Sinn Fein calming Ardoyne area

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

So now you don't believe that Orange marches are sectarian? Defending your area against those lauding Protestant supremacy is not sectarianism, it is natural really.

Maybe hurling bricks and golfballs at kids is natural to you but not to me. Likewise with hurling blast bombs at police.

FTA69 wrote:

I wasn't referring to the 6 County state, I was referring to the Irish people as a whole, it is their country after all.

The Irish people have nothing to do with the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Some Irish people live there. The 6 counties belongs to the UK and the longer that situation remains the better IMO.

FTA69 wrote:

Collusion wasn't an open policy with opening hours printed clearly on the advertising leaflet murphaph, it was an underground initiative pursued by some very shadowy organisations and individuals eg FRU, Brian Nelson and MI5.

So you can't say when the last incident of collusion occured. It's OK to just say so.

FTA69 wrote:

I think you will find they are also blaming the CIRA.

CIRA, PIRA, SF, no difference really.

FTA69 wrote:

Because when those who hold an ideology that espouses supremacy and the subjugation of Catholics march through a Nationalist area they "pollute" it in my eyes. As I said above, the police were the ones storming an area in which they weren't wanted in order to force down bigots, it was Nationalists doing the defending.

They weren't on the defensive-they were on the offensive. They started throwing missiles at kids on the other side of the security screen. The police were there as directed by the parades commission to protect both communities and would have left without incident if the scumbags hadn't started throwing bricks at kids.

FTA69 wrote:

Because it is provocative in the extreme and insulting to those who don't want sectarianism rubbed in their faces.

They live in the UK-they should be used to seeing the odd union flag, no?

FTA69 wrote:

As an Irish man I will go to whatever part of my country that I want and I would like to do that without being racially abused. I don't think its too much of a price to ask is it?

Northern Ireland is not part of your country, it's part of the United Kingdom and has been for a long time and please god will remain that way.

FTA69 wrote:

That type of behaviour usually results in arrest and a police station is not a nice place to be.

Now that's just tripe-their numbers are written on their uniforms, you don't have to ask for it, just write it down and complain. Methinks you'd rather just wave your placards around than try to embrace the new institutions like the Policing Body and Parades Comission in this new Northern Ireland. The war's over, Northern Ireland will remain a part of the UK cos the longer this nonsense goes on the more people down south realise what a fcuked up basket case the north is, and consequently how little we want to have to worry about it.

jman0

Nuttzz wrote:

just like everyone else living in the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland......

Not even close Nuttzz. There are lots of people that live there.
There are Chinese people, Indians, Irish, British, Scottish, Polish, loads.
Just ask them, they'll generally tell you what they are.

Nuttzz

jman0 wrote:

Not even close Nuttzz. There are lots of people that live there.
There are Chinese people, Indians, Irish, British, Scottish, Polish, loads.
Just ask them, they'll generally tell you what they are.

ahh but if you are born in the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, you might want to call yourself what every you want, but you are still born british.....

jman0

Nuttzz wrote:

ahh but if you are born in the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, you might want to call yourself what every you want, but you are still born british.....

Not really, because the Irish Constitution contains language which means that if your born in that corner of the island, you can still be irish.
That doesn't stop the brits from claiming you as their own obviously.
Don't you remember the BBC (was it Wayne McCullough?) sports commentator always referring to him as British, but when he was bested all of a sudden it was the Irishman fell! :rolleyes:

Nuttzz

jman0 wrote:

Don't you remember the BBC (was it Wayne McCullough?) sports commentator always referring to him as British, but when he was bested all of a sudden it was the Irishman fell! :rolleyes:

Or Eddie Irvine, when he was in line for a world championship he became a british driver

The thing is you cant be born in the same city as someone else and claim to be a different nationality.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

They voted to make the claim on the North aspirational aswell,it was a vote to ok a constitutional change which got in excess of 90% approval.
.

