Sinn Fein calming Ardoyne area

murphaph

Unfortunately I saw Kelly condemning the police' use of water cannon on Newsline today. For God's sake-they were being attacked by a mob with blast bombs, they fire some water back and are criticised?

I personally think they are very restrained. I doubt they like being in the middle of Parades Commission decisions every year but it's their job. I see also that firefighters came under attack again last night. Jesus what's wrong with these people.

Villain

murphaph wrote:

Unfortunately I saw Kelly condemning the police' use of water cannon on Newsline today. For God's sake-they were being attacked by a mob with blast bombs, they fire some water back and are criticised?

I personally think they are very restrained. I doubt they like being in the middle of Parades Commission decisions every year but it's their job. I see also that firefighters came under attack again last night. Jesus what's wrong with these people.

Can you repeat what exactly Gerry Kelly said because I don't think it was as simple as he just condemned them for no reason. I know Gerry Adams said

“When the police moved in what I think was quite a reckless manner, they took management completely away from the stewards,” he said.

“They brought the water cannon in too quickly. We should have been allowed to keep order.

“In a situation where people on the front line like myself, Gerry Kelly, different MLAs and Fr (Aidan) Troy were completely soaked on six or seven different occasions.”

Gerry Kelly has also condemned those who threw the blast bombs: http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/07/13/story211483.html

I think your been a little selective in what you heard on the news??

MrPudding

I am sure the fact that when the blast bombs went off the protesters cheered really helped relations between them and the coppers.

MrP

jman0

It is not up to the public to win the confidence of the police; rather it is the police's responsibilty to win the confidence of the public. They are "public servants" on tax payers money FFS.

MrPudding

jman0 wrote:

It is not up to the public to win the confidence of the police; rather it is the police's responsibilty to win the confidence of the public. They are "public servants" on tax payers money FFS.

It has to work both ways. There are people on this board complaining about the police abusing them. Now I am in no way condoning this behaviour but the people complaining about police brutality are probably from the same group that cheers when scumbags try to kill the police. TBH I think it is a bit rich to expect it to be OK to cheer attempted murder and then expect the potential victim to act like your best friend.

When you have an environment like NI where many people are historically very anti-police and will attempt to hurt, kill or prevent them from carrying out their work then I am sorry but you are wrong. These communities do have to win the confidence of the police.

MrP

murphaph

irish1 wrote:

Can you repeat what exactly Gerry Kelly said because I don't think it was as simple as he just condemned them for no reason. I know Gerry Adams said

Gerry Kelly has also condemned those who threw the blast bombs: http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/07/13/story211483.html

I think your been a little selective in what you heard on the news??

Kelly said roughly what Adams said. The helicopter CCTV really shows the story. The marchers were strolling home from the city centre. They were separated from nationalists by a temporary wall and a police line. Nationalists threw missiles in a COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED manner at the unionists (there were kiddies and old people in fcuking wheelchairs being pushed home). The police had to stop this craziness or people would have been injured. They used water. Hardly a lethal weapon, just water. They didn't fire plastic bullets at this point at all. After this point, the police were attacked with 9 blast bombs, 4 of which exploded. The police had to defend themselves so they discharged 23 plastic bullets. I personally think the cops are very restrained up there. I'd go nuts if scumbags were hurling blast bombs and bricks/golfballs at me.

The cops praised SF for trying to calm the situation but yet again members of SF (Alex Maskey in particular) refused to condemn the violence and instead blamed the police for using the water cannon??? What are they supposed to do, ask the scumbags to stop throwing missiles over the line at unionists who were just walking home and stand back and do nothing when they refuse???

FTA69

So you advocate criminal activity, good for you. The Parades Commission are the lawful body charged with deciding if a parade route is acceptable. They deem it acceptable, and it is legal. Blocking the highway is illegal but you clearly have little regard for silly things like law and order

.

So because the "law" says something it is automatically moral, just and must be obeyed by all? By your logic many other actions in Irish history were also "criminal" simply because it contravened British law. Marches and protests against segregation in the USA were also "criminal" were they? When the law decrees that people have to put up with sectarian bigots parading throught their area the law can take a run and jump for itself.

