Islam inherently against Judaism ?

Suff

Just a Note,

In Islam, Christ (PBUH) plays a MAJOR part of the Islamic faith.
Muslims beleive he is the awaited Messiah and awaits his return.

I'll post some of the texts in the Quraan on Christ.

Kevin_rc_ie

did you say that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an with the words of god? i always thought that Muhammad could neither read or write.

Frank Grimes

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

did you say that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an with the words of god? i always thought that Muhammad could neither read or write.

The various revelations were written down by his Companions who were literate, others memorised them. Muhammad himself was illiterate.
They were compiled into the Qur'an as it is today under the Caliph Uthman during his reign (644-656AD).

Suff

Correct

there are three old Quraan texts in the world today, around 1300 years old.
one in Eygpt, Boghara and one in Turkey.

The Thing about Quraan is that God had promised to keep it from being altered.

Quraan, Sura AL-HIJR (AL-HIJR, STONELAND, ROCK CITY)
"Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian" (15:9)

Therefore all Texts from the first Quraan to our current day are the same, word to word, letter to letter.

There are SEVEN ways to read the Quraan, which are known to be the seven A'hruf (letters) they are accents.
However, this does not have any change/effect on the actual words.
They can be read in a slight difference but have the same meaning.

Kevin_rc_ie

surely it's written in a form of arabic that isn't still spoken today. something along the lines of texts written in english 700 years ago would look strange to a modern person. so can it remain eternal, if it remains in a archaic language?

Frank Grimes

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

surely it's written in a form of arabic that isn't still spoken today. something along the lines of texts written in english 700 years ago would look strange to a modern person. so can it remain eternal, if it remains in a archaic language?

It's in Classical Arabic which is still in use today.

Kevin_rc_ie

really? 1400 year old dialect? that's saying something.

Suff

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

really? 1400 year old dialect? that's saying something.

it's way older than 1400 years.
Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic.
its hard to find the correct date but some scholars state that the oldest arabic artifacts found go back to 1200 BC.
Arabic is the new Aramic as some would say.

solas

However Christ (PBUH) did not provide/introduce any "Life" laws, it was more of spirtual laws than life related.

y'know I was going to touch on this point but I didn't really know how to make it. I figure this is the difference between a Messenger of God and a Prophet of God?

I have too many questions right now but I feel like I would have to study up a bit in order to ask...so I'll leave it settle for a while.

Suff

solas wrote:

I figure this is the difference between a Messenger of God and a Prophet of God?

I think the differences are:

Messenger (Rasool) which is also a Prophet. Deliver a set of rules, a Book.
like Moses, Jesus and Mohammad (PBUT)

Prophet (Nabiy) Does not Deliver a book or rules. but delivers a idea of worshiping ONE GOD.
like Noah, Jacob, Josph, Issac, Ismael and John the Baptist.

Now, this is as far as what we have been told in the Quraan.
there might be other books/prophets that we don't know of.

solas wrote:

I have too many questions right now but I feel like I would have to study up a bit in order to ask...so I'll leave it settle for a while.

No problem, please feel free to ask anything you like even if you thought it might be little bit silly.
Thanks

stevenmu

Suff wrote:

None of those prophets, including Jesus, was sent with new rules and dispensations. Jesus followed the dispensations of Moses and did not introduce new religious laws.

I'd disagree slightly here, Jesus did bring his own rules. Solas pointed out some, another major one I can think of is the whole concept of turning the other cheek versus the eye for an eye mentality of the old testament. Of course "eye for an eye" does go against the original ten commandments but even today many people point to it's use in the old testament for it's use today.

NeilJ

The whole concept of an eye for an eye was actually supposed to be a minimising guideline i.e. I steal your sheep you demand one of mine instead of you burn down my farm and kill my whole family. It unfortunately like everything else got corrupted and twisted over the years. Another area where Jesus brought change was the role of the Pharisees and the effects they had on everyday life, particularly what you could do on the Sabbath. The whole day of rest thing had been taken to an extreme by the time Jesus appeared, so you could only walk a certain number of miles, carry a certain about of weight etc. Jesus said this was taking things too far. Another example of changing the rules of everyday life and not just a development of belief in God.

Neil

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

I would disagree here, as Muslims do not believe that Mary would appear.
Mary (PBUH) is only a holy women who gave birth to Christ. she does not hold any power or status to re-appear.

You said Islam is the only nation motivated by a heavenly revalation since Jesus's life. Thead pointed out that others would disagree eg Christians and Mary. Other eastern religions spring to mind as well.

