A cold house for Protestants?

Sand

I was reading the Irish Times today and came across an absolutely shocking statistic being mentioned. Whilst we concentrate on ensuring the PSNI attains 50:50 recruitment there seems to be a scandalous under-representation of Irish Protestants in the Gardai here. Apparently, as of last counting there are 14 - not 14 %, 14 Protestants - in a force of 12,000 Gardai! (I cant find confirmation of the figure from the Gardai, but Ive seen the figure mentioned in seperate locations) What the hell explains that when you consider that as one of our recent "newcomers" reminds us Catholics make up only 84% of the Irish population.

Whilst Im not in favour of affirmative action type fussing over varous percentages, youd consider as a reflection of population the Gardai should have a Protestant membership of roughly 450 odd and yet they only have 14? Why is that? Crazy as it was I assumed there religion wouldnt have come up as some identifiable characteristic in non-participation in the Gardai in modern Ireland.

Whilst we all know that the Protestant population declined drastically with the birth of the Free State, and terrorism of their communities by Anti-Treaty republican gangs in the early 20s, the article mentioned that 4 surveys on the remaining protestant border communities in Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth *still* feel they were left on the wrong side of the border, that their communities are outsiders, isolated and neglected, that they are marginalised from society, their institutions like the Orange Order lodges are attacked and that they dont enjoy the same success in getting funding for cultural schemes. 21-26% (various surveys) believed they did not have equal opportunities in the Republic, and 23% reported discrimination based on their religion. These figures sound nuts to me, but there has to be something explaining the seeming unattractiveness of a career in the Gardai.

Has the Republic done all that good a job of integrating a community that could just as easily have been drawn into Northern Ireland? When you consider that two of our major political parties are unrepentant throwbacks to the civil war and the state's foolish attempt to forcefeed Irish to the population, and the Catholic theocracy imposed by past constitutions have we really done any better than Craig and Carson, when Protestant takeup in the Gardai is worse than Catholic takeup in the hated RUC?

Hydroquinone

I would have thought - and it's only my opinion - that because we don't have enclaves of people who think the other mob are all out to get them, that the need for sectarian eqaulity in our police force is as nothing like as important as it is in Northern Ireland.

Also, I'd say that people here - in general, not just the Gardai - often tick the box that says Catholic when they haven't been to Mass since someone last invited them to a wedding. They are only Catholics in the sense that they were baptised into the Catholic faith and went to the Christian Brothers or wherever, not because they go to Mass or Confession and only receive Communion when they are in a state of grace.
Our newcomer, as you say, trumpets that 84% of Irish people are Catholics. How many go to Mass? Nothing even remotely like 84% of the population and that's for dead sure.

How many non-whites are in the Gardai? I've never seen a Gard who wasn't white. Ever.

This country is statistically a monoculture. White and Catholic. Yes, there are people among our population who are neither, or only one; but largely, that's what most people here are, like it or not.
I would say that if the Gardai don't start looking to recruit ethnic minorites into their ranks, then we might be storing up a whole heap of trouble for ourselves in the future, if immigration into Ireland continues.

Hagar

My uneducated, biased, bigoted view on this is that Protestants in the Republic in general are members of a social class that become Barristers not Gardai. I'm open to correction mind you.

How many non-whites are in the Gardai[\QUOTE]
On a lighter note the term Blackguard springs to mind.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

I was reading the Irish Times today and came across an absolutely shocking statistic being mentioned. Whilst we concentrate on ensuring the PSNI attains 50:50 recruitment there seems to be a scandalous under-representation of Irish Protestants in the Gardai here. Apparently, as of last counting there are 14 - not 14 %, 14 Protestants - in a force of 12,000 Gardai! (I cant find confirmation of the figure from the Gardai, but Ive seen the figure mentioned in seperate locations) What the hell explains that when you consider that as one of our recent "newcomers" reminds us Catholics make up only 84% of the Irish population.

Whilst Im not in favour of affirmative action type fussing over varous percentages, youd consider as a reflection of population the Gardai should have a Protestant membership of roughly 450 odd and yet they only have 14? Why is that? Crazy as it was I assumed there religion wouldnt have come up as some identifiable characteristic in non-participation in the Gardai in modern Ireland.