See above-the British Army and it's members (including thousands of Irishmen down the years) fought lots of good fights, they didn't spring up in 1972 to oppress Catholics and they will be around for a long time!

Lots of good fights? Oh please, the British Army has been one of the most oppressive colonial tools in the history of the entire world, it subjugated a quarter of the world's people including our own, and yet you expect me to feel some sort of gratitude for them? They were here oppressing the Irish people before WW2 and they are here oppressing them now that that war is long over.

So a cenotaph to fallen war heroes who died in the fight against a regime that slaughtered millions of jews, homosexuals, gypsies, political dissenters etc. is rubbing bigotry in your face? Don't make me laugh. Oder auf Deutsch, vielleicht?

I was talking about the Orange parades in the above comment, and for your information many Brit Army memorials commemorate the UDR , a prize bigoted organisation.

Hmmm, but you said that drunken louts REMAIN in an area and proceed to wreck the place after a march. So now you're changing your story to the police remaining in an area after ALL marchers have been escorted through.

Actually I didn't say that I believe it was another poster, contenscious marches through Republican are sped through with the police remaining to harras Nationalists. Marches that don't meet with much resistance usually result in Loyalists smashing up things.

Well, to return to the thread, it seems whatever calming SF were attempting failed to prevent blast bombs being thrown at the police

How is it our fault when the CIRA start throwing blast bombs? It also undermines Republican persuasions when Gerry Adams is water-cannoned and the police start firing potentially lethal weapons at people.

Nationalists threw missiles in a COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED manner

The only provocation in Ardoyne yesterday was the unwanted police and a shower of drunken bigots displaying their bigotry. I have no sympathy for any of them who may have been injured, if they weren't there in the first place it wouldn't have happened.

Villain

murphaph wrote:

Kelly said roughly what Adams said. The helicopter CCTV really shows the story. The marchers were strolling home from the city centre. They were separated from nationalists by a temporary wall and a police line. Nationalists threw missiles in a COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED manner at the unionists (there were kiddies and old people in fcuking wheelchairs being pushed home). The police had to stop this craziness or people would have been injured. They used water. Hardly a lethal weapon, just water. They didn't fire plastic bullets at this point at all. After this point, the police were attacked with 9 blast bombs, 4 of which exploded. The police had to defend themselves so they discharged 23 plastic bullets. I personally think the cops are very restrained up there. I'd go nuts if scumbags were hurling blast bombs and bricks/golfballs at me.

What percentage of the nationalist crowd threw missiles?

Adams didn't condemn the use of the water cannon out of hand he said "“They brought the water cannon in too quickly", he obviously believed the marshalls should have been given more time to try and calm things.

As for the "COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED" attack, well I wouldn't in any way condone people throwing missiles but I think your idea of being provoked and the nationalists idea might be a bit different, I doubt from the helicpter cctv you could hear what was been shouted across. Although the thugs that threw the missiles were probably just waiting for an excuse.

murphaph wrote:

The cops praised SF for trying to calm the situation but yet again members of SF (Alex Maskey in particular) refused to condemn the violence and instead blamed the police for using the water cannon??? What are they supposed to do, ask the scumbags to stop throwing missiles over the line at unionists who were just walking home and stand back and do nothing when they refuse???

Can you give me a link to where SF members refused to condemn the violence because I provided a link where they had condemned the violence

FTA69

Those who threw missiles weren't "thugs" irish1, they were normal working-class people who have been pushed too far by bigots and their police allies over the years and they decided they weren't taking it any more. I personally disagree with the approach they took but considering I don't live there I won't condemn them. Neither will I attempt to attach a "thug" label to people who aren't stereotypical hooligans.

Villain

FTA69 wrote:

Those who threw missiles weren't "thugs" irish1, they were normal working-class people who have been pushed too far by bigots and their police allies over the years and they decided they weren't taking it any more. I personally disagree with the approach they took but considering I don't live there I won't condemn them. Neither will I attempt to attach a "thug" label to people who aren't stereotypical hooligans.