That was completely dependent on the GFA being fully implemented.
If GFA fails, the claim will be restored, I remember reading this in GFA itself at the time.

gurramok

Nuttzz wrote:

Or Eddie Irvine, when he was in line for a world championship he became a british driver

The thing is you cant be born in the same city as someone else and claim to be a different nationality.

Yes you can.
I was born in London to ethnic Irish parents, moved back here to Dubland at a young age and now have an Irish passport, does that mean my nationality is wrong or are you mistaken?

jman0

Nuttzz,
Are you saying that: take for example a woman from Nigeria, and lets say she's 8 months pregnant and boards and airplane that lands...in oh i dunno, Ireland.
Gives birth to a healthy child.
Is that child Irish or are they Nigerian?

Because i'll be having to remind you that infact, the Irish Constition has recently been amended so that the Dail has the right to say that that childs is NOT irish.

Nuttzz

gurramok wrote:

Yes you can.
I was born in London to ethnic Irish parents, moved back here to Dubland at a young age and now have an Irish passport, does that mean my nationality is wrong or are you mistaken?

you are entitled to a british passport, you got a passport based on your parents nationality, being born in London/Belfast/Manchester/Liverpool makes you a UK national in my book.

Is that child Irish or are they Nigerian?

Because i'll be having to remind you that infact, the Irish Constition has recently been amended so that the Dail has the right to say that that childs is NOT irish.

Personally I would class the child as Irish. I know the citizenship referendum has changed this, but thats hardly my fault is it?

gurramok

gurramok wrote:

That was completely dependent on the GFA being fully implemented.

nope it was dependent on the text of the referendum bill here

If GFA fails, the claim will be restored, I remember reading this in GFA itself at the time.

No part of our constitution can be changed without another referendum and articles 2 and 3 have been changed arising out of the authority given to the government in our 26 county referendum.

So your statement that the original text will be restored is incorrect.

gurramok

Nuttzz wrote:

you are entitled to a british passport, you got a passport based on your parents nationality, being born in London/Belfast/Manchester/Liverpool makes you a UK national in my book.

Yes, i am entitled to Irish or British(was before i took Irish passport) citizenship. It still holds that if i have a kid born in England, that kid is entitled to either Irish or British citizenship.

Earthman wrote:

So your statement that the original text will be restored is incorrect.

Yes, its not automatically inserted back once the agreement fails but the dropping of the articles was a condition passed as part of the overall agreement.

FTA69

You get jail if you report a police officer to Nuala O' Loans office??
Now you are talking codswallop tbh.

When did I say you'd be sent to "jail"? I said that you'd be arrested over some trumped up charge and taken to the police station for a few hours, the treatment that is meted out there is far from friendly I might add. A buddy of mine from Omagh was arrested while taking photos of a protest by the PSNI under the provisions of an Act that doesn't even exist. He was assaulted and the police were trying to force him to identify Ógra Shinn Féin members they had collected photos of. He refused, he was then assaulted and manhandled/slapped and was temporarily housed in Maghaberry with a Loyalist prisoner. So please forgive me if I don't feel like antagonising the police by taking their badge number etc.

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

When did I say you'd be sent to "jail"? I said that you'd be arrested over some trumped up charge and taken to the police station for a few hours,

arrested for reporting something to O'loans office? Complete codswallop

the treatment that is meted out there is far from friendly I might add. A buddy of mine from Omagh was arrested while taking photos of a protest by the PSNI under the provisions of an Act that doesn't even exist. He was assaulted and the police were trying to force him to identify Ógra Shinn Féin members they had collected photos of. He refused, he was then assaulted and manhandled/slapped and was temporarily housed in Maghaberry with a Loyalist prisoner. So please forgive me if I don't feel like antagonising the police by taking their badge number etc.

And did he go to the ombudsmans office with the evidence of the physical effects of the assault either?
The badges are on the uniform and people do use them to report to O' Loans office

FTA69

Maybe hurling bricks and golfballs at kids is natural to you but not to me. Likewise with hurling blast bombs at police.

Orange marches aren't simply affairs of youthful gaiety as you seem to be insinuating, they are entirely sectarian in their makeup and I have no sympathy for anyone who is a part of one.