Whilst we all know that the Protestant population declined drastically with the birth of the Free State, and terrorism of their communities by Anti-Treaty republican gangs in the early 20s, the article mentioned that 4 surveys on the remaining protestant border communities in Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth *still* feel they were left on the wrong side of the border, that their communities are outsiders, isolated and neglected, that they are marginalised from society, their institutions like the Orange Order lodges are attacked and that they dont enjoy the same success in getting funding for cultural schemes. 21-26% (various surveys) believed they did not have equal opportunities in the Republic, and 23% reported discrimination based on their religion. These figures sound nuts to me, but there has to be something explaining the seeming unattractiveness of a career in the Gardai.

Has the Republic done all that good a job of integrating a community that could just as easily have been drawn into Northern Ireland? When you consider that two of our major political parties are unrepentant throwbacks to the civil war and the state's foolish attempt to forcefeed Irish to the population, and the Catholic theocracy imposed by past constitutions have we really done any better than Craig and Carson, when Protestant takeup in the Gardai is worse than Catholic takeup in the hated RUC?

In other words

'I think more Irish protestants should join the Gardai'

Have you done your analysis of other professions/jobs to see if the under representation in the Gardai leads to over representation in other areas?

Why stop at protestants? What about other religions or nationalities?

I distinctly see a lack of working class Dubs in the Gardai.

secret_squirrel

I think you are discounting the fact that a lot more people who were christened protestants are likely not to think of themselves as protestants if they are lapsed. Whereas even lapsed catholics are likely to still call themselves catholic when asked.

Probably there are a good few 'protestants' in the others category. (I assume there are a number of Gardai who claim another or no religion?)

mycroft

Sand wrote:

I was reading the Irish Times today and came across an absolutely shocking statistic being mentioned. Whilst we concentrate on ensuring the PSNI attains 50:50 recruitment there seems to be a scandalous under-representation of Irish Protestants in the Gardai here. Apparently, as of last counting there are 14 - not 14 %, 14 Protestants - in a force of 12,000 Gardai! (I cant find confirmation of the figure from the Gardai, but Ive seen the figure mentioned in seperate locations) What the hell explains that when you consider that as one of our recent "newcomers" reminds us Catholics make up only 84% of the Irish population.

Whilst Im not in favour of affirmative action type fussing over varous percentages, youd consider as a reflection of population the Gardai should have a Protestant membership of roughly 450 odd and yet they only have 14? Why is that? Crazy as it was I assumed there religion wouldnt have come up as some identifiable characteristic in non-participation in the Gardai in modern Ireland.

Whilst we all know that the Protestant population declined drastically with the birth of the Free State, and terrorism of their communities by Anti-Treaty republican gangs in the early 20s, the article mentioned that 4 surveys on the remaining protestant border communities in Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth *still* feel they were left on the wrong side of the border, that their communities are outsiders, isolated and neglected, that they are marginalised from society, their institutions like the Orange Order lodges are attacked and that they dont enjoy the same success in getting funding for cultural schemes. 21-26% (various surveys) believed they did not have equal opportunities in the Republic, and 23% reported discrimination based on their religion. These figures sound nuts to me, but there has to be something explaining the seeming unattractiveness of a career in the Gardai.

Has the Republic done all that good a job of integrating a community that could just as easily have been drawn into Northern Ireland? When you consider that two of our major political parties are unrepentant throwbacks to the civil war and the state's foolish attempt to forcefeed Irish to the population, and the Catholic theocracy imposed by past constitutions have we really done any better than Craig and Carson, when Protestant takeup in the Gardai is worse than Catholic takeup in the hated RUC?

Sands I'm not saying mountain out of a mole hill here, but the fact remains, the religion of any friend of mine down south is something that is left to an indifferent joke, that occasionally gets uttered over a friendly pint. In short it doesn't matter.

While I don't deny it's an oddity I really doubt theres any significant quanity of sectarian violence down south, that justifies an affirmative action policy for protestants in the gardai. Put simply when was the last time you heard a claim of sectaranism in an southern Irish court. One could be cynical and look at the number of Irish Protestants in the legal profession.

