A cold house for Protestants?

TomF

Kaptain Redeye, it was only my poor attempt at humour, and I certainly didn't intend to single you out!

Cactus Col

I would have thought a more interesting figure would be how many Protestants sat the tests for the Gardai, and how many were called for interview. As far as we know from the details in this thread, there could have been 1000 Protestants going for the gardai, but only 14 succeeded.

And I'm sure if anybody were that interested all they'd have to do is give the Public Appointments Service a call and find out.

jank

Maybe they feel that type of work is beneath them.

I know quite a few protestants and they are all well... not exaclty living on bread line. Most of them have very good professional jobs which begs the question why be a garda when you can be a lawyer??

Id like to see the average income of the 150,000 Protestants here in the republic. Id expect it to be much higher then the average wage.

Sand

I posted a succint representation of your original post. Have you looked iinto industries/professions/jobs where the under representation in the Gardai manifests itself as over representation in other areas?

Should I? You can find variances in representation anywhere but were not talking about Protestants being underepresented in the Gardai by 10, 20 or even 50%. Were talking about practically *no* representation from a community of 150,000 people who cant all be bankers, doctors, multi-millionaires or from "the big house".

Am I supposed to think, that when I have always considered Irish protestants to be well integrated, especially compared to the mess in Northern Ireland, that for some reasons they can only find 14 people out of 150,000 who want to be Guards that this is grand - especially when people here are raising points about Gardai not being recruited from the recent influx of immigrants? Most of these immigrants only arrived in the last 10 years, expecting the Gardai to find significant numbers who can speak Irish and pass all other requirements is a little odd in comparison to the apathy in relation to the non-representation of a significant community that has been part of our society since its creation 80 odd years ago.

And this is not even purely about the Gardai - the figure truly surprised me, but I feel the Gardai are a good, decent force despite the bitter attacks on them by the provos and their sympathisers - but according to the surveys cited in the article there is a feeling of alienation from the state and its institutions amongst border communities that just as easily could have ended up in Northern Ireland. Did the focus on creation of a Catholic, Gaelic Ireland - certainly after Devalera entered power - up to modern times contribute to that?

The last time I voted, I voted for my local Lib Dem canditate.

A man who supports the provos but is defiantly survives under the heel of British oppression. And not alone that, a man who is happy to send British MPs to represent him in the British Parliment. Whatever happened to absenteeism?

In fact, who, apart from some obscure article in the Irish Times, (link if you have it please) really gives a ****?. Honestly?. I do think that as a society the Republic is considerably more advanced when dealing with the various strands of Christianity that anything Northern Ireland can ever hope to achieve.

Essentially because the matter wasnt up for debate, despite some sectarian boycotts and Devs foray into hiring and firing Librarians. There was/is a massive Catholic majority in Ireland, so when DeValera and crew got into power they created a Catholic constitution and a Catholic state for a Catholic people. Everyone else just had to learn to get along with it. In Northern Ireland however the minority wasnt so small as to be ignored so instability and discontent resulted.

Blackjack

Sand wrote:

Essentially because the matter wasnt up for debate, despite some sectarian boycotts and Devs foray into hiring and firing Librarians. There was/is a massive Catholic majority in Ireland, so when DeValera and crew got into power they created a Catholic constitution and a Catholic state for a Catholic people. Everyone else just had to learn to get along with it. In Northern Ireland however the minority wasnt so small as to be ignored so instability and discontent resulted.

I don't get you. Are we not talking about a modern day Ireland, where Dev is no longer in Power?. Was the special position of the Catholic Church not removed in 1971?. It took a while, but come on, you have to admit this whole "cold house for Protestants" is past tense, don't you think?. It may live on in the minds of the likes of Paisley and around bonfires in certain parts of NI, but only because they wish it to be so, other than it actually being the case.

Hobbes

No smoke? Wheres the fire?

What is the ratio of Cath/Prod in NI vs Ireland? How many Prods have applied to be Garda? How many are turned down? What is the percentage of "Others"?

Are you saying the Garda are putting barriers to stop Protestants?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Should I? You can find variances in representation anywhere but were not talking about Protestants being underepresented in the Gardai by 10, 20 or even 50%. Were talking about practically *no* representation from a community of 150,000 people who cant all be bankers, doctors, multi-millionaires or from "the big house".

You do not need to - it is up to you as the thread starter. of molehill out mountain springs to mind though.

Am I supposed to think, that when I have always considered Irish protestants to be well integrated, especially compared to the mess in Northern Ireland, that for some reasons they can only find 14 people out of 150,000 who want to be Guards that this is grand - especially when people here are raising points about Gardai not being recruited from the recent influx of immigrants? Most of these immigrants only arrived in the last 10 years, expecting the Gardai to find significant numbers who can speak Irish and pass all other requirements is a little odd in comparison to the apathy in relation to the non-representation of a significant community that has been part of our society since its creation 80 odd years ago.