The Irish people have nothing to do with the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Some Irish people live there. The 6 counties belongs to the UK and the longer that situation remains the better IMO.

By that logic there was no such thing as the "Irish people" before 1922 as they were all happy Britons at the time. Ireland is a distinct and historic nation that encompasses this entire island.

So you can't say when the last incident of collusion occured. It's OK to just say so.

And what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that the above is some sort of proof that collusion did not take place? Or that the apparatus of that policy are not still in existence.

CIRA, PIRA, SF, no difference really.

Now are you simply displaying your ignorance of Republican politics really. The CIRA and RSF left the movement in 1986 under extremely bitter circumstances and the two movements remain hostile today. They continually lambast us as "sell-outs" and "traitors" as well as accusing us of intimidating them all over the country. So I don't see how there is "no difference", don't pontificate on issues of which you clearly know nothing about.

They weren't on the defensive-they were on the offensive. They started throwing missiles at kids on the other side of the security screen. The police were there as directed by the parades commission to protect both communities and would have left without incident if the scumbags hadn't started throwing bricks at kids.

It wasn't a march of "kids", it was a march of bigots, young and old. I already pointed out that the original offensiveness came from Loyalist supremacists who insisted on flaunting their sectarianism, as well as the police who were accomodating this carry-on.

They live in the UK-they should be used to seeing the odd union flag, no?

The odd union flag? How about screaming marches of hundreds of people who despise them, and who are displaying pendants of those who murdered them en masse in the past? Would you feel Republicans have the right to march past Jerry McCabe's house blaring "Free the Castlerea 5" and "The Scourge of the Branchmen"? (Hypothetical question of course)

Now that's just tripe-their numbers are written on their uniforms, you don't have to ask for it, just write it down and complain. Methinks you'd rather just wave your placards around than try to embrace the new institutions like the Policing Body and Parades Comission in this new Northern Ireland.

I'd love a situation where I could pursue the channels of accountable policing, I just don't want a beating for my trouble.

FTA69

arrested for reporting something to O'loans office? Complete codswallop

Would you actually read my posts before commenting on them because you seem unable to comprehend exactly what I'm saying. I am pointing out that the taking of a cop's number will anger him and as such he will arrest you (as he has the legal right to do) under a nonsense charge. For instance the man I described above was arrested for "holding information of relevance to terrorists" when all he had was a camera with photos of a protest (none of policemen I might add).

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

Would you actually read my posts before commenting on them because you seem unable to comprehend exactly what I'm saying. I am pointing out that the taking of a cop's number will anger him and as such he will arrest you (as he has the legal right to do) under a nonsense charge.

Yes thats what I understand you as saying and its a completely sweeping generalisation ie codswallop.

For instance the man I described above was arrested for "holding information of relevance to terrorists" when all he had was a camera with photos of a protest (none of policemen I might add).

Actually I was quizzed by the Gardaí a few years ago for taking photo's around Dublin castle.We don't have an ombudsman here to complain to yet as you know.Thats why its a shame that you are making light of the benefit of having one and a good one up North.
By the way I havent been calling for the disbandment of the Gardaí after that incident.

FTA69

Yes thats what I understand you as saying and its a completely sweeping generalisation ie codswallop.

This is the attitude that irks me, the one that states that because a cop is entrusted to abide by justice that he automatically will. The PSNI/RUC have a long, long history of such behaviour Earthman, and as I outlined above the behaviour continues into today.

By the way I havent been calling for the disbandment of the Gardaí after that incident.

That's handy, because I'm not calling for the disbandment of the PSNI.

murphaph

FTA69 wrote:

Orange marches aren't simply affairs of youthful gaiety as you seem to be insinuating, they are entirely sectarian in their makeup and I have no sympathy for anyone who is a part of one.

So you have no sympathy for a dead child who is brought along on the parade and gets struck with a brick on his/her way home, well done, you're a credit to your organisation.

