Macha · 01-12-2005 12:10pm

Sleepy wrote:

Child Care - are you suggesting that this is an issue which only affects women? The fact that you even bring up the topic as a female issue demonstrates that you're more sexist than half the men in this country

No I am not! Dont put words in my mouth. The lack of child care in this country affects both men and women but it affects women more directly, particulary if you take into consideration the fact that the number of single mother families is higher than that of single fathers. Of course all of this is changing, Im just saying we havent got there yet!

Sleepy wrote:

Rape Stats - how is a vulgar and dispicable crime considered sexism? Would you be happy if as many men were being raped as women?

:rolleyes: Yes Yes. That's exactly what Im saying. Yeesh. Talk about taking things the wrong way. It is a fact that 98% of victims of sexual crime in this country are female. Now replace 'female' with 'black'. Wow that stat would make people go crazy. Racism would be shouted from the roof tops. But women. Well jeez that isnt a sign of sexism at all.

Come ON. Rape is not just like any other violent crime. It is, on the whole, crime commited by men against women. You just cant deny it. Rape is about one person, usually a man exerting his will and forcing a woman to sumbit to him sexually. In my opinion, rape is a symptom of gender inequality in a society. That's why I brought that up.

Sleepy wrote:

And finally the old Feminista cry about the diminutive percentage of female CEO's in this country. Look at the average age of a CEO in Ireland, they're mainly in their 50's. These people are a generation ahead of the majority of the Boards.ie posters (two ahead of some of the younger posters). This was the generation my mother grew up in and back then most women chose to be stay at home parents.

Even take the CEO's in this country that are under the age of 40, you'll find less women than men, sure, but a higher ratio than the total comparison. Ever consider that this could be largely down to the fact that in general men tend to be more agressive and career-minded than women? Many women choose to put their careers on hold to raise their children (and thank god they do, every single social study indicates that children are better off when one of their parents [note I'm not saying their mother] stays at home for their formative years), many others choose to cut back their work commitments in order to simply spend more time with their children. You'll also find that more women tend to go for positions in areas like teaching, nursing, NGO's, Law (in recent years) than men do. None of these professions offer one the chance to become a CEO.

I couldnt agree more. Again, I am just saying that we still have some way to go.Perhaps CEO was was the wrong example. I should have said person at the top of their career.

Sleepy wrote:

Women in this country have equality. They don't always choose to express it the ways that their feminista sisters choose to measure it though. I'm sure you could find a number of areas where social discrimination exists against women but since women make up the majority of this society (by 1% of total population, rising if you only take in those of voting age), women must accept at least as much blame for this as men. I could equally point out a number of ways in which men are discriminated against: family law and paternity rights, divorce settlements, etc.

Yes I agree here too. I just chose the above three examples because I was in a rush. My bad, as the yanks say.

And Zulu I dont have a chip on my shoulder, Im just expressing my opinions that are based on my experiences. Forgive me if I ignore your advice on how to live my life. I think I've got that one covered

QualderWahl · 01-12-2005 12:57pm

Victor wrote:

Actually, almost to the woman, I think continental women have one quality that many Irish women don't have - they are pleasent.*

* Terms and conditions apply. Limited offer for first month of relationship only.

That confirms it. You definitely have never spent any time on the continent if you believe to a woman they are pleasant. Trust me, after you have been screamed at by a Swiss woman in the bank becuase you can't understand her dialect of German, you'll soon be singing a different tune !

Zulu · 01-12-2005 1:40pm

taconnol wrote:

No I am not! Dont put words in my mouth. The lack of child care in this country affects both men and women but it affects women more directly...

Why, because there are more single mothers than single fathers? Therefore it's sexist?? I would have taught equality wasn't about numbers? I would have taught equality was about equal oppertunities/rights etc.. Do you care to explain why, because it affects a larger number of women, it sexist?

taconnol wrote:

:rolleyes: Yes Yes. That's exactly what Im saying. Yeesh. Talk about taking things the wrong way. It is a fact that 98% of victims of sexual crime in this country are female. Now replace 'female' with 'black'. Wow that stat would make people go crazy. Racism would be shouted from the roof tops. But women. Well jeez that isnt a sign of sexism at all.