If these working class people were throwing missiles at Adult Orange Men who were povocating them I'd say something, but there were women and kids on the other side of that barrier!!

Cork

FTA69 wrote:

Those who threw missiles weren't "thugs" irish1, they were normal working-class people who have been pushed too far by bigots and their police allies over the years and they decided they weren't taking it any more. I personally disagree with the approach they took but considering I don't live there I won't condemn them. Neither will I attempt to attach a "thug" label to people who aren't stereotypical hooligans.

Where did you see that they were missilles - I tought they were blast bombs?

Would a working class person know about blast bombs?

Sinn Féin in fairness has criticised those responsible for throwing blast bombs at police officers during riots in north Belfast last night.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

So because the "law" says something it is automatically moral, just and must be obeyed by all? By your logic many other actions in Irish history were also "criminal" simply because it contravened British law. Marches and protests against segregation in the USA were also "criminal" were they? When the law decrees that people have to put up with sectarian bigots parading throught their area the law can take a run and jump for itself.

The public highway isn't theirs!

FTA69 wrote:

Lots of good fights? Oh please, the British Army has been one of the most oppressive colonial tools in the history of the entire world, it subjugated a quarter of the world's people including our own, and yet you expect me to feel some sort of gratitude for them? They were here oppressing the Irish people before WW2 and they are here oppressing them now that that war is long over.

Yes of course they oppressed people in Ireland, like any country with a colonial past, but they aren't oppressing them now. They also defended your freedom from nazism. Remember that when you're not speaking german whilst working in a forced labour camp and be grateful for it.

FTA69 wrote:

I was talking about the Orange parades in the above comment, and for your information many Brit Army memorials commemorate the UDR , a prize bigoted organisation.

You spoke about there being many memorials around Northern Ireland. These are usually cenotaphs. They pay tribute to Irish servicemen in the British Army too. Don't forget that.

FTA69 wrote:

Actually I didn't say that I believe it was another poster, contenscious marches through Republican are sped through with the police remaining to harras Nationalists. Marches that don't meet with much resistance usually result in Loyalists smashing up things.

Sorry for mixing you up, it's easy enough to do you understand. So you want it BOTH ways-Loyalists wreck the place or else Police harrass Catholics! Why not go for the hat-trick and claim that Loyalists team up with the police and wreck the place and harrass Catholics at the same time?!

FTA69 wrote:

How is it our fault when the CIRA start throwing blast bombs? It also undermines Republican persuasions when Gerry Adams is water-cannoned and the police start firing potentially lethal weapons at people.

Well, I assume you're a member of SF then. How can you so categorically say it was CIRA members that were throwing blast bombs?

The police used water because innocent people who were making their way back from the city through the Ardoyne on a public highway came under an unprovoked attack from the nationalist side. They can't stand by and let people be injured. They have to do something and they have few options. They could baton charge the crowd, they opted for a softer option of wetting them with water to dampen their spirits. This failed to have the desired effect and police themselves came under attack with explosives, so they had to DEFEND themselves, get it? They fired plastic bullets-a considerably safer weapon than they were being attacked with!!!

FTA69 wrote:

The only provocation in Ardoyne yesterday was the unwanted police and a shower of drunken bigots displaying their bigotry. I have no sympathy for any of them who may have been injured, if they weren't there in the first place it wouldn't have happened.

So, the police are told to go there to keep the peace after the route was approved by an independent Parades Commission and they get attacked with explosive devices. The people I SAW on tv coming under attack were NOT DRUNKEN BIGOTS, they were regular people, kids and old people in fcuking wheelchairs out for the days march just quietly returning home. If you watch the CCTV recorded by the helicopter and tell me different and you'll make a liar out of yourself.

You also display your humanity when you say you couldn't give a toss if kiddies get a brick or golfball in the head.

Sleepy

Surely the best way to handle this would be to deck the streets in orange and stay inside your home, pointing and laughing out the window?

The best way to deal with situations like this is to take the piss out of those that think they're opressing you by walking down your street, show 'em that you don't give a flying fcuk and you can be sure they won't bother scheduling the parade for that street next year.