What is a greater concern to me is the lack of other ethic minorities in the police force of the south. Three years ago George Mayberry of the GSA proudly announced that not only is there a black gardai but also a single member of the traveller community as a garda.

The lessons learnt in the UK in the early 80s/late 70s about police and the brixton riots for example have been hard learnt. Isn't it time we dropped the provincail attitude re irish as a requirement to join the gardai (and as a result we could drop the lame pathetic insistence that irish should be a working eu language) and start recruiting members of our blooming ethic minorities in their communities. We've heard so many stories of new arrivals to our country intimidated by officals we're having difficulty making headway in cases, romanian, chinese and african officers would go along way to solving this situation.

Hagar

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Have you done your analysis of other professions/jobs to see if the under representation in the Gardai leads to over representation in other areas?

What about Muslims in public service? Osama Bin Man possibly?

rsynnott

In a secular state where we don't really have serious inter-faith tensions, is it really desirable to make a big deal of this (affirmative action)? I can't imagine many people care whether the local Garda is a catholic, protestant, jew, scientoligist, whatever.

FTA69

The Six Counties is a different scenario to the south, there inter-community tensions are rife while they barely exist here. Most conflict with the police down here is based along class lines really, a lot of distrust towards the cops exists in working class areas because of a variety of reasons. The predominant one being the fact they are ignored by the police and the establishment in general. When someone calls the police over anti-social elements or joyriders or drug-dealers they would be lucky to see the cops that day. If at all. Secondly, many cops engage in an overly agressive manner within working class estates, if you are a young working class male you can expect to searched regularly for no reason, often in a rough manner.

All this breeds conflict between the people and the police, one that could be alleviated to some degree by the creation of policing boards and such. The points about foreigners are also valid, but the primary racial tension in policing involves Travellers and it should be them who are targeted as such.

djmarkus

Indeed, A gard is a gard, are there any black gards?

Hydroquinone

rsynnott wrote:

In a secular state where we don't really have serious inter-faith tensions, is it really desirable to make a big deal of this (affirmative action)? I can't imagine many people care whether the local Garda is a catholic, protestant, jew, scientoligist, whatever.

A secular state? That might be pushing it just a touch.
Why is there no abortion here?
Why is the Angelus broadcast by the state broadcaster?
Why was homosexuality only made legal in my lifetime? (I'm 39)
Why was divorce only brought in a few years ago?
I don't know how old you are, but when I was in university, you could only get condoms or the pill if you were married. Or I suppose you could buy condoms if you went to Northern Ireland, but nobody ever did, because that was the time when no one went to Northern Ireland, for reasons that are obvious to anyone with half a brain and no family there. So the mindset that is in the people now who are my age is based on that sort of upbringing. The lawmakers are older than me, so I applaud them for making the new laws regarding homosexuality and divorce, but they haven't gone half far enough to bring us in line with the rest of the EU.

We are many things, but secular? Not yet; yes we've come a long way, even since I was a kid, I'm pleased to say. But don't kid yourself that we're a secular society, not yet.

rsynnott

Hydroquinone wrote:

A secular state? That might be pushing it just a touch.
Why is there no abortion here?

Even outside of the context of religion, there are serious ethical issues with abortion, and some people aren't too happy about it (I personally am pro-choice).

Hydroquinone wrote:

Why is the Angelus broadcast by the state broadcaster?

Because there's demand for it, as far as I can see. There is no state mandate for it to be broadcast.

Hydroquinone wrote:

Why was homosexuality only made legal in my lifetime? (I'm 39)
Why was divorce only brought in a few years ago?
I don't know how old you are, but when I was in university, you could only get condoms or the pill if you were married.

That was all part of the road to throwing off the shackles of the church (as, arguably, will be abortion if/when it's legalised). I'm certainly not saying we've ALWAYS been a secular state; for a long time we were a church wet-dream and a civil rights nightmare. But nowadays, yes, we are largely secular, as far as I can see. The church-dominated primary/secondary education setup could use a serious overhaul, and people's ideas are certainly not as modern as they might be, but we're definitely getting there. It would never even occur to me to wonder or think it significant what religion (or lack thereof) a garda was.