Firstly - where did you pull that "98%" figure from? Would you care to provide proof? Secondly - did you stop to think for a moment that men are far less likely to report a rape than women are? Evidently not. How you can link rape to sexism is incrediable. :rolleyes: ...and as for the racism comment, give us a rest will you.

taconnol wrote:

Come ON. Rape is not just like any other violent crime. It is, on the whole, crime commited by men against women. You just cant deny it. Rape is about one person, usually a man exerting his will and forcing a woman to sumbit to him sexually. In my opinion, rape is a symptom of gender inequality in a society. That's why I brought that up.

In my opinion its a crime, like murder, which is commited by evil people for various reasons. It has nothing to do with "gender inequality in a society", and I'd be amased if that was ever brought up in any court case linked to a rape case.

taconnol wrote:

And Zulu I dont have a chip on my shoulder, Im just expressing my opinions that are based on my experiences. Forgive me if I ignore your advice on how to live my life. I think I've got that one covered

Well you're comming across like a very bitter person

Nedermeyer · 01-12-2005 1:48pm

scobysnacks wrote:

Is it my imagination or do Irish guys have ridiculously high standards?

I went on a blind date with a friend of a friend last week. We had been emailing for some time, we had similar interests and had the same sense of humour so technically we should have been a great match. With the date we also appeared to be having a great time. He was cute enough but not exactly Brad Pitt. I'm no supermodel but not exactly what you would call plain either. I figured he would be up for at least a kiss but nothing happened. The feedback I got from my friend that he didn't fancy me. I know that everyone has different ideas of what they find attractive but I haven't been with an Irish guy in nearly 7 years and I have lived here almost all of that time!

I go for months on end without as much as a kiss and when I get one the guys are never Irish (and I don't hang out in Temple Bar). Anytime I go aboard I get loads of attention from guys and pull stunning ones, the type that I wouldn't even get a look in from here.

What's the deal with Irish guys -do they think their gods or something?

That was how this thread started. Tangent of the month?

01-12-2005 1:55pm

taconnol wrote:

I couldnt agree more. Again, I am just saying that we still have some way to go.Perhaps CEO was was the wrong example. I should have said person at the top of their career.

Zulu has covered your points better than I could have, but I'm curious about this last remark of yours.

You see, with the law protecting the rights of women in the work place, there is equality. And with that equality comes the basis that to become a CEO or the top of their career requires alot more dedication that you'd expect. Many women believe that they should, or rather they deserve becoming the top of their career without making the same sacrifices, or gambles that the men in those positions have made. And now women are trading the option of having family for the dedication and interest in becoming the top of their career. That is equality. You have to live by the same restrictions that men do.

I don't expect to become a CEO or the top of my field. Simply because I'm not prepared to sacrifice my social life, and I treasure my free time too much. So you're in the same boat as us now.

Zulu · 01-12-2005 2:27pm

Nedermeyer wrote:

That was how this thread started. Tangent of the month?

True, true.

01-12-2005 2:30pm

taconnol wrote:

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. For me the issue isnt really who the advertisement is aimed at (I admit I was the one who brought that point up). The mere fact that there are more beautiful women in the media than men results in more pressure on women. I could go on about the statistics of eating disorders etc.. It's all common knowledge.

Just getting back to this for a second. You continue to miss the point. Both men and women work in the advertising industry. Women also create the advertisments that are on TV, Magazines etc. So you seem to be missing the obvious point that the pressures women feel about beauty are actually pushed upon them by other women. Not Men. Look at the women magazines, and you'll see that the editors and writers are women. They chose whats shown to the public, and in most cases, it will be women that buy the magazines.

So rather than blaming men for these pressures perhaps you should look at your own sex for answers?

taconnol wrote:

Ok we've come a long way but to say that women in today's society have equality is ludicrous! I could quote hundreds of stats but ill probably bore everyone to death. Yes we legally have equality but is that the reality? Nope. But that issue is for a different thread. Ill just mention child care, rape stats and ask you to count how many female CEOS there are in this country.

The problem isn't that you HAVE equality. The problem is that you want all the consequences of those benefits now. You want a high number of female CEO's without them earning the disctinction. Women have the same or better chances, that men have to achieve success in their careers. They just need to work for it (which takes time), just like men have been doing.

I would ask what YOU think is the difference between a man and a woman?

Simply because I think many Irish women have problems distinguishing the difference, and try to become men....