Or you could all spark up the BBQ's and feed the marchers with "slightly undercooked" chicken

FTA69

The public highway isn't theirs!

No, but the houses that surround them are and the fact it is a "public highway" doesn't give credence to bigots who want to rub their sectarianism in the noses of Nationalists.

Yes of course they oppressed people in Ireland, like any country with a colonial past, but they aren't oppressing them now. They also defended your freedom from nazism. Remember that when you're not speaking german whilst working in a forced labour camp and be grateful for it.

The British Army has been responsible for more deaths than the Nazi regime. The fact they remain here in Ireland against the wishes of its inhabitants also suggests they are very much oppressive. Anyway, let us not go off topic, this thread is about Ardoyne.

Sorry for mixing you up, it's easy enough to do you understand. So you want it BOTH ways-Loyalists wreck the place or else Police harrass Catholics! Why not go for the hat-trick and claim that Loyalists team up with the police and wreck the place and harrass Catholics at the same time?!

You'll find the police have quite the habit of colluding with Loyalists, although the end result was much worse than harassment.

Well, I assume you're a member of SF then. How can you so categorically say it was CIRA members that were throwing blast bombs?

Because they're gloating about it all over the country that's how.

so they had to DEFEND themselves, get it?

As I said, they wouldn't have to "defend" themselves if them and their Orange buddies hadn't been polluting an area in which they weren't wanted.

The people I SAW on tv coming under attack were NOT DRUNKEN BIGOTS, they were regular people, kids and old people in fcuking wheelchairs out for the days march just quietly returning home.

They weren't quietly wandering home, they were following an organised route, they could just have easily went home a different way without displaying their uniforms etc.

gurramok

Sleepy wrote:

Surely the best way to handle this would be to deck the streets in orange and stay inside your home, pointing and laughing out the window?

The best way to deal with situations like this is to take the piss out of those that think they're opressing you by walking down your street, show 'em that you don't give a flying fcuk and you can be sure they won't bother scheduling the parade for that street next year.

Or you could all spark up the BBQ's and feed the marchers with "slightly undercooked" chicken

I know your a bit sarcastic but it will never happen, sounds too utopia !:)
According to the newsreader on tv, there are going to be 2 more marches through the same area next month and then the whole cycle repeats itself next yr.
Its odd how Orangemen would talk to Derry residents and ensure a largely peaceful march(which it was despite minor trouble after the event) but will not talk to Ardoyne residents to prevent further trouble.

Else that place(ardoyne) is going to be a hot troublespot of tension unless there is agreement by both sides to a solution.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

No, but the houses that surround them are and the fact it is a "public highway" doesn't give credence to bigots who want to rub their sectarianism in the noses of Nationalists.

The only sectarianism I saw on the TV footage was blokes in celtic tops indiscriminately hurling bricks at women, children and the elderly they couldn't even see over a security screen. These people hurried by as quickly as possible-the cameras never lie.

FTA69 wrote:

The British Army has been responsible for more deaths than the Nazi regime.

I doubt it. Have you got a link? We're talking about industrialised mass murder here, not casualties of war.

FTA69 wrote:

The fact they remain here in Ireland against the wishes of its inhabitants also suggests they are very much oppressive. Anyway, let us not go off topic, this thread is about Ardoyne.

No, seeing as you brought it up-the army has the backing of the majority of people in Northern Ireland. Please don't make things up like that.

FTA69 wrote:

You'll find the police have quite the habit of colluding with Loyalists, although the end result was much worse than harassment.

When was the last time exactly?

FTA69 wrote:

Because they're gloating about it all over the country that's how.

Hmmmm, not exactly verifiable that. I'll wait till the PSNI tell us who they think it was if you don't mind.

FTA69 wrote:

As I said, they wouldn't have to "defend" themselves if them and their Orange buddies hadn't been polluting an area in which they weren't wanted.

Now I'm beginning to see why you don't have a problem with Nazism. That's a pretty disgusting and intollerant word to use. And why put the word 'defend' in double quotation marks? Don't you think you'd defend yourself if someone was throwing explosive devices at you?

