Loyalist feud

tomMK1

mycroft wrote:

I don't know, how about that theres some level of accountablility in state actions, a degree of responsibility in elected officals, and people can be held and called to account for their actions.

How is the court of appeal of IRA justice working out?



What makes this oh so hilarious is you're admiting you vote for a party that has it's own ex judicary, unaccountable terrorist army that refuses to hand over their guns.

so basically youve ignored everything I said? level of accountability - so thats why you support state sponsored terror?..hang on, did you say accountibility? You and me are obviously talking about different parts of the world here.

and hilarious is it? your second statement basically tries to bring things back to before my post on the governments terrorists, the unionists terrorists etc. You vote for the irish government, which played its part in the killing of iraqi citizens by letting planes refuel here (or alternatively the british government, who have their own track recrod for murder.) so you vote for murderers too, wouldnt that be correct (using your logic)?

mycroft

tomMK1 wrote:

mycroft wrote:

I dunno ask the bloke who was marching behind adams at a bloody sunday memorial, later charged with murder over a punishment beating.QUOTE]

im sorry, but you'll really have to spell this out for me. What has a marcher at a bloody sunday memorial, later charged with murder over a punishment beating have to do with Sinn Fein organising attacks? Because he was there, does that mean it was all organised by Sinn Fein? Why do people seem to answer questions with silly statements rather than answering the questions?

Who was this person btw?

Because at the time he was under investigation and facing charges and Adams had no problem letting him act as an offical steward.

Lets try and clear a few things up. Do you believe SF and the IRA are seperate organisations? Do you believe that members of IRA are in SF, do you believe that SF should be held accountable for the behaviour of it's members when they're engaged in "republican" activities.

so basically youve ignored everything I said? level of accountability - so thats why you support state sponsored terror?..hang on, did you say accountibility? You and me are obviously talking about different parts of the world here.

Where did I say I supported it, I merely pointed out the difference between IRA murder and murder commited by the state. At least the british are investigating bloody sunday, the IRA won't admit the murder of jean mc conville was a crime.

and hilarious is it? your second statement basically tries to bring things back to before my post on the governments terrorists, the unionists terrorists etc. You vote for the irish government, which played its part in the killing of iraqi citizens by letting planes refuel here. so you vote for murders too, wouldnt that be correct (using your logic)?

A logic flawed by the fact that I've never voted FF or PD in my life.

tomMK1

mycroft wrote:

I don't know, how about that theres some level of accountablility in state actions, a degree of responsibility in elected officals, and people can be held and called to account for their actions.

How is the court of appeal of IRA justice working out?



What makes this oh so hilarious is you're admiting you vote for a party that has it's own ex judicary, unaccountable terrorist army that refuses to hand over their guns.



So let me get this straight, you admit that the party you vote for has a paramilitary army that commits murder, but you think killing is wrong.



Oh phluzze, you're new to the site, and I could enjoy doing this dance with someone else again, but my joints aching,

Assuming someone disagrees with the republicanism/SF does not make them a unionist or a supporter or the British army,

Nor does it mean that we deny that the British army have commited horrible acts. However does the actions of another side justify or allow you to commit murder and terrorist acts. Quit holding up a mirror to the other sides actions, or Sands or I are going to produce a really nifty report which should that the IRA killed more people in the troubles than anyone else.



Yup they're all murderers, and you appear to have picked your gang.

I wont even bother seperating the quotes. ther is nothing in your reply whatsoever of any use.

you're new to the site

- cop on man. Dont go by registration dates
It must be quite annoying when people ask you questions and you reply with things like "Assuming someone disagrees with the republicanism/SF does not make them a unionist or a supporter or the British army, " - I never said anyone did .. thats your swing on it not mine. stop trying to speak for me, just so you can twist it around in a counter argument

Aklso, you're little nifty report would be quite wrong as most statisticans have pointed out that the unionist community is reponsible for most deaths.

"So let me get this straight, you admit that the party you vote for has a paramilitary army that commits murder, but you think killing is wrong. " - as I said numerous times, you more than likely have voted for murderers yet you reckon your innocent. explain that one to me (unless youve never voted beflre)

"I could enjoy doing this dance with someone else again, but my joints aching,
"
- oh Id be glad to watch your little dance my friend. I would ask though you reply to questions instead of dancing around them.