FTA69 wrote:

By that logic there was no such thing as the "Irish people" before 1922 as they were all happy Britons at the time. Ireland is a distinct and historic nation that encompasses this entire island.

No, before 1922 there existed the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. Now we have 2 sovereign states occupying this island and the affairs of the United Kingdom are none of your business in so far as you maintaining the right to go to that country and protest. You're an Irish citizen, the authorities in the UK are tolerating you when you go there to protest about them, remember that!

FTA69 wrote:

And what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that the above is some sort of proof that collusion did not take place? Or that the apparatus of that policy are not still in existence.

What I'm saying is that you have no idea if collusion is ongoing.

FTA69 wrote:

Now are you simply displaying your ignorance of Republican politics really. The CIRA and RSF left the movement in 1986 under extremely bitter circumstances and the two movements remain hostile today. They continually lambast us as "sell-outs" and "traitors" as well as accusing us of intimidating them all over the country. So I don't see how there is "no difference", don't pontificate on issues of which you clearly know nothing about.

I have little interest in your various factions and groupings, the margins of which are very blurred. You're all the same to me.

FTA69 wrote:

It wasn't a march of "kids", it was a march of bigots, young and old. I already pointed out that the original offensiveness came from Loyalist supremacists who insisted on flaunting their sectarianism, as well as the police who were accomodating this carry-on.

They're only sepremacists if you believe they are superior to you, or you are inferior to them. The police were doing they're job in keeping both groups apart, a job they did admirably and professionally. The police were accomodating the independent decision of the independent Parades Commission.

FTA69 wrote:

The odd union flag? How about screaming marches of hundreds of people who despise them, and who are displaying pendants of those who murdered them en masse in the past? Would you feel Republicans have the right to march past Jerry McCabe's house blaring "Free the Castlerea 5" and "The Scourge of the Branchmen"? (Hypothetical question of course)

You only mentioned union flags. I simply say that as they live in the UK they should get used to the union flag. In any case, from the Parades Commission Guidelines for Parades Organisers;

No dress, flags or emblems of a paramilitary style, or relating to a proscribed

And the Parades Commission can ban parades if the previous year's parade violated this or any other rule of the Parades Commission.

FTA69 wrote:

I'd love a situation where I could pursue the channels of accountable policing, I just don't want a beating for my trouble.

You won't get a beating for mentally noting a policeman's number from his uniform. They can't read your mind :rolleyes:

FTA69

FTA69 wrote:

This is the attitude that irks me, the one that states that because a cop is entrusted to abide by justice that he automatically will.

I didnt say that I simply directed you to the purpose of Nuala O'Loans office.

The PSNI/RUC have a long, long history of such behaviour Earthman, and as I outlined above the behaviour continues into today.

On the sweeping basis that you are saying? I don't think so.
Plus throughout the troubles and up to the late 90's there was no Nuala O' Loan and no independent come back.

That's handy, because I'm not calling for the disbandment of the PSNI.

You are making sweeping statements about the PSNI though which suits your political agenda,anyone can see that.
You are moaning about incidents apparently that you didnt see fit to complain to the ombudsman about-a fact that dilutes the efficacy of your moan here tbh.
Will this change if SF go on the policing board maybe before the year is out? Will it suddenly become allright for you then?

tomMK1

there'd have to be a shift in how much weight the policing board can pull before sinn fein would agree to join it imho. Im going to goggle up some info on how much power the policing board actually has before I start surmising

tomMK1

Earthman wrote:

Yes thats what I understand you as saying and its a completely sweeping generalisation ie codswallop.

I can see what you mean there, but I dont think he really really meant all of them. the point is, to me anyway, more than enough in the security forces in the north anyway, arent veru unbiased ESCPECIALLY this time of year as their relations, friends, neighbours who are out marching, wouldnt take too nicely if th ePSNI werent 'protecting' them.

I dont think its fair to say its 'codswallop', because in reality it isnt. thats whats makes these things so fecking awkward for people to discuss - its not black and white cus theres a lot of gray areas.