Macha · 01-12-2005 4:59pm

Zulu wrote:

Why, because there are more single mothers than single fathers? Therefore it's sexist?? I would have taught equality wasn't about numbers? I would have taught equality was about equal oppertunities/rights etc.. Do you care to explain why, because it affects a larger number of women, it sexist?

Firstly - where did you pull that "98%" figure from? Would you care to provide proof? Secondly - did you stop to think for a moment that men are far less likely to report a rape than women are? Evidently not. How you can link rape to sexism is incrediable.

Well I just have to straight disagree with you there. Sexism and other forms of discrimination are about numbers in so far is that is the only reliable way we have of measuring them. It's about attitudes in society which translate themselves into numbers and statistics.

I think that 'larger number of women' is an understatement. I did Psychology in university and they gave us that figure of 98%. In relation to your point of men not being as likely to report a rape, I accept what you say but this still does not go anywhere near making up the vast disparity between the numbers of men and women being raped.

Zulu wrote:

In my opinion its a crime, like murder, which is commited by evil people for various reasons. It has nothing to do with "gender inequality in a society", and I'd be amased if that was ever brought up in any court case linked to a rape case.

It may not have been brought up in a court case but that has nothing to do with whether my opinion is valid or not.

Deleted User wrote:

Just getting back to this for a second. You continue to miss the point. Both men and women work in the advertising industry. Women also create the advertisments that are on TV, Magazines etc. So you seem to be missing the obvious point that the pressures women feel about beauty are actually pushed upon them by other women. Not Men. Look at the women magazines, and you'll see that the editors and writers are women. They chose whats shown to the public, and in most cases, it will be women that buy the magazines.

So rather than blaming men for these pressures perhaps you should look at your own sex for answers?

I dont think I have every blamed anyone in particular so far in my threads. I have always made reference to 'society' as a whole. And as women make up just over half the population then they too are to blame. Not sticking it all on men by any stretch of the imagination!

You're dead right when you say that a lot of women are involved in the creation of those types of magazines. And many of the women who buy them are, in my mind, not helping. Firstly because they buy the magazine, which in turn encourages the companies to keep going. And secondly they often internalise these ideas and so become another wannabe barbie doll.

Here's a little anecdote to try and illustrate what I mean: I have a friend who buys these magazines. She is quite underweight and spends a disproportionate amount of time on her appearance. Once I got a sore throat and her reaction was to say 'Cool! That means you wont be able to eat and you'll lose some weight!'. Words failed me...(no smart comments about how maybe I did need to lose weight please

)

Deleted User wrote:

The problem isn't that you HAVE equality. The problem is that you want all the consequences of those benefits now. You want a high number of female CEO's without them earning the disctinction. Women have the same or better chances, that men have to achieve success in their careers. They just need to work for it (which takes time), just like men have been doing.

An interesting point. I think you've actually changed my mind to agree with you! Although I will stick to my point re a lack of affordable child care making it harder for a women to return to the work force. I do really believe there is a stigma attached to mothers in the work place.

Deleted User wrote:

I would ask what YOU think is the difference between a man and a woman?

Simply because I think many Irish women have problems distinguishing the difference, and try to become men....

I understand why you asked that question but it is just impossible to answer. The whole point of feminism was to decontruct the assumptions surrounding women that a male dominated society had forced on them. For me to then turn around and try and pigeon-hole women (and men) would bring me back 200 years.

Im not bitter, dont mean to come across that way at all

IN fact I'm very happy to be living in Ireland because I think Irish men are brilliant in their attitude to women compared to other countries I've lived in

01-12-2005 6:30pm

taconnol wrote:

I dont think I have every blamed anyone in particular so far in my threads. I have always made reference to 'society' as a whole. And as women make up just over half the population then they too are to blame. Not sticking it all on men by any stretch of the imagination!

My apologies, you didn't actually blame anyone in this thread.

taconnol wrote:

You're dead right when you say that a lot of women are involved in the creation of those types of magazines. And many of the women who buy them are, in my mind, not helping. Firstly because they buy the magazine, which in turn encourages the companies to keep going. And secondly they often internalise these ideas and so become another wannabe barbie doll.

Yup, and thats my point. For the most part male advertisers will target men with, yes, beautiful women (lynx, shower gels, cars etc), but then thats because sex sells. However I would hazard a guess that there's actually more advertising on TV thats aimed at women, than those aimed at men. Mostly skin products, dietary/breakfast foods (Special K which is one of my fav ads, since those red shorts are wonderful), female hygiene (tampons). Even the ads for cleaning products generally show a man acting stupid like "Mister Muscle", which is hardly targeted towards men.