Maybe thats too tall an order though.

tomMK1

Because at the time he was under investigation and facing charges and Adams had no problem letting him act as an offical steward.

who and do you have proof he was a steward (just following the old 'bcak it up or retract' line)

Lets try and clear a few things up. Do you believe SF and the IRA are seperate organisations? Do you believe that members of IRA are in SF,

Yes I do believe they are seperate organisations. I have never been to a SF meetin yet where there were gangs of IRA men hanging around. They are linked through republanism though.

do you believe that SF should be held accountable for the behaviour of it's members when they're engaged in "republican" activities.

No i dont. If I murdered someone and was in the PDs would the PDs be responsible? I doubt youd think they were, so if someone in sinn fein joins the ira and murders someone, why would it be any different.

I suppose though, if you do think SF and the IRA are then same then you wont have to use half as many brain cells in understanding whats actually goin gon.

tomMK1

obviously my spelling has gone to hell .... :rolleyes:

mycroft

tomMK1 wrote:

I wont even bother seperating the quotes. ther is nothing in your reply whatsoever of any use.

So basically ignore what is undigestable.

- cop on man. Dont go by registration dates

So you're an old friend re registering.

It must be quite annoying when people ask you questions and you reply with things like "Assuming someone disagrees with the republicanism/SF does not make them a unionist or a supporter or the British army, " - I never said anyone did .. thats your swing on it not mine. stop trying to speak for me, just so you can twist it around in a counter argument

For starts yes you f*cking did

so thats why you support state sponsored terror?..

Your quote directed at me, so you did say it.

Aklso, you're little nifty report would be quite wrong as most statisticans have pointed out that the unionist community is reponsible for most deaths.

Oh dear.

Table 4 Organisations Responsible for Deaths
Organisation Responsible Frequency Valid Percent
Republican Paramilitaries 2001 55.7
Loyalist Paramilitaries 983 27.4
British Army 318 8.9
UDR 11 0.3
RUC 53 1.5
Civilian 11 0.3
Other 216 6.0
Total 3593 100

I've attached the file.

"So let me get this straight, you admit that the party you vote for has a paramilitary army that commits murder, but you think killing is wrong. " - as I said numerous times, you more than likely have voted for murderers yet you reckon your innocent. explain that one to me (unless youve never voted beflre)

- oh Id be glad to watch your little dance my friend. I would ask though you reply to questions instead of dancing around them.

Maybe thats too tall an order though.

I've answered you points, you've dismissed them, and ignored them. In a rather contemptable manner.

who and do you have proof he was a steward (just following the old 'bcak it up or retract' line)

I'll have to dig it up, it was mentioned in a recent prime time, I'll be back later with that.

Yes I do believe they are seperate organisations. I have never been to a SF meetin yet where there were gangs of IRA men hanging around. They are linked through republanism though.

Because they had the giant IRA Man stickers on their forehead.

How about this quote from respected journalist henry mc donald

So, for example, motions from radical branches in the Republic calling on the party to support abortion rights for women will be voted down with a collective show of hands from delegates under IRA army instruction.

from here

tomMK1

mycroft wrote:

So basically ignore what is undigestable.

As you can see, I actually did answer as many of your points as I could

For starts yes you f*cking did


Your quote directed at me, so you did say it.

I'll have to find the piece of this thread where i said that anyone who disagrees with the republican side of things is obviously a unionist or british. I assume you vote - that was the only assumption I was making. It was you who added the part about anyone who disagrees with the republican side of things is obviously a unionist or british, not me.
Before I do, you sure you dont wish to retract this?

Oh dear.

Table 4 Organisations Responsible for Deaths
Organisation Responsible Frequency Valid Percent
Republican Paramilitaries 2001 55.7
Loyalist Paramilitaries 983 27.4
British Army 318 8.9
UDR 11 0.3
RUC 53 1.5
Civilian 11 0.3
Other 216 6.0
Total 3593 100

I've attached the file.

the file looks lovely - Ive always wanted one. IN return I shall have to dig out the info in various well informed books I have read that would dispute that. theres another on the web which staes republicans are responsible for 49%, which also differs from yours.