And fair dues to murphaph for finally nailing his colours in his view that the North is in the UK:

Northern Ireland is not part of your country, it's part of the United Kingdom and has been for a long time and please god will remain that way.

I cant say I agree though.

sceptre

tomMK1 wrote:

And fair dues to murphaph for finally nailing his colours in his view that the North is in the UK

Colour-nailing aside, de facto it unquestionably is part of the UK. De jure is down to opinion to a certain extent (as it tends to be) but since the dropping of the constitutional claim on this side of the border, it's fair to say that the "reintegration of the national territory" is no longer a "constitutional imperative".

Either way, I judge it a matter for a separate thread should such a discussion be required (and if it is ever required again it should contain basic logic for fear of personal smiting) as this thread is about what's been going on in the Ardoyne which can easily be considered with reference to who owns the gardens, houses, streets, hearts, minds and balls of the people in the area or perhaps similar areas without considering who owns the entire section of the island as many people who live there and in surrounding areas are too poor to move dramatically south or east (and may be disinclined to in any case) regardless of whose flag would be waving in the future when the head of state calls. It's a thread-killing discussion and killed threads become closed threads.



As for a general comment on the thread as a whole as is, I've seen soaps starring Joan Collins with less drama-queening. I suppose we should be used to it with the high number of threads about Northern Ireland we've seen in the past year-odd but it's always a little, well, disappointing.

Feel free to carry on with the core issues and related issues of what's what and who's who, all, but a little more this-universe-reality would be nice.

murphaph

tomMK1 wrote:

And fair dues to murphaph for finally nailing his colours in his view that the North is in the UK

Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the UK. I don't know how you can disagree with that. You mightn't like it, but it's a fact . As for the 'finally' part-I didn't think it needed saying but is was becoming apparent that some of the contributors actually believe that Northern Ireland is NOT part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

sceptre

murphaph wrote:

Northern Ireland is...

New thread or no thread please. Not kidding. Reasons above. No more answers to this one on this issue please. This has been your local friendly mod pretending to be friendly.

MT

Riots were as ugly, raw and bitter as it is possible to imagine
Gerry Moriarty
Irish Times
14/07/2005

Republican leaders were not able to control a deeply disaffected crowd, writes Gerry Moriarty

We were in the middle of the small roundabout on the Crumlin Road. To our left were the Ardoyne shops, to the front, down the Crumlin Road, hundreds of nationalists were bombarding police lines with all manner of missiles: petrol bombs, bricks, masonry, paint bombs and golf balls fired from catapults.

My colleague Dan Keenan was standing on top of a wall beside the roundabout trying to count the number of rioters. I was below him on the path. A few seconds earlier there was an explosion that sounded like a blast bomb, although some colleagues thought it was just a loud fire cracker.

Then there was another ear-splitting blast close to the island at the centre of the roundabout. I saw SDLP representative Margaret Walsh being knocked to the ground by its force, but happily being helped to her feet by police in riot gear.

A journalist was lying on the ground close by in great pain. The shrapnel and/or casing from the blast bomb had ripped through the back of his leg, exposing bone. How could the rioters manage to throw the bombs, which are designed to kill, such a distance from the Crumlin Road? Then to our immediate left, from the corner of the eye almost, we noticed objects landing beside us from the roofs of the Ardoyne shops: two or three blast bombs.

The police in their Darth Vader outfits were screaming at us to get back. I ran towards the nearby loyalist Twaddell Avenue and, as I avoided a blast bomb on the ground, oddly had time to assess how perfectly cylindrical the steel object was, how some careful engineering went into its creation. Then there was a lightning flash and another blast, but fortunately for me no sense of any impact.

Whether it was that or another blast bomb which exploded I am not sure, as at least one of the devices failed to detonate.

\A few minutes later as police were assisting the badly injured journalist - whose injuries thankfully are not life-threatening - another blast bomb exploded within yards of them. I saw one police officer crumble to the ground. Ambulances came up Twaddell Avenue to ferry the injured away. The ambulance crews wore helmets. Police were taking hit after hit after hit. They maintained their discipline and restraint.

