The Truth about Hypnosis-Dispelling the Myth

Clintons Cat

Firstly may i congratulate you on your appointment as board mod bob,
Ok question time.

How much difference is there between Brainwashing and Clinical Hypnosis?
Isn't brainwashing the reprogaming of nueral pathways by the repeatition of a controled stimulus?can't this effect can be enhanced or made more effective by the use of certain drugs<LSD??? i think was developed as a truth drug> and the removal/over stimulation of the 5 senses?

I can understand how hypnosis could be used in the treatment of stress related disorders,
but it amazes me that it can be effective enough to block pain without the use of drugs.Could it be stated that firewalkers use a form of self hypnosis to block pain?Because as i remember back in the eighties the medical profession took a great expense to discredit this form of "alternative" medicine.The veiw that a firewalkers foot is not in contact with the coal long enough to burn or signal pain always seemed a little suspect to me.

Ok enough questions already

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CC:
How much difference is there between Brainwashing and Clinical Hypnosis?
</font>

A world of difference. So-called brainwashing involves flooding one's cognitive synaptic terminals with exactly the same stimulus- hypnotism involves passive suggestion. As the article points out (read it carefully CC)- hypnosis doesn't create a mindless automoton responding to a particular stimulus. People under hypnosis are intelligent problem-solving individuals- asking someone under hypnosis to leap off an imagined cliff would almost certainly lead to failure- unless the patient was suicidal- in which case they'd jump off- one begins to see its use as a psychiatric diagnostic tool, although we're not quite there yet. But that's another story...

Yes, brainwashing can be helped by certain drugs- LSD certainly- but not because it was developed as a truth drug- it's a hallucinogen. It floods all the five senses- thus enhancing the effect of the single controlling stimulus- at least in theory. It never worked in practise because it confused the control of stimulus in the brain- without getting technical, it confuses the brain which has to choose between seemingly equally viable brainwashing paths. The brain eventually becomes confused and rejects both as a survival trait.

Just as a point of interest- truth drugs work by dulling the decision-making process involved in trust at the antero-lateral portion of the frontal lobe. It makes you inclined to trust anyone, even someone questioning you aggressively. LSD simply makes you hallucinate past the point of reasonable belief- which is why it failed to induce brainwashing.


And finally...about firewalking.
It has nothing, repeat, nothing to do with self-hypnosis or self-suggestive placebo. It's to do with a very simple principle of thermodynamics called the Leidenfrost effect- which describes the instant heat of vaporization of a fluid(roughly 223 Celsius for water). Try this at home: get a frying pan really really hot, and then drip a droplet of water onto it and watch what happens. The droplet will skate all over the place like a little hovercraft, because of the layer of vaporized fluid that instantly vaporizes on contact with the hot surface.

The next time you see a firewalking demonstration- examine the amount of moisture that will be cascading down the walker's feet- either natural moisture from the grass or just sweat. This will instantly vaporize upon contact with the coals, and provide a protective evaporative coating. Aside from that, the very concept of evaporation on a molecular level means the highest-energy molecules leave the fluid first- which means it's a cooling effect. Add to that the fact that per square centimeter, hot coals have less transferrable heat energy than say, about 10 freshly baked donuts then firewalking suddenly doesn't seem so amazing.

Just out of interest, the Leidenfrost effect also explains how medieval carnival peformers managed to dip their(water-moistened) hand into molten lead at 500-600 Celsius and remain completely unharmed. Ironically, if the lead was 200 degrees or less, then the water wouldn't instantly vaporize- the cooling effect would not be sufficient and there wouldn't be the vaporative coating. So it's better to have the temperature waaaaaaay above the Leidenfrost point. Another interesting use of this experiment- it's possible to pour liquid nitrogen onto your tongue, have the lower layer instantly vaporize, and expell a plume of super-cooled condensed air roughly 6 m long. Of course, your teeth would contract and hundreds of tiny fissures would form...but that's besides the point...it looks cool!

