Sinn Fein calming Ardoyne area

Villain

Sand wrote:

Certainly, I will not accept that SFIRA was unaware of the planning for the riot.

Any foundation for that argument?

Sand wrote:

Adams and Co head an organisation that grabs kids as young as 14 and puts them in hospital with life threatening injuries, that issues death threats against 13 year olds, that executes mentally disabled teenagers as touts, that can murder people and literally get away with it. Whilst they certainly deserve contempt, I seriously doubt the locals beseiged in a community where such acts are part and parcel of living are somehow ready to chance telling Adams to go **** himself. Adams mightnt come around to their doorstep the next night, but hes got plenty of mates who might.

Your saying Sinn Fein grabs kids as young as 14 and puts them in hospital with life threatening injuries??

I would just love to see you prove that, because Sinn Fein is the only organisation that Adams heads unless you have proof that shows otherwise, oh wait you'll just say it's your opinion now won't you :rolleyes:

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Any foundation for that argument?

In fairness irish1 if SF weren't aware who was around ,who was capable of causing trouble and that they were likely to be agitating then I'll eat my hat.
They would have known all the local characters and what they were up to.
To suggest otherwise is ridiculous in my opinion.
To SF's credit their senior figures were seen to be trying to avert what happened to little avail as the determination to cause mahem was strong and deliberate.

As regards the rest of what Sands said,I will let ye argue it out 'till the last man is standing as long as ye keep it civil and on topic [ ie specefic to this thread, that Adams and the IRA stuff in general can take a new thread thanks]

MT wrote:

Another sad but predictable day for the North.

Threads merged by the way.
There was absolutely no need for a new topic to be opened on the same subject given that there was already an active one there.

Villain

I asked if he had any foundation for his argument that "I will not accept that SFIRA was unaware of the planning for the riot."

I never said that Adams and others didn't know who was involved.

I'd like him to prove those accusations.

Also Earthman you said

that Adams and the IRA stuff in general can take a new thread thanks

Well I asked you before to re-open the thread about that very subject but you refused to, so I take it then you want me to open a new one??

MT

Earthman wrote:

There was absolutely no need for a new topic to be opened on the same subject given that there was already an active one there.

Fair enough. I hadn't been at Boards for a while and posted this thread in a rush before scanning down the list.

cal29 wrote:

the one you just posted tells a story of how the Provisional republican movement even its top level leadership could not control the situation in ardoyne

The point being that if the provos cant control the Ardoyne now what chance will they have of controlling it if/when the IRA announce they are going away especially with the lack of an acceptable as of yet police force

Exactly the message that Republicans want to send the electorate down south. ‘Look we’re merely peaceful moderates trapped between residents provoked to breaking point and a vicious police force.’ It’s been part of Republican PR for years and their electoral growth demonstrates how it has worked wonderfully for them.

This article cuts through some of the long running lies that have underpined the political rise of the Republican movement. It shows how the devices were not created on the spur of the moment – they could only have been engineered in advance. It shows the claims by Sinn Fein leaders that the police provoked the reaction were absolute nonsense. Indeed, it demonstrates the utter falsehoods pedalled by Gerry Kelly. But as with everything in the North, people tailor the facts to there own prejudices. They see what they want to see.

This riot plays perfectly into Sinn Feins refusal to embrace policing in the North. By again attempting – and by the looks of things succeeding – to falsely portray the police as ill-disciplined loyalist stooges they can maintain support for their rejectionist stance. Why you might ask would a party committed to peace wilfully stave off genuine reconciliation and subject residents in their fiefdoms to arbitrary and brutal republican ‘policing’? The answer simply is power. Sinn Fein isn’t interested in a stable and peaceful society in the North. That would destroy their aims. They want power in the Republic to give them a governmental platform to force the issue with the Brits. To do so they need to push the southern electorate to the extremes of ethno-religious tribal politics. They’ve reckoned the most effective way to do this is to constantly draw southern opinion into the very heart of the dispute. Then have as many confrontations and bitter negotiations as possible.

As Northern politics is a world of black and white where you’re either with one extreme or the other, SF know exactly what this Northernisation of the south will bring about. Due to the Republic’s Nationalist and Catholic heritage, southern voters are never going to drift to the Unionist fringe of the DUP. Instead, it will be the extreme occupied by SF.