That all happened between 7.48pm and 8.30pm, the bulk of the violence erupting after the Orange feeder parade had returned past the Ardoyne shops. It was when the British army and police were trying to leave the scene that the worst of the trouble flared further down the Crumlin Road. Gerry Adams and Gerry Kelly, who were trying to calm the troublemakers, were drenched by police water cannon.

Adams and Kelly said the police were too precipitate in reacting, adding that their dousing only served to provoke the crowd. From where we stood, as the rioters showered the police lines for almost three sustained hours, this crowd, some of them shockingly young, didn't need any such provocation.

The majority of people in Ardoyne did not want this trouble, but the most senior of republicans couldn't stop it. People talk of recreational rioting but, as observed before, there was something almost pathological here.

The IRA statement will come when it will, before the end of the month, or sometime in August, or maybe September. We don't know for certain, and maybe the violence on Tuesday will affect the timing and content of that announcement.

What's in that statement is hugely important politically, of course. But what happened up at Ardoyne goes beyond that. It's about people employing potentially creative energy towards hating each other, and that won't be healed in the short term, or by a reformed Assembly - although a political deal would have some impact on the streets.

What happened at Ardoyne was as bitter, ugly and raw as you can imagine. We are told the IRA statement won't involve a commitment to policing; that is for another long, draining period of negotiation. But who then will police difficult nationalist areas if, as was evident on Tuesday night in Ardoyne, head honcho republicans couldn't control a deeply disaffected, nihilistic group of young people?

As we watched the rioting I couldn't avoid resurrecting that phrase of Churchill's, almost hackneyed now, about those dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone always being with us, no matter the tumultuous conflicts elsewhere. Sure, there is global terror and suicide bombers on our London doorstep but that must not interfere with our ancient hatreds.

Ardoyne, with its frightening suicide levels, needs better than this. Northern Ireland needs better than this. But where's the solution? For decades such rioting served the interests of the paramilitaries. But this monster seemed out of control in Ardoyne: it certainly appeared beyond the control of Sinn Féin and the local IRA.

So at the end of the Twelfth the Orangemen marched and the nationalists got their riot. This stuff runs dangerous and deep and can't be good for the soul and spirit of any community - and it's working-class society that takes the brunt of this trouble.

I spoke to unionist, nationalist and republican politicians up in Ardoyne and at least there was agreement that this serves nobody's interests, not these days, apart from the interests of the crazies.

Both the Orange Order and nationalist representatives in the coming days will fight for the high ground on this issue: Orangemen saying we marshalled our people well and stuck to the law; nationalists saying why must you march where you are not wanted.

But what good is that if the struggles over parades are prefigured to continue endlessly, and to twist and inflame ordinary people endlessly.

via Slugger O’Toole

Another sad but predictable day for the North.

MT

So the hate-fest continues. The levels to which sectarian hatreds have now been fomented in the North have reached fever pitch. The loyalists have done their part with their obscene bon-fire celebrations and attacks on Catholic households. Likewise, republicans have contributed with as much zest with similar attacks on Protestant homes and of course their participation in the spectacle described here. I guess it’s the sectarian ‘right to walk’ crowd versus the sectarian ‘right to riot’ crowd.

In a normal society compromise and agreement are seen as good things but not in the ‘victimised’ neurosis that passes for society in the North. No, in Europe’s very own regional sink estate, hatred and the victim/saint complex that gives rise to it are the order of the day. Ask either group that took part in this bonfire of community relations if they bare any responsibility for what took place – all you’ll get is a blank, indignant stare. Because, as if we haven’t been told enough, every tribalist in the North is a victim: they’re never to blame, ‘it’s them bastards don’t you know’.

The marchers believe they’re under threat from a ‘pan-nationalist’ conspiracy that will see everything that passes for their ‘culture’ banned if they concede to even a single re-routing. The summer nomads armed with blast bombs believe that any let-up in their recreational rioting will result in Orange marches shoved down their back alley ways. Both sides share two things in common – utter self-righteousness and a mind numbing hatred of the other side and all they hold dear.