So if you really want to know where the majority of pressure regarding looks, body, clothes etc comes from, I'd say its mostly comes from women....

taconnol wrote:

An interesting point. I think you've actually changed my mind to agree with you! Although I will stick to my point re a lack of affordable child care making it harder for a women to return to the work force. I do really believe there is a stigma attached to mothers in the work place.

Well regarding child care, its more a lack of funding in that department, than an actual sexist or unequality issue. Across the board there's areas like this that affect both men and women, since we're not exactly a rich country despite the boom we're going through.

As for mothers in the work place, there may be. But alot of that stigma is generated by women themselves. If women could work normally while being mothers there wouldn't be an issue, since many can do just that. However, there are a large number of mothers that believe that they're entitled to more benefits because they are mothers. So much for their wish for equality.........

taconnol wrote:

I understand why you asked that question but it is just impossible to answer.

Its only impossible if you view the more traditional views of how a woman was as being somehow wrong. The women of the 60's while not receiving the same chances and equality as men, were still strong women, that retained the ability to be women. Its only since the feminist movement has gained such force that being a "lady" is a bad thing.

taconnol wrote:

The whole point of feminism was to decontruct the assumptions surrounding women that a male dominated society had forced on them. For me to then turn around and try and pigeon-hole women (and men) would bring me back 200 years.

And here you're falling into the trap that many feminists have laid for their own sex. Everything that a woman experienced was because it was forced on them by a male-dominated society. Only sometimes. In many cases, it was women themselves who enjoyed their lives without the responsibilites of being equal that placed these assumptions on women. Also women themselves created alot of the ways in which men interact with women in social settings.

its just too easy to place all the blame on a male dominated society, when women held alot of power themselves behind the scenes.

But then we've gone way off topic.

Sleepy · 01-12-2005 7:21pm

taconnol - how do you see rape as "a symptom of gender inequality in a society"?

It's a crime which, in the vast majority of cases, is perpetrated against women you'll find very little disagreement on that. How that converts to being a symptom of gender inequality is beyond me. If rape were permissable by law, or if rapists escaped with very light sentences, I could see this as a form of inequality.

For comparison, most assaults in this country are perpetrated against men. A scumbag looking for a fight will target another (usually weaker or more docile) male. Does this mean that he's being sexist in choosing his targets?

Or change the scenario to a female assaulting another member of the public, if she attacks a man, he's left with very few options. Should he choose to defend himself, he'll probably end up in court for excessive use of force or having the daylights kicked out of him by a "good samaritan" that happens to walk by and takes events out of context. That to me is a form of social inequality because society dictates that it's never acceptable for a man to strike a woman, though it's usually seen as something humorous when a woman strikes a man.

Macha · 01-12-2005 7:42pm

Sleepy wrote:

taconnol - how do you see rape as "a symptom of gender inequality in a society"?

It's a crime which, in the vast majority of cases, is perpetrated against women you'll find very little disagreement on that. How that converts to being a symptom of gender inequality is beyond me. If rape were permissable by law, or if rapists escaped with very light sentences, I could see this as a form of inequality.

For comparison, most assaults in this country are perpetrated against men. A scumbag looking for a fight will target another (usually weaker or more docile) male. Does this mean that he's being sexist in choosing his targets?

Or change the scenario to a female assaulting another member of the public, if she attacks a man, he's left with very few options. Should he choose to defend himself, he'll probably end up in court for excessive use of force or having the daylights kicked out of him by a "good samaritan" that happens to walk by and takes events out of context. That to me is a form of social inequality because society dictates that it's never acceptable for a man to strike a woman, though it's usually seen as something humorous when a woman strikes a man.

OK here goes...dont all kill me please...

IN my opinion (note the stress), sexism, like other forms of discrimination are about attitudes and behavior that leads from these attitudes. Rape is a crime mainly perpetrated by men against women. I consider that a man that is capable of raping a women has to have a certain attitude. He has to have a certain attitude towards women in order to behave in that way.

Very often, rapists are shown to have contempt for women and objectify them. Just have a look at the comments of the judges in these two cases:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2073012.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4248814.stm

Now I cannot deny that some women do not have the same contempt of men as I have outlined above and I am aware that there is also the strength issue. ie, women are generally not as strong as men and so are more vulnerable to attacks, including sexual assults.