Your reply is a catagorical denial that this is the case because it contradicts your belief. Doesnt sound very tolerant or open to discussion to me.
The claim that Islam is the one true faith, because that is infact what you are saying, is against the rules.

This may not have been clear to you, however you have been warned already in this thread.

Jews have rejected the word of Christ when they knew he was the awaited Messiah (FACT)

If you say that or anything like that again I will ban you. Do you understand?

then rejected the word of Mohammad knowing he was the awaited Prophet. (FACT to some scholars and is a hot topic from some)

if that insult any person, then...

we can't say that the english occupied Ireland and killed many Irish people! cos that would insult the english!

German Nazi's killed many Jews as this would insult German people!

or that the US goverment killed over 1 million people in Hiroshima, 1 million Iraqi Child as this would insult the american people!

it's facts, if some people have problems with them then we can never have a freedom of expression (in civilised manner)
thank you

You seem to be much more carefull about insulting christians than jews...

solas

jews have rejected the word of Christ when they knew he was the awaited Messiah (FACT)

why would saying this be banworthy?
They did reject the word of christ? (didn't they?)

Kevin_rc_ie

Suff wrote:

it's way older than 1400 years.
Arabic is a Semitic language, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic.
its hard to find the correct date but some scholars state that the oldest arabic artifacts found go back to 1200 BC.
Arabic is the new Aramic as some would say.

did you misunderstand me or did i misunderstand you or are you saying "Arabic" hasn't changed in 3000 years?

Stabshauptmann

"when they knew he was the awaited messiah"

The Jews still await their messiah, its their belief; and whether you believe or not Jesus was the saviour it cannot be presented as fact.

Stabshauptmann

However a thread discussing the prophecies relating to the comming of christ and how well these have been met would be perfectly acceptable.

Thead has made the point as well, Suff is presenting Islam as if it were superior/the one true faith. Thats not on.

solas

ooh..right.

Kevin_rc_ie

it's impossible for him to be completely objective about this subject. cut him some slack. so what if he says as if it's the truth for everybody, i don't think it makes any difference to people that disagreeing with his opinions. don't turn this in to a PC mud hole.

Stabshauptmann

A lot of slack has been given, hes not banned, hes just being given a clear warning

stevenmu

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

it's impossible for him to be completely objective about this subject. cut him some slack. so what if he says as if it's the truth for everybody, i don't think it makes any difference to people that disagreeing with his opinions. don't turn this in to a PC mud hole.

If people start claiming that their faith is the one correct faith and all others are inferior, discussions quickly descend into "I'm right, you're all wrong, and you'll burn in hell for your sins", or worse. Now obviously Suff didn't go anywhere near that far, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, but somebody else could come along and respond to his posts in that way, ruining the thread, and they'd be able to claim that they were only responding in kind to his posts. It's all about horses and barn doors really.

Nevyn

Agreed.

These may be Suff's truth on his path and for his faith but they are not
the only ones. This forum was set up for discorse and discussion, the tact,
tone and approach that Suff has used is not respectfull of other peoples beliefs.
To find understanding through commonailities or at least to repectfully disagree.

Suff

No Insults here!!

it is only stupid and completely imature to start saying..
"I'm better than you, na na na, I'll be going to heaven you're going to Hell "
come on !
no place here for such words, and no one will be posting them.

Judgement is in the hands of GOD only, no one can judge but him.

I only stated what (Christians/ Muslims) beleive is the Truth...(regarding Christ)
and it is not insulting to say that the Jews deined Christ! we know its a fact.
come on, we also know he was the awaited messiah!
they made their choice and they have their ideas on the subject.

if that insult some people then ...Stop! ignor history? Facts?
it's up to you to ban me but that doesn't delete the issue here!

Yes! I stand by my word, Islam is the last religion from Heaven after Christ.
One thing need to be sai and set clear here...

Islam completes the teachings of Christ and the rules of Moses.
that was the point of all this (Prophets and messengers to complete a message from GOD to the people)

That is Islam. Mohammad (PBUH) is known as the last of the Prophets. none to come after him with the exception of the return of christ.

Thank you

Stabshauptmann

Suff wrote:

I only stated what (Christians/ Muslims) beleive is the Truth

In Your Opinion. My personal opinion is that there is a power at play in our lives but that it never spoke directly to anyone. Now what if I were to say that was the truth? What would that mean about Moses, Jesus or Mohommad?

and it is not insulting to say that the Jews deined Christ! we know its a fact.
come on, we also know he was the awaited messiah!

