Sinn Fein calming Ardoyne area

Villain

I was listening to an interview with a priest from Ardoyne this morning on Morning Ireland (Fr Aidan ?) who stated that many Senior Sinn Fein members were in the Ardoyne area very early this morning to try and calm the situation.

People may remember the scenes last year where Gerry Kelly and Alex Maskey were in the middle of a very large crowd trying to calm the people and make sure there was no violence.

This morning 50 to 100 people began a peaceful protest where they sat on the road where Orange men are due to pass through on their way to march.

Fr Aidan, stated that despite rumours that SF were going to avoid the area this year because of concerns about Sean Kelly been re-arrested, Gerry Adams, Gerry Kelly, Alex Maskey and others were going around talking to people sitting on the road and near by residents in an effort to ensure there are no violent scenes.

People on this board are very quick to bash SF when it suits them however they rarely if ever point out the good that they do.

Sparks

In fairness Irish, when the head of a terrorist group says "calm down there lads", it's not necessarily going to be healthy to not pay attention. This, however, is not a good thing.

Villain

Sparks wrote:

when the head of a terrorist group

In your opinion!

Sparks wrote:

This, however, is not a good thing

So you'd rather they did nothing and let them at it then??

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

So you'd rather they did nothing and let them at it then??

Personally, I'd rather they told them to catch on to themselves and feck off home. But that's just me.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

Personally, I'd rather they told them to catch on to themselves and feck off home. But that's just me.

Home?? only 50 to 100 were on the road, the rest of them were in their homes, is there a particular room you'd like them to be in??

tomMK1

oscarBravo wrote:

Personally, I'd rather they told them to catch on to themselves and feck off home. But that's just me.

please explain that statement. How can they catch themselves on? Whay should they catch themselves on? Cant people protest or is that a terrorist type thign to do these days?

As I said, please explain what you mean instead of making flippant remarks

Sparks

Personally Irish, I'd rather see them sit on the police council after having fully decommissioned the IRA (or at least, as close to that state as we could verify, since we'll never know if all the guns are gone), and let the PSNI handle the crowd control.
You know? Like you're supposed to do in a civilised state?

Genghis

Nothing in the North is normal, that is part of the problem. The Real Politik of the situation is that Sinn Fein occupy a position of leadership for the people involved. They can decide to use this leadership to incite the Ardoyne crowd (as they once did) or to coerce them into peaceful process.

It has got to be a good thing that they advocate peaceful process over inflammatory rioting / violence.

A further dimension to all this is that Sinn Fein would like to avoid a confrontational marching season as it would make any final move by the IRA much more difficult to execute - and I do believe the leadership of Sinn Fein want such a statement, their biggest challenge will be bringing along all of the IRA and not risking another split.

While I am not a SF supporter, and would never vote for them (besides their tactics and associations in the past, they are too socialist for me anyway), I do think a lot of credit must go to the current leadership in bringing about something that only 12 years ago would've been viewed as impossible - an IRA that has stood down, A Sinn Fein that recognises and works within a normal democratic system (at least to an extent), and a movement to a normalised society in the North.

Villain

Well the PSNI called on them to help keep clam. I don't want this to wonder too far off topic but there are many reasons why SF aren't sitting on the police board and I think you will see decommissioning before the summers out.

oscarBravo

tomMK1 wrote:

please explain that statement. How can they catch themselves on? Whay should they catch themselves on? Cant people protest or is that a terrorist type thign to do these days?

About the only thing that continues to feed the Orange superiority complex is the nationalist inferiority complex.

Why protest? Why not just ignore them? Why not make some popcorn and watch the march go by?

Villain

Well you could say the exact same for the other side oscarBravo, why bother going to through Ardoyne to get to the marches. Thankfully in recent years the protests have been mostly peaceful, surely people are entitle to protest peacefuly???

Genghis

oscarBravo wrote:

About the only thing that continues to feed the Orange superiority complex is the nationalist inferiority complex.

Why protest? Why not just ignore them? Why not make some popcorn and watch the march go by?

Just like they were able to do on Rossnowlagh beach on Sunday, or like someone suggested before - let them march down Dawson Street in Dublin. I guess the problem is not so much with the tradition, or with the expression of it (although they are certainly part of it), it is mostly with the way that the routes seem to be chosen to humiliate the other community.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

Well you could say the exact same for the other side oscarBravo, why bother going to through Ardoyne to get to the marches.