It there an issue here and are you actively trying to 'create' one?

And this is not even purely about the Gardai - the figure truly surprised me, but I feel the Gardai are a good, decent force despite the bitter attacks on them by the provos and their sympathisers - but according to the surveys cited in the article there is a feeling of alienation from the state and its institutions amongst border communities that just as easily could have ended up in Northern Ireland. Did the focus on creation of a Catholic, Gaelic Ireland - certainly after Devalera entered power - up to modern times contribute to that?

Maybe the people who responded to the 'survey' where a fibbing. Any details on the actual survey that threw up the 14 figure?

A man who supports the provos but is defiantly survives under the heel of British oppression. And not alone that, a man who is happy to send British MPs to represent him in the British Parliment. Whatever happened to absenteeism?

Ahh, the old 'You are you living in Britian therefore you cannot have an opinion without me mentioning it routine'. It does wear out after a while, maybe you should come up with something more original.

Essentially because the matter wasnt up for debate, despite some sectarian boycotts and Devs foray into hiring and firing Librarians. There was/is a massive Catholic majority in Ireland, so when DeValera and crew got into power they created a Catholic constitution and a Catholic state for a Catholic people. Everyone else just had to learn to get along with it. In Northern Ireland however the minority wasnt so small as to be ignored so instability and discontent resulted.

The reason for the minority in NI being so large is the fact that the border was drawn to include the largest land mass that would have an inherent Unionist majority. If they wanted something like a 90% majority, NI would probably have consisted of half a city and 1 county!.

jank

By the way Sand what religion are you?

sceptre

jank wrote:

By the way Sand what religion are you?

I believe I've done this with one of your posts before but I fail to see the relevance of Sand being a particular breed of Jesus-worshipper, Zoroastrian or Rastafarian to the thread. You might explain the relevance.

solas

but..but.. religious people are insane.

jank

sceptre wrote:

I believe I've done this with one of your posts before but I fail to see the relevance of Sand being a particular breed of Jesus-worshipper, Zoroastrian or Rastafarian to the thread. You might explain the relevance.

Have you, I cant remember.

Is it a wrong to ask what religion one is? Is boards.ie that PC.

The reason I ask is that Sand's posts has a tend to give the odour of the under seige uper class fox hunting west brit protestant.

Not that there is anything wrong with that but would explain some of his ...well more quirky comments.

Hobbes

jank wrote:

Is it a wrong to ask what religion one is? Is boards.ie that PC.

Not really but Politics forum has a policy of attack the post and not the poster.

sceptre

jank wrote:

Is it a wrong to ask what religion one is? Is boards.ie that PC.

Not necessarily and no but it's obviously the kind of question that seeks an answer to be used immediately and/or later in a "what would you expect from a <blah> with views like <rhubarb rhubarb> like <oompa loompa bloke>" quip. And we could do without that - see comment from Hobbes. You can discuss this with me via PM if you like or start a thread in Feedback about it.

The reason I ask is that Sand's posts has a tend to give the odour of the under seige uper class fox hunting west brit protestant.

See what I mean? You're no longer treading shallow water there, I'd be careful you don't get wet.

pwd

why was my post on this deleted??

sceptre

Sand wrote:

A man who supports the provos but is defiantly survives under the heel of British oppression. And not alone that, a man who is happy to send British MPs to represent him in the British Parliment. Whatever happened to absenteeism?

Veering a little close to the veiled attack line there Sand. I'd keep that line in plain view at all times.

pwd wrote:

why was my post on this deleted??

I can't see any post on this thread that has been deleted by anyone (and I can see them even if the rest of you can't).


This thread is floundering due to the past few posts (including mine) so back on topic or thread's dying.

pwd

odd must be a mistake on my part.

There are plenty of poorer protestants, like myself, so that is not a valid explanation for such a low number of protestant guards. (possibly a large number of these are people who did IT or arts degrees at the wrong times but that is beside the point)

The protestant work ethic is a myth. Most protestants from this country are from families that were middle class or richer two generations ago, regardless of current situation, so most of us have inherited a middle class mentality regarding money and social status. That may encourage a work ethic, but that is not something directly to do with being a protestant. You don't see protestant schools getting the fantastic results in the state examinations (as far as i know) that would be expected if we were all such hard workers. So wanting a "proper" job is also not a valid explanation.