But our society tends to objectify women sexually and the messge to men is 'she isnt a person: she's tits and ass.' OBVIOUSLY the vast majority of men dont think this way but there are some who clearly do and think it so strongly as to act on it.

I just dont think that if women were as strong as men, the reverse would happen to the same extent.

That last sentence isnt very clear but Im in a rush!!

Also I agree wiht you on the whole woman hitting man as humourous - so very wrong...

Sleepy · 01-12-2005 8:19pm

You see, I can't see how that demonstrates sexism in society. In the minds of the rapists, yes. I don't think society as a whole objectifies women these days.

Victor · 01-12-2005 9:38pm

QualderWahl wrote:

That confirms it. You definitely have never spent any time on the continent if you believe to a woman they are pleasant. Trust me, after you have been screamed at by a Swiss woman in the bank becuase you can't understand her dialect of German, you'll soon be singing a different tune !

I've had an Irish one ask me "what are you looking at" at 8:20am. I was asleep, eyes closed at the bus stop....

fly_agaric · 01-12-2005 10:36pm

taconnol wrote:

IN my opinion (note the stress), sexism, like other forms of discrimination are about attitudes and behavior that leads from these attitudes. Rape is a crime mainly perpetrated by men against women. I consider that a man that is capable of raping a women has to have a certain attitude. He has to have a certain attitude towards women in order to behave in that way.

But isn't that a kind of slippery slope. I mean there's a big difference between sexism in society and the depth of hatred that would cause a man to rape a woman. Can they be put on the same kind of continuum?

Anyway - about rape and sexism:
Could I suggest a thought experiment.
What if we had the perfectly equal society. Or even go further.
Society is still 50/50 men/women approx. but women hold all the top jobs, control the wealth etc. Maybe the numbers of rapes would be reduced but I'd bet that most of the raping going on would still be being done by men, and yet could you say that such a society was "sexist" toward women?

If we were to compare a totally patriarchal country with one where men and women are more equal - I'm sure men are still the ones doing most of the rapes (even if the number of rapes is less - although this actually suggests not [but stats may be dodgy]:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap&b_map=1.)

I have a feeling that only way to create a society where rape is equally likely for both men and women, and each is equally likely to commit the crime would be to drastically reduce the numbers of men - which seems a non-runner at present. Whadaya think?

Macha · 01-12-2005 11:49pm

Deleted User wrote:

Its only impossible if you view the more traditional views of how a woman was as being somehow wrong. The women of the 60's while not receiving the same chances and equality as men, were still strong women, that retained the ability to be women. Its only since the feminist movement has gained such force that being a "lady" is a bad thing.

Well see I dont agree with you there. The women in the 60's merely redefined themselves in a more positive light but they still limited themselves. For example, instead of being 'irrational' they were 'intuitive'. But it's 2 sides of the same coin. For me, as ive stated before, it's all about choice. If a woman chooses to fill the traditional role of being a stay-at-home mum then great.

But maybe I want to choose something else. You can have your preconcieved ideas about femininity but accept what they are - preconcieved ideas that may or may not have anything to do with any woman that you meet nowadays. I'm stronger than some guys I know. I hate clothes shopping. I love going to watch (and play) rugby matches. I dont like it when my boyfriend tries to carry my suitcase for me. Does this make me less feminine? Well in the traditional sense, yes but in my mind no.

And the opposite applies for men. By defining what is feminine, we are, inevitably, defining what is masculine. If a man loves clothes is he less masculine, etc etc. Again, we all have our notions of what is feminine but we have to realise what they are- preconceptions!

Anyone who has studied sociology (poor sods) will know that in the mainstream thought of the discipline, a disctinction is made between sex and gender. The sex of a person is normally clear: male/female. But a person is taught their gender as they grow.

Ill never forget my brother gettting this cool (blue) "Boy's handbook" that was full of cool stuff like how to make kites & light fires (hey I was 7 it was cool). SO I begged my parents for the girl's version. It was pink. It was full of information regarding the calorie content of different food and toning exercises. That for me is gender conditioning. (Hey it worked: Im constantly trying to loose weight, even tho medically Im closer to underweight than overweight)

I think that in todays (dare I say it...?) post modern society generalisations about any group of people, be it men, women, blacks, irish etc really are becoming less and less valid and therefore less and less useful.

fly_agaric wrote:

But isn't that a kind of slippery slope. I mean there's a big difference between sexism in society and the depth of hatred that would cause a man to rape a woman. Can they be put on the same kind of continuum?