Hydroquinone

You have a slightly different spin on it to me, rsynnott, I can see that and I'm not going to fall out with you about it, since I've seen a lot of your posts and can see that you are what I think of as a sensible person (dunno if you think that's much of a compliment, mind!!)

But for a state you think is so secular, why is there a demand for the Angelus?
Why do people object to abortion on ethical grounds?

According to me, at least, both of those issues strike me as being entirely due to the pernicious influences of generation upon generation of strict Catholicism. The Angelus is meaningless to me, personally, but I can appreciate how it might just be offensive to a person of a different faith, if they chose to get riled up by such things. And I know we can't just all collectvely shrug off the imbued Catholicism terribly easily; I know that, but it seriously gives me a pain in my head that this so-called secular state can turn a blind eye to the thousands of women who every year go go to England and have an abortion. It doesn't allow them to go through something - which isn't pretty or pleasant - in their own country. I think that this State owes a duty of are to those women. They are citizens of the modern world and they deserve far better from their own State. And like you, the religious persuasion of my Gard is irrelevant to me because if I ever were think to of it at all, I'm sure I'd presume he's the same as me - largely bound up in antipathy about the need for anything as arcane as religion in modern Ireland.

I know the abortion notion is off topic, so I'll stop now. Sorry all.
Oiche maith.

rsynnott

Hydroquinone wrote:

But for a state you think is so secular, why is there a demand for the Angelus?

Because we still have religious people, thus there is a PUBLIC demand. The broadcaster's responsibility is basically to provide what the public wants; arguably the state broadcaster should not cater more to one sect than to others, but in practice it does no harm to anybody, any more than Fair City. If they broadcast Star Wars, well, that's someone's religion as well! I wouldn't personally really be in favour of forcing them to stop broadcasting the Angelus.

Hydroquinone wrote:

Why do people object to abortion on ethical grounds?

There are atheists who object to abortion on the grounds that it is, in their opinion, murder. It isn't a purely religious issue.

Hydroquinone

OK, then. What other nation broadcasts the Angelus? In which other secular state are religious prayers from one particular denomination included in the daily schedule of the State's legitimate broadcaster, to whom every citizen in the land who owns a telly must pay a licence? I'm paying for that, just like I'm paying for a lot of other stuff I don't really like. And don't watch. Am I not allowed to grumble about it? I'm sure I am, you know.

The point I'm attempting to make is that it's no good for the lawmakers to go preening themselves about the secularity of this state, when the very citizens of this state, - whom they represent democratically - still, according to you, demand non-secular and singularly religious things. The citizens of this state make this state what it is and as long as religious artefacts and laws influenced by one specific and singular religion still dominate, then we are not a secular society. The pubs still close on Good Friday. Why?

As for abortion, yes, I have heard that atheists can and do object to the principle, but I don't really buy it. You say otherwise, fair enough. Maybe I'm biaised. But the stone cold and indisputable fact of the matter is that there is a demand for it. And the government ignores it. And it goes on, year after year, after year, after pitiful year.
Does the government not owe the women who want it some sort of respite?

rsynnott

Hydroquinone wrote:

OK, then. What other nation broadcasts the Angelus? In which other secular state are religious prayers from one particular denomination included in the daily schedule of the State's legitimate broadcaster, to whom every citizen in the land who owns a telly must pay a licence? I'm paying for that, just like I'm paying for a lot of other stuff I don't really like. And don't watch. Am I not allowed to grumble about it? I'm sure I am, you know.

Probably none (the UK isn't a secular state, tho for practical purposes it's one of the most secular). Yep, you're certainly allowed grumble about it. I suspect in this day and age RTE wouldn't be adverse to adding other religions' ceremonies to the TV; if they wanted them there, that is; the whole thing always struck me as a bit odd anyway; most religions aren't at all keen on televisation.

Hydroquinone wrote:

The point I'm attempting to make is that it's no good for the lawmakers to go preening themselves about the secularity of this state, when the very citizens of this state, - whom they represent democratically - still, according to you, demand non-secular and singularly religious things. The citizens of this state make this state what it is and as long as religious artefacts and laws influenced by one specific and singular religion still dominate, then we are not a secular society. The pubs still close on Good Friday. Why?