The question is not if you can back it up with a PDF file - but if the file itself is actually accurate.

I've answered you points, you've dismissed them, and ignored them. In a rather contemptable manner.

You obviously didnt bother reading my post then. Which did I dismiss and ignore? there were some alright, but I'll have to check

I'll have to dig it up, it was mentioned in a recent prime time, I'll be back later with that.

oh yeah - the 'it was on telly so its true' line

Because they had the giant IRA Man stickers on their forehead.

what kind of answer is that? if you cant prove they are linked, you just assume they are. very good.

How about this quote from respected journalist henry mc donald


from here

how about it? whats its saying that any other person who thinks ira/sf bad, everyone else good doesnt say?

I would argue that in fact its been a great year for SF. They managed to move the peace process much further than their detractors have, plus theyve made massive electorial gains, as well as advising the IRA to disband.

murphaph

tomMK1 wrote:

The question is not if you can back it up with a PDF file - but if the file itself is actually accurate.

and...

tomMK1 wrote:

oh yeah - the 'it was on telly so its true' line

Common theme here? Disbelieve what is presented to you in reputable reports and the media and just toe the SFIRA line.

At some point you'll have to accept that the 'struggle' is over and was a waste of 3000 lives who could be alive today if the SDLP had been allowed to get on with their PEACEFUL campaign for civil rights which WAS having an effect!

tomMK1

Common theme here? Disbelieve what is presented to you in reputable reports and the media and just toe the SFIRA line.

whats the SFIRA line that Im meant to be towing? plus, what are you talking about? Just because its on a PDF on the web doesnt make it accurate, and just because its mentioned on a TV show doesnt mean its accurate. thats just common sense, not anyones 'line'. get around that cop out anti republicans round here seem to use about SFIRA lines etc etc. Ive been at a lot of SF meetings and never once has anyone ever told me what the SF line is on anything.

At some point you'll have to accept that the 'struggle' is over and was a waste of 3000 lives who could be alive today if the SDLP had been allowed to get on with their PEACEFUL campaign for civil rights which WAS having an effect!

all i can say is what country were you living in? cus it wasnt ireland obviously if you think the SDLP could have done much.

Are you telling me that the loyalists and RUC officers who attached the first civil rights march wanted peace? theres just soo soo much you;ve ignored in that statement about peaceful marches that really, theres no point in me going on, except to say that you statement once again is a tad simplistic.

tomMK1

oh and by the way. Would you think SF asking the IRA to disarm shows that republicans think the armed part of the struggle is over? cus you obviously dont think so .. or are your opinions in need of updating?

murphaph

tomMK1 wrote:

oh and by the way. Would you think SF asking the IRA to disarm shows that republicans think the armed part of the struggle is over? cus you obviously dont think so .. or are your opinions in need of updating?

SF=IRA=SF. No need to ask themselves to do something. Tell Robert McCartney the armed struggle is over, oh wait-you can't republicans killed him.

mycroft

tomMK1 wrote:

As you can see, I actually did answer as many of your points as I could



I'll have to find the piece of this thread where i said that anyone who disagrees with the republican side of things is obviously a unionist or british. I assume you vote - that was the only assumption I was making. It was you who added the part about anyone who disagrees with the republican side of things is obviously a unionist or british, not me.
Before I do, you sure you dont wish to retract this?

Oh jesus, you said you never called anyone you disagrees with republicans a support of state terrorism. I found a quote by you whcih you accuse me of supporting state terror, you get in huff. No I'm not going to retract it.

the file looks lovely - Ive always wanted one. IN return I shall have to dig out the info in various well informed books I have read that would dispute that. theres another on the web which staes republicans are responsible for 49%, which also differs from yours.

The question is not if you can back it up with a PDF file - but if the file itself is actually accurate.

Fine refute it, or get different statistics to rubbish it. Just some inneneudo isn't accurate.

You obviously didnt bother reading my post then. Which did I dismiss and ignore? there were some alright, but I'll have to check

The massive chunk you derided before answering????

oh yeah - the 'it was on telly so its true' line

There are photos, I like your Adams says it so it must be true defense.

what kind of answer is that? if you cant prove they are linked, you just assume they are. very good.