Where an almost personal involvement is fostered through dominance of the news media schedule, onlookers in the Republic have been drawn further and further into the North’s battle of attrition. Once hooked they will be forced to take sides in a dispute with no central ground. That side will be Sinn Fein’s. Southern opinion will then begin to converge with that of the Nationalist North losing all interest in socio-economic politics. In such an environment the ethnic entrepreneurs in the Republican Movement will coast to an assured place in government and a dominant position in the Republic’s political commentary. Why else was Daily Ireland launched?

With an electorate obsessed with tribalism, cultural rights and supposed victimhood – convinced that it is an ethnic block in the shadow of Britain – conditions will be right to foment crisis after crisis in pursuit of the North. As for state institutions and sound governance along economic imperatives – that will all be a thing of the past. We’ll be reduced to the inevitable outcome from an addiction to ethno-cultural politics – the dangerous notions of blood nationalism and the purity of Gaelic romanticism.

Good governance will become but a distant memory. Indignant hate will become the currency of our politics.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I asked if he had any foundation for his argument that "I will not accept that SFIRA was unaware of the planning for the riot."

I never said that Adams and others didn't know who was involved.

And I'll say again that it's ludicrous to suggest that they would have thought that these people werent planning this or werent agitating for it-which is what I said.

I'd like him to prove those accusations.

The accusations came after that and were plenty in number.
It's not unreasonable to assume that Republicans of one strand know what the rest are planning or aggitating.After that, talk away here with Sand or any other poster on what he has posted about the Ardoyne on the 12th.

Well I asked you before to re-open the thread about that very subject but you refused to, so I take it then you want me to open a new one??

I'm not in the habit of reopening threads that were closed for a reason.
Iirc the thread in question was circling the wagons

If you have anything new to add on the overall subject, other than your own opinion pieces, then fire ahead with a new thread on the subject.But if you dont have any thing new I suggest you learn to live with the fact that other people have opinions on the matter equally as valid for them to hold as you do yours.

cal29

MT wrote:

Exactly the message that Republicans want to send the electorate down south. ‘Look we’re merely peaceful moderates trapped between residents provoked to breaking point and a vicious police force.’ It’s been part of Republican PR for years and their electoral growth demonstrates how it has worked wonderfully for them.

This article cuts through some of the long running lies that have underpined the political rise of the Republican movement. It shows how the devices were not created on the spur of the moment – they could only have been engineered in advance. It shows the claims by Sinn Fein leaders that the police provoked the reaction were absolute nonsense. Indeed, it demonstrates the utter falsehoods pedalled by Gerry Kelly. But as with everything in the North, people tailor the facts to there own prejudices. They see what they want to see.

This riot plays perfectly into Sinn Feins refusal to embrace policing in the North. By again attempting – and by the looks of things succeeding – to falsely portray the police as ill-disciplined loyalist stooges they can maintain support for their rejectionist stance. Why you might ask would a party committed to peace wilfully stave off genuine reconciliation and subject residents in their fiefdoms to arbitrary and brutal republican ‘policing’? The answer simply is power. Sinn Fein isn’t interested in a stable and peaceful society in the North. That would destroy their aims. They want power in the Republic to give them a governmental platform to force the issue with the Brits. To do so they need to push the southern electorate to the extremes of ethno-religious tribal politics. They’ve reckoned the most effective way to do this is to constantly draw southern opinion into the very heart of the dispute. Then have as many confrontations and bitter negotiations as possible.

As Northern politics is a world of black and white where you’re either with one extreme or the other, SF know exactly what this Northernisation of the south will bring about. Due to the Republic’s Nationalist and Catholic heritage, southern voters are never going to drift to the Unionist fringe of the DUP. Instead, it will be the extreme occupied by SF.

Where an almost personal involvement is fostered through dominance of the news media schedule, onlookers in the Republic have been drawn further and further into the North’s battle of attrition. Once hooked they will be forced to take sides in a dispute with no central ground. That side will be Sinn Fein’s. Southern opinion will then begin to converge with that of the Nationalist North losing all interest in socio-economic politics. In such an environment the ethnic entrepreneurs in the Republican Movement will coast to an assured place in government and a dominant position in the Republic’s political commentary. Why else was Daily Ireland launched?

With an electorate obsessed with tribalism, cultural rights and supposed victimhood – convinced that it is an ethnic block in the shadow of Britain – conditions will be right to foment crisis after crisis in pursuit of the North. As for state institutions and sound governance along economic imperatives – that will all be a thing of the past. We’ll be reduced to the inevitable outcome from an addiction to ethno-cultural politics – the dangerous notions of blood nationalism and the purity of Gaelic romanticism.