Becoming a guard appeals to just as great a proportion of protestants as catholics. I was in a protestant school for 4th year, and a detective came in to describe his job to the year. A lot of people were very interested. I remember someone saying, and I think it was a teacher, that we probably wouldn't be able to become guards at the time because we were protestant, and they said the same was true for nursing.

Is there any irish language requirement in becoming a guard? Protestants generally are less enthusiastic about learning the language, and that would also explain the almost total lack of other ethnic groups within the guards.

Hobbes

there is a garda thread somewhere that would answer that.

sceptre

pwd wrote:

Is there any irish language requirement in becoming a guard?

I assume there is. There appears to be an Irish language requirement in every State job apart from (mainly) "elected representative" and "judge" (the latter effectively given an Irish language requirement by previously being a barrister) so I suspect it's the same there, presumably with the usual specific exceptions.

Sand

The reason I ask is that Sand's posts has a tend to give the odour of the under seige uper class fox hunting west brit protestant.

To be honest, that attitude says more about you and your politics than me. Also says a fair bit about the attitudes that continue to exist in our well integrated society. One wonders why a decent proportion of the Irish Protestants surveyed felt that they weren't welcome in the state when you feel "Protestant" and "Under Seige Uper (your spelling) class fox hunting west brit" fit like hand and glove. Especially when there has always been a minor if significant support, now growing, for a sectarian terrorist movement, reaching as far as the Dail and the Government itself.

To satisfy your political mindset, Im like the vast majority of Irish people - a non-practising Catholic, who nonetheless cant avoid the fact that years of indoctrination through every institution of the state, from school religion classes to the angelus, cant not have had an effect.

Veering a little close to the veiled attack line there Sand. I'd keep that line in plain view at all times.

Merely attacking inconsistencies in his posts, I assume thats still allowed? Anything can be viewed as a veiled attack if you look hard enough.

Is there any irish language requirement in becoming a guard? Protestants generally are less enthusiastic about learning the language, and that would also explain the almost total lack of other ethnic groups within the guards.

Yeah there is, so that the odd tosser that demands to be dealt with in a tiny minority language must be appeased and to cover the eventuality that a Garda might be posted to to one of the extremely few areas where someone might actually speak it on a daily basis. Practically every state job has similiar requirements afaik. Gaelic is however the approved culture, much as Catholicism was the approved religion.

It there an issue here and are you actively trying to 'create' one?

Yeah, me and the people who conducted those surveys, the people who answered those surveys and the person who wrote the article that attracted my attention in the first place. We're all in it together.

secret_squirrel

sceptre wrote:

There appears to be an Irish language requirement in every State job apart from (mainly) "elected representative" and "judge" (the latter effectively given an Irish language requirement by previously being a barrister) so I suspect it's the same there, presumably with the usual specific exceptions.

If this is the case then you could argue that (assuming being protestant = less likelyhood to speak irish) the Government is specifically excluding many people of that religion from the Garda. PWD may have hit the nail on the head.

I would also worry at the future impact such a policy will have as our society becomes more and more multi-cultural. The only language based rule for becoming a garda should be a requirement to speak the working language of this country - English.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Merely attacking inconsistencies in his posts, I assume thats still allowed? Anything can be viewed as a veiled attack if you look hard enough.

Feel free to highlight these 'inconsistencies' in my posts

Yeah, me and the people who conducted those surveys, the people who answered those surveys and the person who wrote the article that attracted my attention in the first place. We're all in it together.

Ah well, if you say so. Any further info on the survey and the types of questions asked and sample size?

Still seems that the teacup in your place is getting very windy indeed.

gurramok

secret_squirrel wrote:

If this is the case then you could argue that (assuming being protestant = less likelyhood to speak irish) the Government is specifically excluding many people of that religion from the Garda. PWD may have hit the nail on the head.

I would also worry at the future impact such a policy will have as our society becomes more and more multi-cultural. The only language based rule for becoming a garda should be a requirement to speak the working language of this country - English.

Very true, many people from working-class backgrounds have not faired well at Irish hence their exclusion from state jobs like the Gardai.
Its funny that a Garda with a Dub accent in Dublin city are few to find in their home city.
Myself and about 22 others out of 30 from my leaving cert class would of been excluded from state jobs like Gardai because of the Irish lang. requirement.
So the requirement of Irish is excluding many sectors of society from joining the Gardai, the problem is not exclusive to Protestants.

jank

Uper (your spelling)

AH the old spelling trick.

gurramok wrote:

Very true, many people from working-class backgrounds have not faired well at Irish hence their exclusion from state jobs like the Gardai.
Its funny that a Garda with a Dub accent in Dublin city are few to find in their home city.
Myself and about 22 others out of 30 from my leaving cert class would of been excluded from state jobs like Gardai because of the Irish lang. requirement.
So the requirement of Irish is excluding many sectors of society from joining the Gardai, the problem is not exclusive to Protestants.

