Unthinking Terrorism

netwhizkid

In the wake of the London bombing’s a week ago today, I have decided to start a debate on terrorism. Let me first off state that I categorically denounce terrorism and all its forms and aims.

The aim of a terrorist is to cause terror. What drives people to such extremes ? What can be done about it. These are a few things I hope I can think of solutions to in the next few lines.

In the case of last Thursdays London bombings, so far we know from the press to, that these bombings were perpetrated by British Muslim males aged from between 18 to 30. These men must have been so disenfranchised with the society in which they live, and current climate of scepticism toward Islam. I think that George W. Bush’s “war on terror” has created more problems than it has solved. While his aims are good, we would all like to see an end to terrorism in the world. It just isn’t as simple as that, if you fight fire with fire, you end up burning down the whole forest, imo anyway. Suicide bombings are very hard to stop especially on public transport, Would you want to be patted down every time you get on a bus or train or searched every time you go for your mocha late in a Café, I am sure a lot of people would say yes and equally more would say no. What sort of society will we be living in if everybody lives in fear ?

The last few years has seen an exceptionally big increase in Islamic Terrorism throughout the world, With London 07/07/05, 9/11 USA, Madrid, Casablanca, Istanbul, Bali, Riyadh, and of course Baghdad which suffers almost daily. The whole attitude in the Islamic world that a suicide bomber will be greeted in heaven by 50 of the most beautiful virgins, is what is driving these people to it, their plight where they are wheter it be Palestine or Baguba is so bad, that these people, usually highly educated, and Religiously devout see’s their plight as so bad that this is the only solution for them. As a world, that there is grave injustices in, Eg. The Iraqi Occupation (For Oil) and the Palestinian Occupation by Israel, if these sort of injustices were sorted out I am sure that Islamic Terrorism would soon go away.
The majority of Muslims would not resort to terrorism, yet they are scape-goated as the main cause of global terrorism. Terrorism is not a new phenomenon, Genghis Khan was a terrorist, Atilla the Hun, and the Roman Empire carried out acts of Terrorism much more gruesome than anything we see the modern world. The IRA secured Irish Independence, yet they were viewed as terrorists at the time by Britain, While they still exist today, their aims are still the same to secure full Irish unity and Independence, While their aims are good, I would love to see a United Ireland, their actions unfortunately nowadays can not warrant the same praise. They seem more like Al-Capone’s crew than anything else.

I feel if Terrorism is to be eradicated from the world, Several steps should be taken, A more passive negotiating type of attitude should be taken. Blow up the terrorists and you only create a new generation of them. People should never under-estimate the word Revenge. In the case of Palestine a more progressive attitude should be taken, Israel has created this farce, they should be made right it. They are now looking for $2.5 billion Compo for pulling out of the Gaza strip, instead they should be made pay the Palestinians compensation for what they have done to them. I am sure that if this happened and Palestine acquired full independence, a lot of Terrorism would disappear from the world stage.

What are your thoughts on my thinking and thoughts ?

[EDIT] Mods/Admins if you think that this is the wrong place for this thread please feel free to move it. Although politics and terrorism are inadvertantly linked. [EDIT]

oscarBravo

netwhizkid wrote:

These men must have been so disenfranchised with the society in which they live, and current climate of scepticism toward Islam.

I don't know what you think can be solved by jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows for certain what motivated these bombings. Until we do, speculation is probably counter-productive.

netwhizkid wrote:

The whole attitude in the Islamic world that a suicide bomber will be greeted in heaven by 50 of the most beautiful virgins, is what is driving these people to it

Riight. Tell me: how exactly does that idea motivate female suicide bombers?

netwhizkid

Originally Posted by oscarBravo
Riight. Tell me: how exactly does that idea motivate female suicide bombers?

i'm afraid i can't answer that one, but the majority of those bombers are male aren't they ?

SkepticOne

I think the correct response is no response. The events in London change nothing. The causes that motivated the bombers, whatever those causes might be, remain the same as they were before the bombing. Killing innocent people should not provoke a re-examination of issues that the bombers purport to care about.