Hope that answers the questions CC.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Caveat Emptor=

Clintons Cat

Thanks.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Here is an excellent link to an article I was reading earlier- a very good account indeed of hypnosis for use in the medical and psycology fields. It describes influences on behavior, cognition, retention and practical benefits. The recommended reading is very sound as well, Bowers and Norton present a good popular view, while Fromm and Nash's research/abstracts review is a very good starting point for people who are seriously interested. You can check the article out here.

The question is, now that we know that hypnosis has practical value in the medical management of painful conditions, what are its other possible applications? Now that scientists' minds have been opened up to the possibility that legitimate benefit can be brought to bear...surely that's a call for more funding into cognitive behavioral research? Certainly raises some good points for discussion

(edited for my pathetic lack of UBB skills)
Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Veritas Veritas Veritas=

[This message has been edited by Bob the Unlucky Octopus (edited 01-07-2001).]

Manach

Just finished the article. Found it informative especially considering the fact how easy it is to be hypnotized (worrying for me is that those who daydream are must susceptible to suggestion). The article made the point that hypnotism does have uses with the control of pain, but the field must move beyond the public stage-show perception of it.

jmcc

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:
Here is an excellent link to an article I was reading earlier- a very good account indeed of hypnosis for use in the medical and psycology fields. %<snip></font>

Interesting article. That photo of a woman apparently staring at that red dot on the wall is particularly interesting because it is a fundamental part of most hypnotic inductions. Her eyes would have been looking at approximately 45 degrees. There is something about that angle that causes the brain to start generating alpha waves (I think). At the moment that the hypnosis kicks in, there is a slight flicker in the eyelids. (I think this is called the Elmann Eye Flicker.) The photo of the woman with the being hypnotised also shows that same angle.

The 45 degrees thing is actually a major part of brainwashing as well. If you look at most authority setups like judges' benches, pulpits, religious statues etc you will see that they are elevated to some extent. The funny thing is that most of the people affected by the moving statues hysteria (in Ireland) of 1985 or so were basically brainwashed/self-hypnotised to a large extent.

Allowing someone to hypnotise you could be the equivalent to giving them the root password for your mind.

Regards...jmcc

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jmcc:
Allowing someone to hypnotise you could be the equivalent to giving them the root password for your mind.</font>

That's more than a bit of a stretch jmcc. As I said previously- hypnotized folk are still intelligent reasoning people. They may not be consciously aware of what you ask them, but any drastic questions will cause them to self-terminate. As for the 45 degree elevation phenomenon- it's roughly 48 degrees, and the increase in alpha wave activity is actually quite small. A greater emphasis on authority is associated with the manner of speech, dress and attitude of the authority figure. It's thought that this is a vestige from our formative years as young children, when tilting one's head at 48 degrees is naturally associated with looking at an authority figure/rolemodel (parents, teachers, other family members).

That is the maximum one can tilt one's head back without discomfort as a child(since your head is so disproportionate to your body size). As such, a small vestige remains in adulthood which is not a way of brainwashing someone. Brainwashing largely centers around fear and dependence, not the trust which is required for a successful hypnotherapy session.

Hypnosis may allow people to learn something you've been meaning to tell people(perhaps without knowing it)- but it's hardly the "key" to one's mind. For the reason that personal information might be disclosed- all hypnotherapists should be trained clinicians in some shape or form. This is to make sure they understand the patient-practicioner relationship and issues of compliance.