Absolutely, and as soon as an Orangeman arrives on boards.ie and starts to argue his God-given right to march on the Queen's highway wearing a silly hat, I'll debate that view also.

irish1 wrote:

Thankfully in recent years the protests have been mostly peaceful, surely people are entitle to protest peacefuly???

Of course. It then becomes a question of what you call peaceful. Presumably the Parades Commission has given this march the go-ahead. If so, and if the protesters are attempting to block the march, then they are creating conditions that will almost inevitably lead to conflict.

oscarBravo

Genghis wrote:

Just like they were able to do on Rossnowlagh beach on Sunday, or like someone suggested before - let them march down Dawson Street in Dublin. I guess the problem is not so much with the tradition, or with the expression of it (although they are certainly part of it), it is mostly with the way that the routes seem to be chosen to humiliate the other community.

...which only works because both communities have tacitly agreed to accept these rather pretentious marches as humiliation.

oscarBravo

I just noticed irish1's sig:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."--Mahatma Gandhi

I would offer the nationalist protesters a corollary: first you fight them, then you laugh at them, then you ignore them, then you win.

axer

oscarBravo wrote:

I just noticed irish1's sig: I would offer the nationalist protesters a corollary: first you fight them, then you laugh at them, then you ignore them, then you win.

It would be great if they could do that, but realistically I cannot see it being even contemplated in (as Earthman called it) that pressure cooker.

tomMK1

oscarBravo wrote:

About the only thing that continues to feed the Orange superiority complex is the nationalist inferiority complex.

Why protest? Why not just ignore them? Why not make some popcorn and watch the march go by?

in an ideal world maybe .. but tell that to my parents around right now, when they cant leave their house as their unionist neighbours have all access roads leading to Omagh from my parents home blocked off for 3 days of the summer. thats not fair and people shouldnt be expected to sit back and accept it.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

Absolutely, and as soon as an Orangeman arrives on boards.ie and starts to argue his God-given right to march on the Queen's highway wearing a silly hat, I'll debate that view also.

You've probably scared him off now

oscarBravo wrote:

Of course. It then becomes a question of what you call peaceful. Presumably the Parades Commission has given this march the go-ahead. If so, and if the protesters are attempting to block the march, then they are creating conditions that will almost inevitably lead to conflict.

Well there not actually trying to block the march, they go through Ardoyne to get to the march, that was my point oscarbravo they could go another way to get to the march, so by protesting peacfully at them passing through I don't think you could say that they "are attempting to block the march"?

oscarBravo wrote:

I would offer the nationalist protesters a corollary: first you fight them, then you laugh at them, then you ignore them, then you win.

I agree that would be the best way to deal with it, but been realistic I can't see it happening, as long as the protests are peaceful I'd be happy

Lemming

Genghis wrote:

or like someone suggested before - let them march down Dawson Street in Dublin.

iirc they did a few years ago to unvail a plaque for the orange lodge in Dublin or some such. I can't rightly remember.

The only people up in arms over it were the 'Ra supporters. Everyone else just ignored them and didn't give a toss.

oscarBravo

axer wrote:

It would be great if they could do that, but realistically I cannot see it being even contemplated in (as Earthman called it) that pressure cooker.

irish1 wrote:

I agree that would be the best way to deal with it, but been realistic I can't see it happening, as long as the protests are peaceful I'd be happy

It just goes to show: the extremists are not interested in an equitable solution; they're only interested in making sure the other side loses.

irish1 wrote:

Well there not actually trying to block the march, they go through Ardoyne to get to the march, that was my point oscarbravo they could go another way to get to the march, so by protesting peacfully at them passing through I don't think you could say that they "are attempting to block the march"?

Hm. Either this is a "feeder" march, in which case it must have permission, or it's just people walking from one place to another, in which case what right do the residents have to prevent them from simply walking?

axer

oscarBravo wrote:

It just goes to show: the extremists are not interested in an equitable solution; they're only interested in making sure the other side loses.

Or maybe they think why should they have to put up with that sh!t for no reason other than the Orangemen wanting to show their sectarianism publicly and to show their hatred for Catholics all over the world publicly - practically in the Catholics back garden.

oscarBravo

axer wrote:

Or maybe they think why should they have to put up with that sh!t for no reason other than the Orangemen wanting to show their sectarianism publicly and to show their hatred for Catholics all over the world publicly - practically in the Catholics back garden.

I've already explained why they should put up with that sh!t: making a fuss about it effectively validates it.