Good governance will become but a distant memory. Indignant hate will become the currency of our politics.

Personally I think you are getting carried away with yourself and the notion that the Ardoyne Riot is some kind of Republican plot to take over the 26 counties

I think you give too much respect to the Republican movements ability to organise anything nevermind some long term strategy to turn the entire population of the 26 counties into willing provos
It is to say the least fanciful

Heres my reading of the article

the Nationalist Republican residents of the Ardoyne were mightily pissed off by the Orange Order marching through their area
Republican Dissidents as they are called used to situation to ferment some trouble Provisional Republicans could not keep the youth of Ardoyne under control

What does it mean if anything it means that the Provos are not just running the show in Republican areas anymore that dissident republicans are not afraid of the provos
People who wanted the end of the PIRA may have or soon get what they wanted what they may also get is RIRA/CIRA filling the vacuum that will be left behind because of the absense of a police force

We may have jumped out of the pan and straight into the fire

Sand

I'd like him to prove those accusations.

Youve stated previously that your faith in Adams word of honour goes above and beyond any other consideration. I deal more in what can be demonstrated to be true, and what can be demonstrated to be probabable. As such I might as well attempt to persude Pope Benny that God doesnt exist.

Waste of time tbh. Especially as you go on to *agree* that SFIRA did know about the riot in advance.

I think you give too much respect to the Republican movements ability to organise anything nevermind some long term strategy to turn the entire population of the 26 counties into willing provos

What does it mean if anything it means that the Provos are not just running the show in Republican areas anymore that dissident republicans are not afraid of the provos
People who wanted the end of the PIRA may have or soon get what they wanted what they may also get is RIRA/CIRA filling the vacuum that will be left behind because of the absense of a police force

We may have jumped out of the pan and straight into the fire

[Sarcasm]Theres no public relations campaign to get us to vote SFIRA, but god almighty!!!! We better for SFIRA quick and give them whatever they want and hope they can hold those mad boyos off us....theyre crazy!!!!![/Sarcasm]

Ahum.

FTA69

Again Sand we see you concocting conspiracies and bending reality to suit your completely misguided views of a movement you have no experience of, or clearly know nothing about.

Well the rioting wasnt spontaneous thats for sure. The sheer amount of bombs and carefully hoarded missles demonstrate that the rioting was long in the planning and execution. Certainly, I will not accept that SFIRA was unaware of the planning for the riot.

The bombs were thrown by the Continuity IRA, an entirely seperate organisation completely at odds with the Republican Movement. Even the police are admitting that but yet you choose to ignore those who you wholeheartedly support in order to pin the blame on those whom were clearly blameless in this affair. You saw the footage I'm sure, of Gerry Adams and Gerry Kelly trying to restrain the rioters, I'm also sure you saw them being told where to go as well as being watercannoned by the police for their trouble. Ardoyne was a disaster for us because now Republicans are presented as doing the Brits' dirty work while our political opponents can laud themselves as the gallant resistance and subsequently garner support amongst the youth of Ardoyne. Of course Sinn Féin knew there would be trouble, there usually is when hordes of bigots descend on an area in which they weren't wanted, they were however, doing their best to avert trouble.

Then that murderer Kelly, who must have appreciated the efforts of the London bombers recently, showed up claiming it was spontaneous and that any kid could make a petrol bomb.

Any child can make a petrol bomb, it is basically petrol in a glass bottle with a rag which sugar or bicarbonate added in. It's hardly on the same level as homemade Mark 10 mortars is it?

Villain

Sand wrote:

Youve stated previously that your faith in Adams word of honour goes above and beyond any other consideration. I deal more in what can be demonstrated to be true, and what can be demonstrated to be probabable. As such I might as well attempt to persude Pope Benny that God doesnt exist.

Waste of time tbh. Especially as you go on to *agree* that SFIRA did know about the riot in advance.

I have always said that I will believe Adams until I see proof that he is lying now, not that he lied 30 years but that he is lying now, you have offered no proof whatsoever for your accusations so I can only assume your offering your opinion.

BTW I never agreed that SF knew about the riot in advance read my posts again I said "I never said that Adams and others didn't know who was involved." because obviously they would know who was involved they were standing in the middle of it :rolleyes:

Come on Sand provide some proof, I'd love to see you try and prove your accusations.