Then there’s Sinn Fein. My, how they’ve worked the yearly hate-fest to their advantage. Just think of the image we’ve been left with. The republican ‘community workers’ that have done so much to turn young Catholics into powder kegs of bigotry are no where to be seen. Instead, the Sinn Fein leadership are portrayed as innocent bystanders who seemingly just happened upon this community festival. Just in the right place to condemn the Police as the real aggressors, the other side as the culprits and the residents of Ardoyne as oppressed and provoked youngsters.

Could it be the case that both sides share a part in the blame for this – of course not, the Brit bastards and the Orange scum are entirely to blame. The same goes for the collapse of a functional society in the North as a whole. In a land of ‘victims’ none have been more victimised than Republicans. Unionists are of course the other side of the same coin. Their siege mentality being the product of delusions concerning conspiracies and misfortunes engineered by the other side. Again, the blame for the North’s troubles lies with anyone but them. That only one set of tribalists wants to ‘govern’ the Republic is, I suppose, something to be thankful for.

And on that push for power in the South, Sinn Fein will probably gain added impetus from yet another carefully managed season of ethno-religious hate up North. In confrontation after confrontation where Gerry’s impeccable PR presents nationalists as the only victims and themmun’s as the bigoted oppressors, the result is growing anti-British hatred in the south. The beneficiaries of which will be the peace building ethnic warriors in Sinn Fein. It was always the Republican plan to use the right mix of violence, drawn out negotiation and PR to turn the Irish Republic into an extension of West Belfast. With a compliant Taoiseach, it seems to be working wonders.

Just look around Irish political forums on the internet to see the growing obsession with the North and British oppression. Northernisation is really beginning to take hold while polls show growing support for Sinn Fein. I have to hand it to them it’s a brilliant strategy. But the consequences for democracy are another matter. Once people in the Republic see themselves as victimised as those in the tribal North, the accompanying hatred and unflinching fundamentalism should see good governance disappear from the voter’s radar.

Elections will become beauty contests between those who can hate the Brits the most and who can best convey the collective sense of victimhood. No doubt Sinn Fein will win every time – what with other parties consisting of ‘Free State lovin’ partitionists’. Tough decisions or responsible politics? Forget it, don’t you realise we’re still struggling under 800+ years of oppression. We’re the victims. Most likely the Northern sport of traitor baiting will become a southern obsession too. Those that don’t agree with the neurosis of mawkish victimhood and fighting the Brits and Unionists 24/7 will be viewed as fifth columnists. You can see it already. ‘How can you call youself Irish’ is already a favourite with those attacking ‘traitors’ that don’t agree with the republican agenda.

Sinn Fein do intend to unite this island – by turning the Republic into a one-sided extension of Northern Ireland. The outcome will be a warped democracy where elections will have nothing to do with good governance and everything to do with rabid expressions of communal victimhood. The North’s there already, no doubt Gerry and the peace-makers can’t wait for the Free State… sorry, Republic to ‘catch up’. It will be the death of liberal democracy – of competing ideas for governance. Instead, Northernisation seems to promise a toxic mix of treaty politics, ethno-religious hate and the delusion of perpetual victimhood. There’ll be a British bogeyman behind any policy that veers from the Republican obsession.

To corrupt a poem I vaguely remember…

So weep my friend with sorrow,
Be ye not merry and gay,
For what the North is today,
The South will be tomorrow.

Sinn Fein in government by 2016 anyone?

uberwolf

I don't think you should entirely overlook the description of recreational rioting. Antisocial behaviour merely dressed up as political action to provide an excuse.

Scum being scum.

murphaph

uberwolf wrote:

Scum being scum.