No you've claimed you've never seen IRA men at a SF meeting I was asking how you'd know?

how about it? whats its saying that any other person who thinks ira/sf bad, everyone else good doesnt say?

I've a link from a respected journalist, from the Markets in Belfast and his claim, you've got sweet fa.

I would argue that in fact its been a great year for SF. They managed to move the peace process much further than their detractors have, plus theyve made massive electorial gains, as well as advising the IRA to disband.

Actually I'll think you'll find the flaw is that the northern politics is balkanised, SF now face an intransient, obtuse opponent. who have greater support

tomMK1

Oh jesus, you said you never called anyone you disagrees with republicans a support of state terrorism. I found a quote by you whcih you accuse me of supporting state terror, you get in huff. No I'm not going to retract it.

ahh man, serious stop playing with words. I never stated (as you claimed I did) that anyone who disagrees with republicanisn is obviously a loyalist/other supporter.

Fine refute it, or get different statistics to rubbish it. Just some inneneudo isn't accurate.

It'd be a hard job to refute it as though I have defintely read otherwise, it'd be awkward putting my hand to the actual book and page. I wasnt making an inneneudo - just trying to point out that just because its in a linked PDF doesnt make it true.

The massive chunk you derided before answering????

I may go and check that out as I thought that in that same post i actually answered your questions stated in the block of text I'd quoted. My initial thought was feck that, but then I decided to do it anyway

There are photos, I like your Adams says it so it must be true defense.

fair enough if you can find the info proving he was guilty and the photos proving he was at a march - but it still doesnt prove anything either though. You cant use that and say Sinn Fein goes around terrorising people - which is what the original claim was (not by you i may add)

I've a link from a respected journalist, from the Markets in Belfast and his claim, you've got sweet fa.

honestly, i dont give a toss. its only his opinion. we've all got one of them.

Actually I'll think you'll find the flaw is that the northern politics is balkanised, SF now face an intransient, obtuse opponent. who have greater support

Id say the DUP getting in was one of the best things to happen in northern politics. the DUP will stick to their guns and have an opinion that doesnt change with the wind - unlike the UUP and trimble who changed his mind everytime someone looked sideways at him.

tomMK1

murphaph wrote:

SF=IRA=SF. No need to ask themselves to do something. Tell Robert McCartney the armed struggle is over, oh wait-you can't republicans killed him.

gosh I am chuckling at that show of amazing wit. Once again you avoid the question by posting really hilarious puns.

I suppose you know fior a fact mr mcCartney was murdered during an IRA operation acting under orders from the army council. then again I suppose you've also got the elusive proof that the IRA raided that bank 8 months ago almost.

In other words, you cant say he was murdered in an IRA operation, so therefore it isnt linked to any armed struggle.

The people who murdered mr mcCartney didnt do that in the name of republicanism and I dont think you'll find a republican who isnt sickened by his death.

mycroft

tomMK1 wrote:

ahh man, serious stop playing with words. I never stated (as you claimed I did) that anyone who disagrees with republicanisn is obviously a loyalist/other supporter.

Oh ffs you child, you claimed I supported state sponsored terrorism, and are now spluttering about how you never said such a thing.

It'd be a hard job to refute it as though I have defintely read otherwise, it'd be awkward putting my hand to the actual book and page. I wasnt making an inneneudo - just trying to point out that just because its in a linked PDF doesnt make it true.

So basically the ostrich na na na na na I don't believe it it can't be true defence. Brilliant and ingenious.

I may go and check that out as I thought that in that same post i actually answered your questions stated in the block of text I'd quoted. My initial thought was feck that, but then I decided to do it anyway

Seriously what? No really what on earth on your on about it.

fair enough if you can find the info proving he was guilty and the photos proving he was at a march - but it still doesnt prove anything either though. You cant use that and say Sinn Fein goes around terrorising people - which is what the original claim was (not by you i may add)

So basically it's okay for SF to put in position of authority a man being charged with a republican related murder.

honestly, i dont give a toss. its only his opinion. we've all got one of them.