Tell you what: I'm hereby issuing an open invitation to any Orange Lodge to have a march in my back garden. It's a nice big one, they could walk around it a few times. I'll fire up the barbeque.

Why wouldn't this be a problem for me? Because I don't give a damn what they think of me, or my (nominal) religion or politics.

murphaph

This wasn't a lawful protest. The protesters were blocking the highway, which is an offence.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

Hm. Either this is a "feeder" march, in which case it must have permission, or it's just people walking from one place to another, in which case what right do the residents have to prevent them from simply walking?

My apologies oscarBravo, it seems the priest was mistaken this morning or used the wrong term, it is a march that is passing through enroute to a rally.

I respect everyones right to a peaceful protest that includes Ardoyne residents and orange men.:

From Breakingnews.ie:

Mr Adams hit out at the decision to let the parade pass the Ardoyne and criticised the security operation.

He said: “The huge military presence is entirely over the top.

“There are huge amounts of British soldiers here and life just stops, nothing happens and you can’t go about your business.”

As the marchers came down the route cleared by police, senior republicans urged the protesters to remain dignified.

The chant for Orangemen to enter into dialogue with nationalist residents was echoed by the Sinn Féin president.

“I defend their right to march,” he insisted.

“But in these communities where they are not welcome, it is good manners, it is neighbourly, to come and talk about it.”

Mr Adams also stressed that everything possible would be done to stop trouble breaking out when the parade returns tonight.

“We will do our best, but all of this has to be replicated by the police, the British army and especially the Orangemen.”

Heres a pic of Gerry Adams this morning:

tomMK1

oscarBravo wrote:

I've already explained why they should put up with that sh!t: making a fuss about it effectively validates it.

Tell you what: I'm hereby issuing an open invitation to any Orange Lodge to have a march in my back garden. It's a nice big one, they could walk around it a few times. I'll fire up the barbeque.

Why wouldn't this be a problem for me? Because I don't give a damn what they think of me, or my (nominal) religion or politics.

again, I say tell that to people who actually have to put up with this every year. Its easy to say you wouldnt find it annoying or intimidating, but if you had a gang of marchers in you garden every year for a few days - dont forget they like to get drunk, break up things and attack people - then I have a feeling you mght eventually get pissed off with it.

Or again, be like my parents are - hemmed in to a small area around your house for a few days every year in the summer since your unionist neighbours block all the roads with trailers and tractors. the question is, why do people like my parents have to put up with that? The answer, they dont. The bigger question, why do people think they can intimate others every year like this?

oscarBravo

tomMK1 wrote:

Its easy to say you wouldnt find it annoying or intimidating, but if you had a gang of marchers in you garden every year for a few days - dont forget they like to get drunk, break up things and attack people - then I have a feeling you mght eventually get pissed off with it.

If someone gets drunk, breaks things up and attacks people in my neighbourhood, we call the police.

tomMK1 wrote:

Or again, be like my parents are - hemmed in to a small area around your house for a few days every year in the summer since your unionist neighbours block all the roads with trailers and tractors. the question is, why do people like my parents have to put up with that? The answer, they dont.

If any of my neighbours, of any religious or political persuasion, blocked my road for a couple of days, I'd have them in court.

tomMK1 wrote:

The bigger question, why do people think they can intimate others every year like this?

It seems to me the bigger question is: why isn't there a distinction made between marching and intimidation?

If the issue is with the marches themselves, I've made my feelings known on that subject. If, on the other hand, the issue is with blocked roads, drunken loyalists and damage to property, then why don't nationalists protest specifically about these things instead? Mostly we just hear about objections to the marches themselves. Would it not be more productive to say to the local Orange Lodge: march away lads, but can youse not do something about the rough element?

ionapaul

As much as I dislike the Shinners and the 'victim' community up on the other side of the border, this seems a positive step by the SF leadership. I think the whole marching issue is central to the problems with sectarianism in the North - the Orangemen should accept that just because they walked down a particular road for decades, it is not appropriate or helpful (in actual fact it is delibrately antagonistic) for them to continue to walk down that road! In the same way that most of us in the South accept that the situation has changed since the Flight of the Earls and that a majority in the North prefer to retain the connection with Britain, the Orangemen should also accept that their marches should avoid nationalist areas as much as possible, despite any tradition regards routes, etc.

tomMK1

oscarBravo wrote:

If someone gets drunk, breaks things up and attacks people in my neighbourhood, we call the police. If any of my neighbours, of any religious or political persuasion, blocked my road for a couple of days, I'd have them in court.

you wouldnt have much of a hope of that if you lived in Omagh anyway. Yes you could make the claim, but I dont know how far you;d get before it proved too costly. same time, its an interesting idea too .. i wonder just what would happen?