I think there's a tendency among people to project their personal values onto events like the London bombings. Some of those who were against the war in Iraq use the bombings as a way of illustrating their belief about the wrongness of that war. Why, they ask, would people willingly blow up innocent men, women and children if they were not given good cause to do so by the government?

However, innocent people were also bown up in the Oklahoma bombings by the right-wing nutter, McVeigh. People also died in Tokyo subway trains from poisonings by religious loons.

The point I'm making is that any negotiation is counter productive and morally questionable. If action is to be taken, for example, on the Israeli occupation of Palestine, then this should be done purely on the rights and wrongs of that particular issue. Under no circumstances, however, should it be done in an attempt to appease lunatics.

Hobbes

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't know what you think can be solved by jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows for certain what motivated these bombings.

Indeed. I recall on my blog jaunt that one tinfoil hatter claiming that they were setup with deliveries not knowing they were bombs (must see if I can dig the link out again, it was funny to read).

Riight. Tell me: how exactly does that idea motivate female suicide bombers?

Male virgins?

netwhizkid

netwhizkid wrote:

These men must have been so disenfranchised with the society in which they live, and current climate of scepticism toward Islam.

I personally think they were brainwashed mooney style by their handlers.I'll bet the handlers are laughing at their "blessed recruits" I feel sorry for them.

The last few years has seen an exceptionally big increase in Islamic Terrorism throughout the world, With London 07/07/05, 9/11 USA, Madrid, Casablanca, Istanbul, Bali, Riyadh, and of course Baghdad which suffers almost daily. The whole attitude in the Islamic world that a suicide bomber will be greeted in heaven by 50 of the most beautiful virgins, is what is driving these people to it, their plight where they are wheter it be Palestine or Baguba is so bad, that these people, usually highly educated, and Religiously devout see’s their plight as so bad that this is the only solution for them. As a world, that there is grave injustices in, Eg. The Iraqi Occupation (For Oil) and the Palestinian Occupation by Israel, if these sort of injustices were sorted out I am sure that Islamic Terrorism would soon go away.

I'd imagine if the Iraqi suicide bombers keep blowing up hundreds of Iraqi's every other day, they will soon lose support.How many children did they kill on Wenesday in Baghdad?

The majority of Muslims would not resort to terrorism, yet they are scape-goated as the main cause of global terrorism.

Most condemn it as an afront to Islam and against the religion.

Zombrex

netwhizkid wrote:

The whole attitude in the Islamic world that a suicide bomber will be greeted in heaven by 50 of the most beautiful virgins, is what is driving these people to it,

That is a myth kept alive by the tabloid US/UK media who like simple reasons and justifications for events like this, and to stereotype suicide bombers as lonely pathetic men who are deperate for attention.

The fact is most of the Al Queda style terrorist, especially those in Afganistan, had easy access to women, the idea of more women in heaven would not have been that important to them.

The reasons why men are driven to suicide attacks are long and complex. It is interesting when someone sacrafises themseleves for our side it is heroic patriotic thing to do (Easter 1916 for example), but when a terrorist does it they must be sad pathetic men. The harsh fact is the reasons these men allow themselves to be killed are probably closer than we would like to admit.

iregk

The reason these people allow themselves to be killed could be very simple. Brainwashing. Years of industry style brainwashing can get people to think that their main goal in life is to do this one thing and one thing only.

My thoughts (and i coudl well be wrong) it was a excercise done by the illuminati wing of the British government for the purpose of getting what they want. I.e. more control, access and watch over the population. Orwells big brother state is here...

Boggle

Indeed. I recall on my blog jaunt that one tinfoil hatter claiming that they were setup with deliveries not knowing they were bombs (must see if I can dig the link out again, it was funny to read).

I saw a clip on sky news the otehr day and the family of one of the bombers were on. They said that they couldn't believe it and that the son never discussed politics at home - the only thing he was interested in was the football!

Now, assuming they are not lying (perhaps to cover up their own opinions), then you would have to consider it strange that someone, motivated enough to kill himself in the name of Islam, would have no interest in politics.