Yep, that one IS very silly. I've always wondered what'd happen if a muslim brought a case to the Equality Authority against the state for respecting one religion's rules on drink (ban on a few days) over another's (complete ban).

Hydroquinone wrote:

As for abortion, yes, I have heard that atheists can and do object to the principle, but I don't really buy it. You say otherwise, fair enough. Maybe I'm biaised. But the stone cold and indisputable fact of the matter is that there is a demand for it. And the government ignores it. And it goes on, year after year, after year, after pitiful year.
Does the government not owe the women who want it some sort of respite?

Yes, I absolutely agree. But a lot of people don't even like to talk about it, it's such an emotional minefield. As to people opposing it on non-religious ethical grounds, it's not at all surprising. Many people oppose medical experimentation on lower animals (personally I'm in favour of it where it's necessary; it is in certain cases wasteful and occasionally counterproductive); and they do it without religious justification (unless they're Buddists or Jain). And the foetus in a mid-to-late stage abortion is almost certainly more a concious thinking being than a frog, say.

Hydroquinone

Ok then, rsynnott, you and me are offically singing from the same hymn sheet. Good to know.
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.Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, I probably don't mean hymn sheet, in the context of this particular discussion! How about karaoke file.

I really am off to my leaba now. Good night!

Sand

This country is statistically a monoculture. White and Catholic. Yes, there are people among our population who are neither, or only one; but largely, that's what most people here are, like it or not.
I would say that if the Gardai don't start looking to recruit ethnic minorites into their ranks, then we might be storing up a whole heap of trouble for ourselves in the future, if immigration into Ireland continues.

Agreed, but out of 150,000 or so Irish protestants they can field only 14 Guards? Thats not even a rugby team. Youd want 30 times that to approach what youd expect given numbers on their own. Comparisons to new immigrant communities are, somewhat valid, but Irish protestants didnt appear in the last 10 years, theyve been part us for hundreds of years and been with the State since its foundation.

I dont know - maybe it isnt a big deal, and theres no problem with the Gardai but the figure really surprised me. On top of the significant minorities in the border communities who feel theyre discriminated against, again that would surprise me.

'I think more Irish protestants should join the Gardai'

More, I would have thought, all other things being equal that Protestant representation in the police wouldnt be understated by a factor of 30. Though you support a party with a similar attitude to having only a few (one?) token protestants around for appearances sake, whilst launching bitter attacks on Catholic politicians who attract Protestant voters, so that might explain your position.

While I don't deny it's an oddity I really doubt theres any significant quanity of sectarian violence down south, that justifies an affirmative action policy for protestants in the gardai.

I never called for affirmative action, if anything I said that I didnt favour it. But the statistical oddity, taken into the context of those surveys means that maybe we could do a bit more than assuming everythings grand.

Blackjack

Maybe the job simply does not appeal to them?

secret_squirrel

Maybe they should advertise up north? Want to batter a catholic? Join the Garda Siochana.

joe.

Blackjack wrote:

Maybe the job simply does not appeal to them?

Exactly. Who is to say that enough Protestants are applying for na Garda Síochána to fill the quota to fully represent them? It may well be the same problem "up North" where there isn't enough people coming forward so as to fill the places allocated to Catholics.

I've both completed and passed the entrance exams to both the PSNI and na Garda Síochanána but didn't attend interviews for my own reasons. The aptitude tests are basically you have enough intelligence to make the decisions an officer/garda has to make but if you haven't got that then you're not getting in. If only 140 protestants apply for naGarda Síochána and only 1 in 10 of these have what it takes then that is all that gets through.

In my opinion I can't see a whole lot of protestants wishing to serve the Irish Republic in this way so maybe that shows in the number of Protestants that actually serve here. I'd be interested if there was an actual report available that showed how many people from each nation/nationality/religion actually applied for na Garda Síochána.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Hagar

Sand wrote:

Agreed, but out of 150,000 or so Irish protestants they can field only 14 Guards? Thats not even a rugby team.

And what part of a "rugby" do you you consider to be indigineous to Ireland?

I stand back and await the explosion of indignation from the west-brits.