Our understanding of hypnosis' effect on the forebrain may be limited at present, but we understand enough to prevent its potential abuse- which is rightly our primary concern before the subject advances any further.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Savantes Honorum Est=

jmcc

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob the Unlucky Octopus:
As for the 45 degree elevation phenomenon- it's roughly 48 degrees, and the increase in alpha wave activity is actually quite small. A greater emphasis on authority is associated with the manner of speech, dress and attitude of the authority figure. It's thought that this is a vestige from our formative years as young children, when tilting one's head at 48 degrees is naturally associated with looking at an authority figure/rolemodel (parents, teachers, other family members).</font>

If I remember correctly, a lot of the transendental meditation and galvanic skin response techniques used to centre on generating alpha waves. Therefore having the subject relaxed and generating alpha waves could be part of the process. Another factor is that the muscles of the upper eyelids really do get tired.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As such, a small vestige remains in adulthood which is not a way of brainwashing someone. Brainwashing largely centers around fear and dependence, not the trust which is required for a successful hypnotherapy session.
</font>

It is definitely not a way of brainwashing people but someone attempting to brainwash would use anything that would work. A calm environment would also be a factor - not so much sensory deprivation as controlled and lacking in distractions. The hypnotherapist would have the subject in a comfortable and calm room it may be different for the brainwasher.

What is scary is that there may be an element of passive hypnosis or even self-hypnosis with organised religion and politics. The dull, dimly lit interiors of churches with the elevated altar have parallels with Hitler's mass party meetings and torch light processions. The moving statues hysteria also seemed to have similar factors though much of the people there seemed to be predisposed to seeing the statue move. (Since we are cynical SOBs in Waterford, the main statue on one street had an "Out Of Order" sign around its neck. )

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Our understanding of hypnosis' effect on the forebrain may be limited at present, but we understand enough to prevent its potential abuse- which is rightly our primary concern before the subject advances any further.
</font>

Exactly. The process of hypnotising someone is a very simple thing to learn and that leaves it open to abuse. In any case hypnosis and how it works is a very interesting topic.

Regards...jmcc

rowan

In a book on self-hypnosis, the author gives three main characteristics of the deprogramming stage of brainwashing (ie., wiping the mind clean, readying it for reprogramming):
1. Strenuous physical exercise
2. Continuous light and sound stimulation
3. Sleep deprivation

So next time you're at a rave, check out all the people
1. Dancing
2. Listening to repetitive music in the vicinity of cycling patterns of bright light
3. Staying up all night.

_CreeD_

If you have read this far we wish to thank you for participating in our clinical test of online Hypnosis. With the following activation phrase deprogramming will begin, it is a gradual process that will take approximately 24 hours to complete.

"ShanangBo00blyPhoe"

Please make sure to return to this post regularly to judge your recovery. When you once more perceive it as a post on cake-recipes the process will be complete.
Have a nice day.

Ps. yenom ruoy lla deerC dneS

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

LOL Creed

Your post-script was a compelling reverse- statement...not hypnotic though

I'm off to the CPL qualifiers- I'll post a suitably valid (and long ) post when I get back.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus
=Veritas Veritas Veritas=

Paladin

Actually I think three eggs would be more suitable for the recipe, especially if you are going to use less low fat milk to avoid a dry crust on your ShanangBo00blyPhoe cake.

SHAMAN

Hypnosis is nothing but d power of suggestion affecting d human mind.U cant hypnotise some1 unless their willing to b hypnotised.
This just sums hypnosis up.

[This message has been edited by SHAMAN (edited 17-07-2001).]

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SHAMAN:
Hypnosis is nothing but d power of suggestion affecting d human mind.U cant hypnotise some1 unless their willing to b hypnotised.
This just sums hypnosis up.

</font>

It's true that you can't hypnotize someone against their will- although it is possible (with a LOT of effort) to brainwash someone against their will. But to say that sums hypnosis up is a gross oversimplification Perhaps you should check out the leading article at the head of the thread (/me points upwards). It has numerous applications in grief management, counseling, therapeutic use and pain management.

And we're only beginning to understand alpha wave spikes in the forebrain, so it's a rapidly progressing body of knowledge.

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

SHAMAN

Yes but a hynotist is really only telling his paitents subconious to heal itself.Like subliminal mind msgs