Just thought it was weird 'n all...

netwhizkid

Originally Posted by iregk
The reason these people allow themselves to be killed could be very simple. Brainwashing. Years of industry style brainwashing can get people to think that their main goal in life is to do this one thing and one thing only.

My thoughts (and i coudl well be wrong) it was a excercise done by the illuminati wing of the British government for the purpose of getting what they want. I.e. more control, access and watch over the population. Orwells big brother state is here...

I posted similar theories on another thread and i was booed of stage big time. I think there is credence in your Illuminati theory. Very funny it should happen on G8 day :- direct result everyone forgets about africa, thus commiting millions more to poverty and death, all for private industry and the constant drive for profits.

Boggles

iregk wrote:

My thoughts (and i coudl well be wrong) it was a excercise done by the illuminati wing of the British government for the purpose of getting what they want. I.e. more control, access and watch over the population. Orwells big brother state is here...

So you reckon the British Government blew up London??

Manach

I would disagree with the "Illuminati" / Secret Order theory. One of my objections would be this is a very public act, and by the nature of the event would risk exposure of the group.
I would agree with the mainstream view, that this is the work of a disenfrashised minority, working outside the standard tenets of Islam.

iregk

Do I reckon the british government blew up london. Yes I do. But thats just me.

As whiz pointed out does nobody else find it strange that this happens during G8 on a day when the US and GB have to sit down and discuss topics that they have been dancing around and avoiding for the past 10 years? All of a sudden they haven't been mentioned since.

Lets get one thing straight here. GWB and TB could give a monkeys about any 1 person in either of their respective countries. They care about money power and control thats all. To them this damage is part of the path to get what they want. Its not un common for countries to do this on themselves in order to get what they want. Has been done before, none more so that in our very own country!

Manach, the Illuminati has been doing this for years and in public view. They are no longer a secret organisation and if their work is not carried out in public then it goes un noticed and has no effect. Remember folks, the illuminati is SKY News, CNN, NBC, The SUN etc... they control what news we see and hear so they can pretty much make up what ever story they like. You were not in london where did you hear the news from SKY and the papers!!! Ah so what was relayed was what they wanted to relay. Notice the way within 30mins, his first speach in fact, Blair mentioned Islamic religious groups? On what evidance Tony? What are you basing this on? Nothing is the answer apart from the fact that he knows the public will take this up and run with it hence deflecting attention.

SkepticOne

Or maybe thats what they want you to think...

Sherlock

I also think that the british government blew up London, also that the American government organised the 9/11 attacks using their employee Osama Bin Laden. The Madrid bombings were a joint British/US attack. Abu Mosad Al Zarqwai is working for the US goverment as his continual organization of attacks in Iraq justify their continued presence in the country. Anyone else got info they can share?

Boggles

iregk wrote:

Do I reckon the british government blew up london. Yes I do. But thats just me.

As whiz pointed out does nobody else find it strange that this happens during G8 on a day when the US and GB have to sit down and discuss topics that they have been dancing around and avoiding for the past 10 years? All of a sudden they haven't been mentioned since.

Ok let us employ some LOGIC. Why would it seem strange that they decide to bomb London on the day the G8 conference started? Well from the bombers perspective it’s the perfect time. All attention is focused on Edinborough and its security, which included sending 10,000 police to stop a few hundred unwashed hippies from smashing up burger king. London is only down the road and the world press is already there thus maximising coverage. What topics have they been dancing around and avoiding? I take it you mean poverty in Africa. The continent of Africa is a lot more complicated then washed up rock stars would have you believe. Corruption, Culture and War are the main problems and cancelling debt and increasing aid will not tackle these problems sufficiently. Firing money and letting corrupt governments off the hook in terms of debt will just increase their power. The majority of people in the West don’t give two hoots about Africa, there too worried about waiting times in hospitals and making ends meet. The leaders of their countries are just reflecting there people, if all the leaders came out and stated that we can cure all the problems in Africa but it will mean a rise in income tax, I think the general consensuses would be “sound Bob for the free concerts, but f*ck off from my pay packet”.

iregk wrote:

Lets get one thing straight here. GWB and TB could give a monkeys about any 1 person in either of their respective countries. They care about money power and control thats all. To them this damage is part of the path to get what they want. Its not un common for countries to do this on themselves in order to get what they want. Has been done before, none more so that in our very own country!