Sand

Exactly. Who is to say that enough Protestants are applying for na Garda Síochána to fill the quota to fully represent them? It may well be the same problem "up North" where there isn't enough people coming forward so as to fill the places allocated to Catholics.

But theres its a problem that Catholics are under-represented, whereas here its not a problem that Irish Protestants are effectively not represented, whilst according to a series of surveys communities feel isolated? The two are unconnected?

In my opinion I can't see a whole lot of protestants wishing to serve the Irish Republic in this way so maybe that shows in the number of Protestants that actually serve here.

Why though?

is it possibly because you decided to take out your calc rather than them just deciding what they wanted to do in life versus meeting your poor argument?

********

ohhh look.. Sands is imploding upon their self... lets watch....

Well, your valuable or not so valuable time is yours to spend as you wish. But seriously man, let go. Just let go.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

More, I would have thought, all other things being equal that Protestant representation in the police wouldnt be understated by a factor of 30.

I posted a succint representation of your original post. Have you looked iinto industries/professions/jobs where the under representation in the Gardai manifests itself as over representation in other areas?

Though you support a party with a similar attitude to having only a few (one?) token protestants around for appearances sake, whilst launching bitter attacks on Catholic politicians who attract Protestant voters, so that might explain your position.
.

The last time I voted, I voted for my local Lib Dem canditate. Do you regard protestants in the Gardai as token?

My position on this? You seem to have assumed this.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I posted a succint representation of your original post. Have you looked iinto industries/professions/jobs where the under representation in the Gardai manifests itself as over representation in other areas?

I would concur with this thinking.
The vast majority of protestants I know are in much better paid jobs/professions than the Gardaí or they are property owners(again actually inconsistant from what I can see probably with their populus percentage)and they are for their size over represented (but very welcome ) on any committee that I've had dealings with.

Sand for your question (and comparison) to hold true, could you tell me if you know of any organisation or political party advising protestants not to join the Gardaí? Other wise most houses including the Gardaí are quite mild.

Blackjack

Sand wrote:

But theres its a problem that Catholics are under-represented, whereas here its not a problem that Irish Protestants are effectively not represented, whilst according to a series of surveys communities feel isolated? The two are unconnected?

How, where and when?.
Given that we are discussing the Republic of Ireland, as opposed to Northern Ireland, who really, really, has ever made an issue about represtentation of Protestants in the Gardaí?.
In fact, who, apart from some obscure article in the Irish Times, (link if you have it please) really gives a ****?. Honestly?. I do think that as a society the Republic is considerably more advanced when dealing with the various strands of Christianity that anything Northern Ireland can ever hope to achieve.
I do think that while you point (as a point of statistical comparison with Norn Iron) is valid, you are making a lot from nothing. If the Protestant population of the Republic thought that that somehow they were being victimised by the Predominantly Catholic Police Force, and before any high horse mounting begins, I refer to recent or living memory, as opposed to the 1920's, I am pretty certain we would have heard about it, and rightly so.

FFS, we could make a point of how many Protestants are street sweepers. I firmly believe this "Cold house for Protestants" theory is nothing more than a theory by the extremist on the side that would wish this to be the case, to support their Theories about the Republic, and how people live there.

Let's not start getting over obsessed about correcting problems where they don't exist simply because they exist elsewhere.

qwertyphobia

I suspect it's more to do with the Protestant work ethic which means they go for jobs which actualy invole some work. There by ruling out the gards.

Stabshauptmann

I actually thought we went out of our way to seem open and welcoming. Dunno, this all seems strange.

The origional proposals for an all Ireland free state over represent the protestant community.

In the 80s Shaws still had a no catholics hiring policy that was never questioned

Ive personally met many protestants in the GAA and Comhaltas. I was surprised (so I guess stereotyping is there) but thats it.

While they may not be in the gardaí I read somewhere of a 14 / 24 % figure when it comes to the Dáil but I cant remember.

TBH that article has really surprised me, i actually thought there was good integration in the RoI.

TomF

I, for one, am shocked at some of our Posting Community members' lack of sensitivity. It's not "Protestants" who are few in the Gardaí, but "members of the Protestant Community." Can we please observe the fine points here?

Stabshauptmann

Perhaps is more a case of me no good english rather than lack of sensitivity.