It seems to me the bigger question is: why isn't there a distinction made between marching and intimidation?

If the issue is with the marches themselves, I've made my feelings known on that subject. If, on the other hand, the issue is with blocked roads, drunken loyalists and damage to property, then why don't nationalists protest specifically about these things instead? Mostly we just hear about objections to the marches themselves. Would it not be more productive to say to the local Orange Lodge: march away lads, but can youse not do something about the rough element?

Of my personal experience, those issues are precisely what the catholic community dont like. If it was just a day to march and nothing more then I dont think that would be a problem. Its the get drunk, find a taig, beat the **** out of him after the march (or if they dare cross the march on parade) that most people dont like. well, its certainly the bits Ive never liked about orange parades

ionapaul wrote:

As much as I dislike the Shinners and the 'victim' community up on the other side of the border, this seems a positive step by the SF leadership. I think the whole marching issue is central to the problems with sectarianism in the North - the Orangemen should accept that just because they walked down a particular road for decades, it is not appropriate or helpful (in actual fact it is delibrately antagonistic) for them to continue to walk down that road! In the same way that most of us in the South accept that the situation has changed since the Flight of the Earls and that a majority in the North prefer to retain the connection with Britain, the Orangemen should also accept that their marches should avoid nationalist areas as much as possible, despite any tradition regards routes, etc.

I dont believe in your 'victim community' theory, though i believe the reason loyalists march in areas they arent wanted is because they still believe they have a god given right, as loyalists, to do anything they please, as if they are above the law.

MrPudding

tomMK1 wrote:

you wouldnt have much of a hope of that if you lived in Omagh anyway. Yes you could make the claim, but I dont know how far you;d get before it proved too costly. same time, its an interesting idea too .. i wonder just what would happen?

Give it a try. Try not to call them the RUC or accuse them of colluding with the people damaging your property. I would also help to be reasonably polite to them. I appreciate that, as another poster pointed out, you only have to tell them your name and address but they will probably expect a little more information if you are making a complaint.

Before I moved to Dublin I lived in Ballysally, an estate in Coleraine. During the silly season someone was at the door every night looking for money for loyalist prisoners or paint. Anything that would accept paint was red white and blue.

We were told through a friend that knew some people that knew some people that we were going to get burnt out because 1) We were Catholics & 2) We didn't have a flag out. Also the estate waas blocked from 1730 every evening as part of the ongoing Drumcree protest. The place was crawling with police and army cos there was a bit of trouble between LVF and UVF residents. We had a newborn child and were concerned. I went and talked to a copper from one of the RUC patrols, I told him we were catholics and what we had heard. He said they had heard similar and the other handful of catholic families in the estate had receive similar threats.

At this point I was dragged into a landrover where the 10 of them kicked the living sh1t out of me and put me in hospital for 2 weeks. Oh, no wait, that's wrong. He actually told me not to worry, there would be regular patrols and they would keep an eye on us. There were regular patrols, several time a night, I spoke with them on a regular basis, any of the patrols I spoke to were aware of our concerns and did their best to reassure us.

We rested easy.

This was the most interaction I ever had with the RUC. I don't think it could have been better. I have a few other brushes with the law, a couple from the wrong side, but still nothing I could honestly say was particulary bad. So I'm afraid you will have to forgive me if I cannot understand how "some" catholics in "some" areas seem to be targetted for abuse.

MrP
MrP

mike65

Just watching the non-event, don't any of these people, on both sides, work?!

Mike.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote:

Why protest? Why not just ignore them? Why not make some popcorn and watch the march go by?

Why are you directing the parades issue towards Nationalists excercising their right to protest against bigots and Loyalist paramilitaries trapsing through their area hurling abuse? The Orange Order is a sectarian, supremacist organisation and as such has no business marching through a Nationalist area, that's the core issue. Would you belittle a Ku Klux Klan march through Harlem in a similar manner?

More importantly, many Orange marches display pendants commemorating Loyalist paramilitaries who actually murdered people from the area, and yet you have the gall to suggest to those peoples' living relatives and friends to "catch themselves on"?