So Tony Blair gave the order for this “Secret Organisation” to train and send four young men strapped with explosives to blow themselves up?? I don’t see their incentive, season tickets for their families for Leeds United?? Whatever angle you look at, doesn’t really make sense.

iregk wrote:

Manach, the Illuminati has been doing this for years and in public view. They are no longer a secret organisation and if their work is not carried out in public then it goes un noticed and has no effect. Remember folks, the illuminati is SKY News, CNN, NBC, The SUN etc... they control what news we see and hear so they can pretty much make up what ever story they like. You were not in london where did you hear the news from SKY and the papers!!! Ah so what was relayed was what they wanted to relay. Notice the way within 30mins, his first speach in fact, Blair mentioned Islamic religious groups? On what evidance Tony? What are you basing this on? Nothing is the answer apart from the fact that he knows the public will take this up and run with it hence deflecting attention.

Okay anyone with half a brain knows at this stage not to base there views on tabloid news stations and papers. Any channel that spends 3 seconds reporting on 26 children blown up in Iraq and straight after having a five minute segment on the new Harry Potter book cannot be taken seriously and anyone that does so can not be taken seriously either. Maybe Tony blamed Islamic fundamentals because they came out and claimed responsibility, or maybe it’s because they have waged war on Britain or maybe blaming the Irish just wasn’t an option anymore.

So what is more believable, that the UK and USA have been bombing the ****e out of predominately Muslim countries for the past 20 years and some of these people decide to fight back or the men in black are killing there own people in order to take the focus away from Africa and introduce ID cards. Either way I have to go, I have to buy some tinfoil and I’m late for my abandoned warehouse meeting.

solas

I personally believe it was a set up. No need for outrageous illuminati suggestions but it's not beyond the scope of M15 and the CIA.
with any luck there will be more light shed on he subject in the comming weeks or months.

Boggles

solas wrote:

I personally believe it was a set up. No need for outrageous illuminati suggestions but it's not beyond the scope of M15 and the CIA.
with any luck there will be more light shed on he subject in the comming weeks or months.

Evidence?? Theory?? Anything???

solas

no..I value my integrity too much.

Boggles

solas wrote:

no..I value my integrity too much.

huh?

solas

btw..I don't think Toni Blair gave any orders...in fact I don't think he had any notion.

SkepticOne

The UK and US governments as well as Fox news, Al Queda, Mossad, the Illuminati etc are nothing more than front organisations for the Lizard People. They invented both Christianity and Islam as well as capitalism and socialism so that people would perpetually be at war with one another and they can rule.

solas

this is the reason why I wouldnt give any theories or evidence to the contrary, people automatically assume that to even suggest that it was a set up means you belong to some reptilian conspiracy association.

Boggles

solas wrote:

this is the reason why I wouldnt give any theories or evidence to the contrary, people automatically assume that to even suggest that it was a set up means you belong to some reptilian conspiracy association.

I knew those teenage mutant ninja turtles had gone very quite lately.

ionapaul

Boggles wrote:

I knew those teenage mutant ninja turtles had gone very quite lately.

I had assumed that was because they were busy fighting the Insect-obots that invaded Japan's secret moon base?

Zombrex

SkepticOne wrote:

The UK and US governments as well as Fox news, Al Queda, Mossad, the Illuminati etc are nothing more than front organisations for the Lizard People. They invented both Christianity and Islam as well as capitalism and socialism so that people would perpetually be at war with one another and they can rule.

ROFL

Oh, these conspircy theories always make me laugh ..

4 dangerous and devoted men blew up home made bombs in London, possibly backed by terrorist cells in London and England. That is (by a huge huge margin) the most likely senario.

All the conspiricies mentioned so far are just plain silly. Why did it just happen to be on the G8 day? It was planned to be on the G8 day! Is that not blatently obvious.