Anyway - about rape and sexism:
Could I suggest a thought experiment.
What if we had the perfectly equal society. Or even go further.
Society is still 50/50 men/women approx. but women hold all the top jobs, control the wealth etc. Maybe the numbers of rapes would be reduced but I'd bet that most of the raping going on would still be being done by men, and yet could you say that such a society was "sexist" toward women?

If we were to compare a totally patriarchal country with one where men and women are more equal - I'm sure men are still the ones doing most of the rapes (even if the number of rapes is less - although this actually suggests not [but stats may be dodgy]:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap&b_map=1.)

I have a feeling that only way to create a society where rape is equally likely for both men and women, and each is equally likely to commit the crime would be to drastically reduce the numbers of men - which seems a non-runner at present. Whadaya think?

Sadly I think you're right. Maybe more men rape women than vice versa because it's the natural way of things. Wishful thinking on my part that maybe if we changed society, this fact could be changed...

Zulu · 02-12-2005 11:03am

taconnol wrote:

Wishful thinking on my part that maybe if we changed society, this fact could be changed...

Indeed it is wishfull thinking. Men are more likely to commit murder/rape than women because they are naturally more aggressive, and this is due to our make up. No amount of social engineering is going to change that. It's not a sexism issue.

02-12-2005 1:55pm

Well see I dont agree with you there. The women in the 60's merely redefined themselves in a more positive light but they still limited themselves. For example, instead of being 'irrational' they were 'intuitive'. But it's 2 sides of the same coin. For me, as ive stated before, it's all about choice. If a woman chooses to fill the traditional role of being a stay-at-home mum then great.

But maybe I want to choose something else. You can have your preconcieved ideas about femininity but accept what they are - preconcieved ideas that may or may not have anything to do with any woman that you meet nowadays. I'm stronger than some guys I know. I hate clothes shopping. I love going to watch (and play) rugby matches. I dont like it when my boyfriend tries to carry my suitcase for me. Does this make me less feminine? Well in the traditional sense, yes but in my mind no.

And the opposite applies for men. By defining what is feminine, we are, inevitably, defining what is masculine. If a man loves clothes is he less masculine, etc etc. Again, we all have our notions of what is feminine but we have to realise what they are- preconceptions!

And this is the problem I see. You're defining being feminine or masculine by what a person does. I definite it by the way a person acts. The qualities that a person has as part of their sex. A feminine woman retains the courtesy, grace, charm, and intelligence that women have had since society began. Just as a masculine will have a confidence, charm, intelligence, and their own courtesy.

You see roles, I see manners. When I say "traditional", you automatically think I'm talking about women in the kitchen, or some other role. I'm not. I believe in Equality of the sexes. Its here.

But I also see that men and women are two different sexes. We're already equal there. However, many feminist groups seem to want lose their femininity and take on masculine attributes, which are based on the difference in the sexes, rather than equality.

As for your own example, no it doesn't make you any less feminine to do all that. But the way you hold yourself, whether you spit in the street (which I'd think bad of a guy doing aswell), whether you curse like a sailor, whether you're aggressive to the point of picking fights, etc.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but thats how I see feimininity, and its one of the major differences between Irish women and many countries on the continent. They're secure in acting like women, without believing that they have to compete or even become men. They don't necessarily believe that by acting with the some of the more traditional values, will make them any less equal.

Anyone who has studied sociology (poor sods) will know that in the mainstream thought of the discipline, a disctinction is made between sex and gender. The sex of a person is normally clear: male/female. But a person is taught their gender as they grow.

Ill never forget my brother gettting this cool (blue) "Boy's handbook" that was full of cool stuff like how to make kites & light fires (hey I was 7 it was cool). SO I begged my parents for the girl's version. It was pink. It was full of information regarding the calorie content of different food and toning exercises. That for me is gender conditioning. (Hey it worked: Im constantly trying to loose weight, even tho medically Im closer to underweight than overweight)

Interesting. Just curious, but was your mother responsible for raising the children?

Crazy standards of Irish Men!

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