Im sorry you were warned about this, if you had put in the qualifier IMO, or as a Muslim I believe Jesus was the messiah, Id let it slip. But I find you to have little respect for the Jewish faith. I think you show lipservice to christians out of the mis guided belief that most ppl on this forum are christians.

Since you have contributed some good posts to this forum I regret this, but Suff banned for 3 days.

I hope you take this on board that this isnt personal, but we cant have ppl proclaiming a one true faith

Suff

I'll be back! (in Arnie like voice)
and I was
so what did I miss?

any more Questions?

Wibbs

In some ways you can't blame suff for some if his statements. Islam was/is quite intolerant of other faiths. The situation with regard to Jews/Christiians is a grey area at best(depending on which part of the Quran you read). The attitude to idolators and other non semetic religions is harsher still.

Some direct quotes on attitudes to unbelievers
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.123
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.028
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005

Suff

Same thing applies to Jew's and christians!
we know that the Jews claim they are God's chosen people !
now can I ask does this mean for the rest of us?

Christains also!
if you don't take christ as your savior you'll be in Hell!

So it's not only in Islam if that was your point.

each faith state that they are the real thing, that's fine they can say all whatever they like but to prove it that's something else!

Wibbs

Ok so the Jews contend they're the chosen people. Ok, The Christians have the opinion that you won't get to heaven without Jesus. Fair enough. Nobody's arguing with you there.

But can you answer me this, did the founders of Christianity, Judaism, hinduism, buddhism(or any other you care to mention) say that you

should fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. /And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter/ then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war).

Indeed did any of the above say that you couldn't even have friends of other faiths?

Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah

Many more sentiments like this are found throughout the Quran and the Hadeeth(especially in the latter), so saying it's out of context doesn't work either.

Certainly other faiths have had a bad history, but their founders would likely have been shocked by the acts carried out in their name.

My point stands. Explicit directions to kill/slay/enslave people whose faiths don't agree with you are rarely found outside Islam.

As for proof. Surely faith requires no proof. Is that not it's very nature.

UU

I think a lot of Christians and Muslims forget that their religion is based on the Torah and the Misnah(the Oral Law). Muslims follow various Jewish traditions like the non-consumption of pork within the kosher food laws as well as the head covering for women. I have met Christians who even pretend that Christ wasn't Jewish! He created a new faith(Christianity) out of his old one(Judaism).

Anti-Semitism is an excuse for hating Jews - they're not a race, not all rich and powerful as everyone makes them out to be. Many Muslims dislike Jews due to the Zionism situation of Israel but not all Jews are Israeli, are they? I don't agree with the state of Israel either but I don't hate all Jews because of it.

Britain took over Ireland and mistreated my ancestors and took away our culture and language but I don't hate the British.

I have learned to tolerate other faiths even though I might disagree with some elements of them. I disagree with the role of women within Islam and many of their beliefs but I respect their beliefs as long as they're not enforced on anyone who doesn't want them enforced. Remember, you don't have to agree with someone's beliefs but treat them like anyone else as they're human. I hope that everyone can learn to respect each other's beliefs as there is something to learn from all of the world's faiths.

Dagon

"I have learned to tolerate other faiths even though I might disagree with some elements of them."

Why tolerate? Does this not tell you something about your own faith, that you are forced to merely tolerate? There is little love in the act of toleration. I would question any belief or religion where love is not of the utmost importance, all of the time.

"Certainly other faiths have had a bad history, but their founders would likely have been shocked by the acts carried out in their name."

It is sad. And so it is on this very website - we have another board for another religion (most recently Islam).. another sect, another form of separation, another way if differentiating oneself from other peoples, other ideals, other beliefs. More comparisons are drawn, more conflict arises, more misery. It can be seen on the news everyday. It all stems from separation - there is a gulf between the me and the you. Surely we have come to the point in living where it is obvious that we need to stive to live in line with nature, that is; "the art of living life directly and not through theories and words. Direct living is living holistically without the sense of division, conceptual or psychological. lt is not a theoretical exercise of avoiding the actuality of life. It is exactly what the word philosophy means - the love of truth, the love of life. It is not something that you go to the university to learn. We are learning the art of living in our daily life. The free mind is truly religious. It is truly secular as well. It does not belong to any religion or nation. Truth is its 'spirit'. World is its home. The free mind is full of love. Love is compassion. Compassion is passion for all. To love is to be 'alone'. Alone means all are one. To be alone is to be one with all." Krishnamurti