Why did the bomb's family claim he didn't talk about politics? Probably because he didn't talk about politics to them.

solas

was that the same guy who couldnt figure out how to dismantle the bomb when he figured out what it was?
tsk..terrorists these days..

ionapaul

Wicknight wrote:

The reasons why men are driven to suicide attacks are long and complex. It is interesting when someone sacrafises themseleves for our side it is heroic patriotic thing to do (Easter 1916 for example), but when a terrorist does it they must be sad pathetic men. The harsh fact is the reasons these men allow themselves to be killed are probably closer than we would like to admit.

I think many now recognise as misguided and reckless the sacrifices of Easter 1916 (most Irish certainly did at the time). Padraig Pearse was a very strange and troubled person, and not anyone I, for one, would even think of looking up to. However, he wasn't sad or pathetic on the same level of the London suicide bombers, who willingly went to their deaths in an effort to get their message across by murdering innocent commuters on their way to work. What a sad and pathetic way for a young man to die (brave in its own way, I certainly couldn't kill myself like that for such a cause, but sad and pathetic nevertheless).

SkepticOne

We will probably never know what these misguided suiciders set out to achieve, but one possibly positive outcome of the whole thing is that responsible Muslim leaders (the vast majority of course are responsible and law-abiding) in the UK and are now examining the phenomenon of radical Imams from abroad and their effect on impressionable youth. No doubt they had been aware of this problem for some time, but now they have the impetus to do something about it.

A Dub in Glasgo

ionapaul wrote:

I think many now recognise as misguided and reckless the sacrifices of Easter 1916 (most Irish certainly did at the time).

Want to share those 'misguided and reckless sacrifices' that you claim most people now recognise.

I find the slaughter of the tens of thousands of Irishmen who sacrificed themselves in the trenches during WWI to be most strange but then again, they are portrayed as heroes now.

As for the London bombers, they are sad and pathethic but they are not the only ones during the last few years to have slaughtered innocent people by their reckless actions. We cannot possibly call the actions of the US & the UK in Iraq and Afghanastan as terrorist... can we?

Wheely

ionapaul wrote:

I think many now recognise as misguided and reckless the sacrifices of Easter 1916 (most Irish certainly did at the time). Padraig Pearse was a very strange and troubled person, and not anyone I, for one, would even think of looking up to. However, he wasn't sad or pathetic on the same level of the London suicide bombers, who willingly went to their deaths in an effort to get their message across by murdering innocent commuters on their way to work. What a sad and pathetic way for a young man to die (brave in its own way, I certainly couldn't kill myself like that for such a cause, but sad and pathetic nevertheless).

While I agree with your contention that Pearse was a strange and troubled person who would have driven any Iriash Republic back into a second famine had he controlled it, the misguided sacrifice of 1916 actually proved to be very guided. While im applying a utilitarian view here in defining actions by their consequnces, the men of 1916 knew that they werent going to achieve independence, they werent trying to...their "blood sacrifice" was an awareness raising campaign....they assumed that their deaths would amke the rest of the country sit up and take notice, providing such a deafening sound that the Brits would have to give in and leave. Sure dubliners hated them and spat on them as the British troops lined them up outside the GPO, but then once the Brits started excecuting them public opinion started to shift. Thats why Dev wasn't excecuted....his American birht had SFA to do with it....he was the last scheduled to be exceuted and by the time it came round Sinn Fein had one a landslide and the entire country was whipped up in a republican frenzy!!!! This led to the War of Independence which ultimately led to the Free State and the Republic but Im sure you knew all that. So if not for the terrorists of 1916 we could very well still be under British rule. Were theymisguideed....i dont think we can say that cos what they planned to do worked. Do the British still think they weree misguideed....I dont know?? If because of the London bombings troops pulled out of Iraq and Israel ceded Palestine....would we still think the bombers were sad, pathetic and misguided......sure!!! But would the Iraquis and the Palestinians.....propbably not. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...this is a complicated and almost impossible issue to form a coherent opinion on....whats the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter??? The terrorist insurgency in Iraq were called freedom fighters by Regan when they were fighting the Soviets in Afghnistan...what changes them...time,circumstance, perspective? Who has changed...them......or us?