Indeed, if they had the excuse in certain parts of the south it would also happen here.

cal29

MT you must have read a completely different article to the one you just posted

the one you just posted tells a story of how the Provisional republican movement even its top level leadership could not control the situation in ardoyne

The point being that if the provos cant control the Ardoyne now what chance will they have of controlling it if/when the IRA announce they are going away especially with the lack of an acceptable as of yet police force


If anything it proves that the anger of the Nationalist people over Orange marches is not something created or controlled by SF
People are angry because they are not because kelly or adams tells them to be

It also gives the lie to the constantly spouted bull**** here that areas like Ardoyne are under the control and in fear of SF and the IRA if they were people would go home when the two gerrys told them to they didn't they told them to **** off and continued doing what they wanted to do

Sand

Well the rioting wasnt spontaneous thats for sure. The sheer amount of bombs and carefully hoarded missles demonstrate that the rioting was long in the planning and execution. Certainly, I will not accept that SFIRA was unaware of the planning for the riot.

The article is right, in that there is something pathological about the rioting. There were women there claiming that the people on parade had thrown the missiles at them, and they were only throwing them back! These outright lies wont get any credence from anyone - anyone outside of the Provo community anyway, wholl definitly embrace that version of events. And theyll never question why the Provo idealogy must sustain itself on lies - lies such as the British Army killing a local school girl in Derry, until 30 years later SFIRA "remembers" it was actually them who shot her.

Then that murderer Kelly, who must have appreciated the efforts of the London bombers recently, showed up claiming it was spontaneous and that any kid could make a petrol bomb. No kid that I know can, certainly not on the spur of the moment without materials close at hand. But then I know few adults who would teach and encourage them, which cant be said about SFIRA.

And then more lies about the PSNI who were attacked by SFIRA, but demonstrated amazing restraint and professionalism whilst a mob of scum tried to kill them with bombs, where their casualties included 100 injured and only pure luck preventing a fatality. The PSNI are demonstrating, as recognised by its awards for its human rights record, that whilst there still may be minor teething problems, the force as a whole is certainly far more acceptable than any alternative on offer.

The point being that if the provos cant control the Ardoyne now what chance will they have of controlling it if/when the IRA announce they are going away especially with the lack of an acceptable as of yet police force

And isnt that exactly the point of the rioting? Its more of the same tired tactic from SFIRA "Give us what we want, or else we mightnt be able to hold the boys back!!! Theyre crazy bastards!!!!" Blah, blah fecking blah. SFIRA have discovered that their terrorism is far more effective when it threatened than when it is actually executed, that they can present themselves as the moderates desperately trying to reign in the fanatics and they need a lot of concessions and fudging to persuade them to hold of on the armalites - for now, until the next crisis.

Fecks sake, it was obvious from Adams response to Sean Kellys arrest, where he said the Provos wouldnt be inclined to prevent trouble breaking out, that trouble was being planned - to make a point. SFIRA wanted to make a clear point that, like punishment beatings, they can turn the violence on and off like a tap. They tried the same thing with the bank robbery back in December only it badly backfired on them. But rioting is always safer.

SFIRA thrives on sectarianism, on conflict and on misery. It has no interest in seeing an end to the conflict or an end to sectarian battles. How much money will it be able to raise from Irish America without being able to paint themselves as oppressed by the evil British? These elections cost money, and SFIRAs candidate outspent every other parties candidate in the recent meath election If I remember correctly. How many trips will they get to Downing Street if they dont have a terrorist army on their books? Theyll just be some small ultra-nationalist marxist wannabes without their balaclavas.

It also gives the lie to the constantly spouted bull**** here that areas like Ardoyne are under the control and in fear of SF and the IRA if they were people would go home when the two gerrys told them to they didn't they told them to **** off and continued doing what they wanted to do

Adams and Co head an organisation that grabs kids as young as 14 and puts them in hospital with life threatening injuries, that issues death threats against 13 year olds, that executes mentally disabled teenagers as touts, that can murder people and literally get away with it. Whilst they certainly deserve contempt, I seriously doubt the locals beseiged in a community where such acts are part and parcel of living are somehow ready to chance telling Adams to go **** himself. Adams mightnt come around to their doorstep the next night, but hes got plenty of mates who might.