Nifty the "I don't give a toss" rebuttal. Ingenious. I must try that one.

Id say the DUP getting in was one of the best things to happen in northern politics. the DUP will stick to their guns and have an opinion that doesnt change with the wind - unlike the UUP and trimble who changed his mind everytime someone looked sideways at him.

Okay, so let me get this straight you've got an dogmatic opponent who's pledged to scupper the good friday agreement, and not to engage in power sharing how's this a good thing again? For peace I mean, you're all for peace, after all

murphaph

tomMK1 wrote:

gosh I am chuckling at that show of amazing wit. Once again you avoid the question by posting really hilarious puns.

It asn't a pun and I'm saddened that a post about the murder of Robert McCartney made you laugh.

tomMK1 wrote:

I suppose you know fior a fact mr mcCartney was murdered during an IRA operation acting under orders from the army council. then again I suppose you've also got the elusive proof that the IRA raided that bank 8 months ago almost.

He was murdered by SFIRA members who clearly believe they are above the law. The bank robbery was also commited by SFIRA members. If Hugh Orde says so, I'll take the word of a respected senior police officer over people who have convictions for terrorism.

tomMK1 wrote:

In other words, you cant say he was murdered in an IRA operation, so therefore it isnt linked to any armed struggle.

The people who murdered mr mcCartney didnt do that in the name of republicanism and I dont think you'll find a republican who isnt sickened by his death.

They did it because they believe they are above the law and the attitudes towards the police on this board lead me to believe that the people need to cop on and stop giving these SFIRA twats the ego boosts that make them think they are above the law and treat them like the murdering scum they are.

catholicireland

As far as I can see, voting Sinn Fein is voting IRA, which is voting for murder.

That is taking it way too far, and is only your wierd opinion. If you were right then SF would be an illegal party.

the ideal of this thread is to distract us over to look at another killing to avoid some of the less salubrious activities of an organisation who claim they're fighting for us.

Your an idiot!

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

Your an idiot!

There's a grown up argument, not.

bus77

murphaph wrote:

SF=IRA=SF. No need to ask themselves to do something. Tell Robert McCartney the armed struggle is over, oh wait-you can't republicans killed him.

He was a SF supporter himself.

gandalf

catholicireland wrote:

Your an idiot!

And you are banned for a week.

LostinBlanch

tomMK1 wrote:

Id say the DUP getting in was one of the best things to happen in northern politics. the DUP will stick to their guns

So that's the official excuse for no decomissioning then? :rolleyes:

murphaph

bus77 wrote:

He was a SF supporter himself.

He wasn't a member of SFIRA. He may have voted for them.

Stabshauptmann

Earthman wrote:

It's a consequence of the fact that most people don't and never did condone PIRA's campaign.

Well tbh now support has soared and dipped considerably over the last 30 years and your statement shows a surprising lack of qualifiers.

Stabshauptmann

murphaph wrote:

He wasn't a member of SFIRA. He may have voted for them.

Does supporter mean member now?

murphaph

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Does supporter mean member now?

The point I was trying to make is that he may have just voted for SFIRA. He was not a member therefore would not have been known by his killers as 'one of their own'.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

mycroft

mycroft wrote:

Oh ffs you child, you claimed I supported state sponsored terrorism, and are now spluttering about how you never said such a thing.

That might have been missed by Gandalf owing to the fact that it was not reported whereas the catholic Ireland retort was.
Mycroft,I'm absolutely fed up of this now and am begining to lose count of the number of times I've had to ban you-so this time you are...

Banned for a long time

Mercury_Tilt

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

For one of them it's longer,a lot longer, but in future avoid the comedy moderating and just report the post thanks.

Anyways..glad to see the whole SF/IRA/UVF/OHTHEBADPEOPLE/MURDERDEATHKILL oirish debate has moved on in a progressive manner.

Thats why I locked 3 of them at the w/end-same old ring a ring a rosies-boiling into an episode of drivel like the last page.

Fair play to all involved. You should all be proud of your incessent repeatitve drivel. Or at least your parents should.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.All I want here is reasoned civil debate.

In the event that that doesnt seem to be happening-thread closed.