FTA69 wrote:

They weren't quietly wandering home, they were following an organised route, they could just have easily went home a different way without displaying their uniforms etc.

Yup, they were walking home the way the Parades Commision said to walk home. The lawful way. Why shouldn't they display their union flags? They're unionists for crying out loud.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I'd have no problem with it. People have a right to peaceful, legal protest.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote:

When the law decrees that people have to put up with sectarian bigots parading throught their area the law can take a run and jump for itself.

I've said it before, and I'll doubtless say it again: Sinn Féin, the law and order party.

FTA69 wrote:

The only provocation in Ardoyne yesterday was the unwanted police and a shower of drunken bigots displaying their bigotry. I have no sympathy for any of them who may have been injured, if they weren't there in the first place it wouldn't have happened.

You don't consider throwing blast bombs, bricks and golf balls provocative? And yet you get all upset when a policeman calls you names?

Stranger still, you believe that you have more of a right to cross the border to take part in a protest than the PSNI have to be in the Ardoyne?

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote:

Stranger still, you believe that you have more of a right to cross the border to take part in a protest than the PSNI have to be in the Ardoyne?

Indeed. Be thankful they didn't deport you out of the United Kingdom!

Villain

murphaph, any chance you can reply to this when you get a chance, cheers.

murphaph

irish1 wrote:

murphaph, any chance you can reply to this when you get a chance, cheers.

Sure, sorry.

irish1 wrote:

What percentage of the nationalist crowd threw missiles?

Impossible to give an exact figure. Of the crowd within range of the water canon I'd say in excess of 50%, and that's a conservative estimate.

irish1 wrote:

Adams didn't condemn the use of the water cannon out of hand he said "“They brought the water cannon in too quickly", he obviously believed the marshalls should have been given more time to try and calm things.

The bricks were raining down on the people on the other side of the security screen. The cops had to act quickly to prevent injury. They sprayed water to prevent bricks hitting kids-if they'd waited and a brick had killed a child, they'd be blamed for inaction. They just can't win.

irish1 wrote:

As for the "COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED" attack, well I wouldn't in any way condone people throwing missiles but I think your idea of being provoked and the nationalists idea might be a bit different, I doubt from the helicpter cctv you could hear what was been shouted across. Although the thugs that threw the missiles were probably just waiting for an excuse.

No matter what verbal abuse is thrown-that can't warrant a violent reaction. I can't punch someone in the face because he calls me names on the street. It's the law.

irish1 wrote:

Can you give me a link to where SF members refused to condemn the violence because I provided a link where they had condemned the violence

Sorry, no link. It was reported on the news. Adams and Kelly did indeed condemn the missile and blast bomb throwers but Maskey failed to do so. It sends out a very mixed message from SFIRA.

FTA69

The only sectarianism I saw on the TV footage was blokes in celtic tops indiscriminately hurling bricks at women, children and the elderly they couldn't even see over a security screen. These people hurried by as quickly as possible-the cameras never lie.

So now you don't believe that Orange marches are sectarian? Defending your area against those lauding Protestant supremacy is not sectarianism, it is natural really.

I doubt it. Have you got a link? We're talking about industrialised mass murder here, not casualties of war.

Add up the amount of atrocities and murders committed by the British establishment over the centuries and it will by far exceed 6 million people.

No, seeing as you brought it up-the army has the backing of the majority of people in Northern Ireland. Please don't make things up like that.

I wasn't referring to the 6 County state, I was referring to the Irish people as a whole, it is their country after all.

When was the last time exactly?

Collusion wasn't an open policy with opening hours printed clearly on the advertising leaflet murphaph, it was an underground initiative pursued by some very shadowy organisations and individuals eg FRU, Brian Nelson and MI5.

Hmmmm, not exactly verifiable that. I'll wait till the PSNI tell us who they think it was if you don't mind.

I think you will find they are also blaming the CIRA.

That's a pretty disgusting and intollerant word to use. And why put the word 'defend' in double quotation marks? Don't you think you'd defend yourself if someone was throwing explosive devices at you?