This is a different issue altogether. Although the Irish language requirment thing will change in the future its justifible right now imo. Irish is an Offical language of the state.

The reason why dublin gardas are so rare is that 1) most of the garda are stationed 2) most of the crime is there and 3) its like an indoctrunation for 99% of new gardas. You have to do a stint in dublin at some stage.

sceptre

secret_squirrel wrote:

(assuming being protestant = less likelyhood to speak irish)

The only problem with that is that in the past they'd have needed Irish to pass their Leaving Cert. And to get into university (requirement's still there for most of them). And they'd be required to do Irish in secondary school in the first place. Obviously there's the exception for people who came here after 12 or whatever it is but that's a pretty small number. pwd could still be on to something but I can't see all that many circumstances where Protestants wouldn't have had Irish in their schools just because they were Protestants (or in Protestant schools)

AngelofFire

I know quite a few protestants and they are all well... not exaclty living on bread line. Most of them have very good professional jobs which begs the question why be a garda when you can be a lawyer??

Thats not representative of all protestants though, im church of ireland, and both my parents are unskilled PAYE workers. Many of Dublins working class areas like clondalkin and tallaght have C of I populations of about 10% the vast majority of them being no richer on average than their catholic counterparts. Taking a day trip to blackrock and talking to a few of the locals about their background, and carrer would have one lead to believe that all catholic people are higher professionals.

(assuming being protestant = less likelyhood to speak irish)

On what basis do you make that claim, i love the irish language, Douglas D hyde an irish protestant founded the gaelic league. without him Irish probably wouldn`t be thought in primary and secondary schools here today.

pdh

The reason for the under representation, is that any who would be inclined that way, cross the border and join the RUC along with a fair few Catholics. Just listen to the ascents the next time you’re stopped

Andrew 83

Although I feel there's a general sense of dislike towards Protestants around the place (just listen to offhand comments from people, even reading them on boards.ie) I don't think there's much barrier on them getting involved in jobs etc. As far as I know the early leaders of the country (deV included) went to special lengths to try and include Protestants in the country.

On the topic of abortion that someone brought up in relation to Catholicism influencing people's views, I find that (commonly thrown about) suggestion insulting. I can form my own opinions without reference to the views of my church. I'm anti-abortion as I don't feel anyone should have the right to stop anyone else from living, the same reason I disgaree with a whole host of other things from the death penalty to murder. That's a personal decision that I would consider unrelated to religion for me anyway. I'm sure there's plenty of Catholic pro-choice people who consider the right to choice of a woman something they'd believe in personally and not think they must show complete deference to the Vatican's views, I'm just speculating there though.

Blackjack

Sand wrote:

Yeah there is, so that the odd tosser that demands to be dealt with in a tiny minority language

And here's me thinking you had a bit of respect for Minorities.

Sand wrote:

Yeah, me and the people who conducted those surveys, the people who answered those surveys and the person who wrote the article that attracted my attention in the first place. We're all in it together.

I had a look for the article myself. For those with a subscription to the Irish Times, it's here.
I found it interesting that it was written by Robin Bury, who is also chairman of the Reform Movement, who's not really known for his objectivity on such articles.
I also found interesting some of the other statistics in the article, such that only 17% of Protestants approved without reservation of mixed marriages, and that this did not differ hugely in the 25-35 age group, where over 80% "were unhappy about mixed marriages."
I personally know a Protestant girl who's from Cavan and who went to a local convent to get her education. She's mentioned to me that she received more flak from her own community for her parents sending her to the best local school than she got from anyone else.

I had a bit of a further look in relation to the issues surrounding how the Protestant Population "declined by a staggering 65 per cent between 1911 and 1991" and Found this article here which made some interesting light on the issue, particularly noting that 30,000 British Soldiers and their Families left after the formation of the Free State. This on it's own would considerably inflate the figures relating to the decline of the Protestant Population. Also noted were the incidences of Mixed Marriage, Fertility etc as factors contributing to the decline overall.

Certainly makes for interesting reading.

secret_squirrel

AngelofFire wrote:

secret_Squirrel wrote:

(assuming being protestant = less likelyhood to speak irish)

On what basis do you make that claim, i love the irish language, Douglas D hyde an irish protestant founded the gaelic league. without him Irish probably wouldn`t be thought in primary and secondary schools here today.

I made no such claim - I merely made an assumption - and clearly stated that it was an assumption.

AngelofFire

Apoligies secret squirrel, i misinterpreted what you had written.