Because when those who hold an ideology that espouses supremacy and the subjugation of Catholics march through a Nationalist area they "pollute" it in my eyes. As I said above, the police were the ones storming an area in which they weren't wanted in order to force down bigots, it was Nationalists doing the defending.

Why shouldn't they display their union flags?

Because it is provocative in the extreme and insulting to those who don't want sectarianism rubbed in their faces.

Stranger still, you believe that you have more of a right to cross the border to take part in a protest than the PSNI have to be in the Ardoyne?

As an Irish man I will go to whatever part of my country that I want and I would like to do that without being racially abused. I don't think its too much of a price to ask is it?

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

So now you don't believe that Orange marches are sectarian? Defending your area against those lauding Protestant supremacy is not sectarianism, it is natural really.

In fairness throwing stones and worse blast bombs in response to taunts is not only natural.

Add up the amount of atrocities and murders committed by the British establishment over the centuries and it will by far exceed 6 million people.

Completely irrelevant to today.

I wasn't referring to the 6 County state, I was referring to the Irish people as a whole, it is their country after all.

I understand those in the 26 counties voted overwhelmingly to waive that claim and replace it with an aspiration untill such time as a majority want otherwise.

Because when those who hold an ideology that espouses supremacy and the subjugation of Catholics march through a Nationalist area they "pollute" it in my eyes. As I said above, the police were the ones storming an area in which they weren't wanted in order to force down bigots, it was Nationalists doing the defending.

Dont you mean attacking?
There was a very large barrier at the interface.

As an Irish man I will go to whatever part of my country that I want and I would like to do that without being racially abused. I don't think its too much of a price to ask is it?

Incidently did you take the officers number and report him to Nuala O' Loan?

FTA69

In fairness throwing stones and worse blast bombs in response to taunts is not only natural.

It was the CIRA throwing blast bombs, that was an organised plot engineered by a few individuals. However, when a hated police force and army invades an area, barricades people into their own homes, manhandles peaceful protestors and all to escort Ireland's version of the Ku Klux Klan through a sensitive area I would think it very natural for people to revolt.

Completely irrelevant to today.

True, but it wasn't me who brought up the British Army's record abroad. However, the British Army's prescence in Ireland today is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

I understand those in the 26 counties voted overwhelmingly to waive that claim and replace it with an aspiration untill such time as a majority want otherwise.

People voted for the GFA in order to form a peace process, the sentiment behind it was not to re-inforce the British presence.

Dont you mean attacking?
There was a very large barrier at the interface.

See above.

Incidently did you take the officers number and report him to Nuala O' Loan?

That type of behaviour usually results in arrest and a police station is not a nice place to be.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

It was the CIRA throwing blast bombs, that was an organised plot engineered by a few individuals. However, when a hated police force and army invades an area, barricades people into their own homes, manhandles peaceful protestors and all to escort Ireland's version of the Ku Klux Klan through a sensitive area I would think it very natural for people to revolt.

Some people and mostly instigated by the likes of Cira it would seem.

True, but it wasn't me who brought up the British Army's record abroad. However, the British Army's prescence in Ireland today is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

what you said about 800 years etc was irrelevant.

People voted for the GFA in order to form a peace process, the sentiment behind it was not to re-inforce the British presence.

They voted to make the claim on the North aspirational aswell,it was a vote to ok a constitutional change which got in excess of 90% approval.

That type of behaviour usually results in arrest and a police station is not a nice place to be.

You get jail if you report a police officer to Nuala O' Loans office??
Now you are talking codswallop tbh.

flamin moe

FTA69 wrote:

As an Irish man I will go to whatever part of my country that I want and I would like to do that without being racially abused. I don't think its too much of a price to ask is it?

if that is true, why are you against your fellow irishmen (orange order) from going to whatever part of your country without being abused????

jman0

flamin moe wrote:

if that is true, why are you against your fellow irishmen (orange order) from going to whatever part of your country without being abused????

They are not irish, they are british. Just ask them yourself.

Nuttzz

jman0 wrote:

They are not irish, they are british. Just ask them yourself.

just like everyone else living in the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland......