The Americans impose their "Democracy" on Ireland aided by Irish Govt.

Hagar

From "The Examiner" Today.

21/07/05
Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
By Dan Buckley
US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.

Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

Under 'instruments of agreement' signed last week by Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is primarily designed to assist America's so-called 'war on terror' in the wake of the September 11 atrocities.

The deal was condemned yesterday by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) as "an appalling signal of how the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations". The ICCL said it appeared to go far beyond even what has been agreed between EU countries.

On signing the agreement, the minister said that "the international community must do everything it can to combat terrorism with every means at its disposal.

"Ireland will not be found wanting," he added.

The treaty will give effect to agreements on Mutual Legal Assistance and Extradition signed by the EU and the US in June 2003. These are aimed at building on mutual assistance and extradition arrangements.

Although the Department of Justice insists that the arrangement merely updates existing agreements, it goes much further. The US may ask Irish authorities:

To track down people in Ireland.

Transfer prisoners in Irish custody to the US.

Carry out searches and seize evidence on behalf of the US Government.

It also allows US authorities access to an Irish suspect's confidential bank information. The Irish authorities must keep all these activities secret if asked to do so by the US.

The person who will request co-operation is US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the man who, as White House counsel, instigated the notorious 'torture memo' to US President George W Bush which advised how far CIA agents could go in torturing prisoners. The person to whom the request is sent is the Minister for Justice.

About 20,000 immigrants, who have not been charged with any crime, are currently in prison in the US. In two recent US Supreme Court cases, the US Government argued that US citizens could be imprisoned indefinitely without charge if the president designated them as "enemy combatants".

ICCL director Aisling Reidy said: "An extraordinary aspect to this treaty is, despite its scope and its potential to violate basic constitutional and human rights, that all this happened without debate or transparency.

"To agree to give such powers to a government which has allowed detention of its own citizens without access to a lawyer for over a year, which has legitimised Guantanamo Bay and the interrogation techniques there, without public debate, is an appalling signal of how highly or not the rights of Irish citizens are considered by the minister when engaging in international relations."

The Department of Justice said it was wrong to say the treaty happened without debate, as the agreements update and supplement existing arrangements, and the EU-US agreement has been scrutinised by the Oireachtas four times since December 2002.

A spokesperson also rejected that the measures go beyond what was agreed between EU countries.

Legislation will be required to give effect to some elements of the Mutual Legal Assistance Instrument. The necessary provisions will be contained in the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill which Mr McDowell expects to publish shortly.

Has any body in this Government got a backbone?
Or is that stiff bulge at their backs just another rolled up brown envelope?

What next? Bord Failte to add Guantanamo Bay to next year's brochure?

Hobbes

this was dicussed a few days ago, although I can't see the link offhand.

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6EACY3-en

That is one of the bills. There is another one which again I can't see offhand (but I linked to in previous thread).

I really must getting to digging out the portions that relate the news story to see what is fact and fiction.

For example...
Guantanamo bay. You cannot be sent to another country outside the US (and G.bay is not US soil) as part of the treaty.

Still some portions of it which are worrying.

Oh and backbones.. If you are that upset you should really tell your local TD.

Red Alert

This is crazy. Can the gardai go and arrest people in the US? No, me thinks. What is in this treaty for the government or for Ireland?

Hobbes

Red Alert wrote:

This is crazy. Can the gardai go and arrest people in the US? No, me thinks. What is in this treaty for the government or for Ireland?

I believe the treaty allows the Gardai to do this. So all those people who moved to the US to avoid the revenue commisioners will probably be a bit nervous around now.

jman0

Hobbes wrote:

this was dicussed a few days ago, although I can't see the link offhand.
For example...
Guantanamo bay. You cannot be sent to another country outside the US (and G.bay is not US soil) as part of the treaty.

I believe Guantanamo Bay is US Territory.
They obviously consider it as such.
So i don't see any reason why a person couldn't be sent there.
Infact, the precedent has already been set. And USA loves their "precedents".

Stark

This is absolutely crazy. The Irish government has sold out its citizens to a foreign power, it makes the Haughy days look trivial. God I seriously ****ing hate McDowell. He needs to be expelled from power and fast. Using non-violent and democratic means of course (just covering my ass in case the CIA come knocking on my door).

Hobbes

jman0 wrote:

I believe Guantanamo Bay is US Territory.
They obviously consider it as such.

Which isn't the same as US soil. You have certain rights on US soil and according to what I have read so far of the treaty they would not be allow send you there (they may still try though).

Also, did you know that American airports are also not US soil and you can be detained there without rights for as long as they like. There are a number of reported instances of people travelling to/through the US being held for days/weeks for questioning and then released with no charges ever brought on them.

DadaKopf

If you're all so concerned, why not get off boards.ie write a letter to Tricky Mickey himself? If you're as lucky as me and he's your local TD, you could threaten not to vote for him if he doesn't fix his mistake (I didn't and wouldn't anyway).

Michael McDowell TD,
Michael McDowell Constituency Office,
54 Ranelagh Village,
Ranelagh,
Dublin 6.

Tel: 498 8084

Beruthiel

Hagar wrote:

US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.

Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

utterly and totally outrageous!
how is the Irish government able to get away with this?!
are they not here to protect us, not hand us over at the whim of some foreign power who would never in a month of sundays reciprocate.
appalling, especially when you consider the amount of mistakes the americans have been known to make with regards to arresting innocents

Hobbes

You can also voice online at..

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=172&docID=-1

DadaKopf

Isn't it also the case that this law only comes into effect when all other EU member states have done the same?

Dreamcatcher

Hagar, thanks for posting that article.
I could hardly believe what I was reading!! It's a f*(king disgrace that this has been pushed through! I would consider myself to be fairly well-informed on current affairs etc, but I hadn't heard anything about this being in the pipeline.
Surely this affects our constitution... Surely there ought to have been a referendum on this :mad:

Hobbes

Reading the bill now, it is not the same as the previous two bills I linked to before. There is more to come as far as I know as well.

daywalker

Dreamcatcher wrote:

Surely this affects our constitution

I would have thought that there is a right to privacy somewhere in our coinstitution, something which could only be breached through a court order.

Looks like mcdowell is trying to get into the guiness book of records for the politician who passed and changed the most laws, albeit those which subjugated the irish population, ASBOs case in point.

toiletduck

as i have said in another thread i hope this makes people understand why the yanks didnt want to sign up to the ICC. when will this come into effect?

zepp

read article 7 it can only be applied when the government approve it.

for any other purpose only with the prior consent of the Requested Party.

toiletduck you post here too

bill_ashmount

It's just another case of the Irish government sticking two fingers up to the people they are supposed to represent. :mad:

daywalker

zepp wrote:

read article 7 it can only be applied when the government approve it.



toiletduck you post here too

Brown Envelope = Approval = look the other way

pete

zepp wrote:

read article 7 it can only be applied when the government approve it.

... unless the CIA are in a hurry, of course

July 20 (Bloomberg) -- Italian prosecutors today sought arrest warrants for six more people they say are U.S. Central Intelligence Agency operatives who helped kidnap an Egyptian Muslim preacher from a Milan street more than two years ago.

Prosecutor Armando Spataro asked a three-judge appeals panel to reconsider a decision last month that left the six out of an arrest warrant issued for 13 other U.S. citizens said to be CIA agents, according to court documents for the appeal.

The suspected CIA agents allegedly kidnapped Egyptian citizen Nasr Osama Moustafa Hassan, also known as Abu Omar, in Feb. 2003. Hassan was then flown to Egypt from a U.S. air base at Aviano, Italy after stopping at a U.S. base at Ramstein, Germany, according the Milan prosecutor's office.

The kidnapping was ``totally illegal'' and ``not only seriously violated Italian sovereignty, but also hurt the effectiveness of the fight against terrorism,'' the prosecutor Spataro wrote in the appeal documents.

Milan-based judge Chiara Nobili issued the initial 13 arrest warrants at Spataro's request last month after agreeing there was enough evidence that those individuals actively took part in the kidnapping. The other six were left out of the original warrant because they were involved only in preparing the kidnapping.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aNBaaOpUpt.w&refer=europe

Kare Bear

They should have had a vote on it at lest.

zepp

well if they are going to do it illegally they are going to do it illegally. they need consent from the irish government to do it legally.

Brown Envelope = Approval = look the other way

really stop being so synical. it is aitudes like that that keep dishonest people in power. By alienating good people into thinking politians are bad the good stay away and the bad go into politics.

luckat

What's the Constitutional position on this?

toiletduck

zepp wrote:

toiletduck you post here too

do i know you from sin?

luckat wrote:

What's the Constitutional position on this?

id really like to know this too

DadaKopf

I'd like to know whether there's a difference in status between a bilateral government treaty and a law passed by the legislature? Are treaties somehow exempt from parliamentary oversight and don't have to pass through constitutional review?

Hobbes

Note at the end of it says that if the treaty is terminated it will still be in effect for at least 6 months and all pending requests in that time will be linked to the treaty beyond that expiry date.

Trojan

Here's what I said:

Trojan wrote:

Under the "instruments of agreement" signed by Michael McDowell last week Ireland has taken one brave step forward towards Orwell's 1984.

US investigators will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy. Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

I am now subject to the type of thought crime which exists in USA at the moment, where I am afraid to speak my mind if I happen to disagree with American policy.

How dare this government give away my basic rights like this?

Gross incompetence and brown envelopes are irritating, but ultimately only cost me money and rob me of some pride in my nationality.

This is you giving away the freedom that our ancestors fought so hard for. For your information, I'd rather British rule than American, so please consider that. Maybe you could have a referendum to see which the majority prefers.

What rights of ours will you give away next? To forcibly sell our land to their corporations to construct dangerous high pressure gas lines perhaps?

I am a disgusted citizen, and ashamed of the spineless Irish we have become, and especially disgusted at my "leaders" in government.

<my name>
<my full address>

Please write your feedback and send it using the links above I think unique emails are more effective as they have to read each one seperately, and it removes the likelyhood of dismissing them as all sent by a single party.

dregin

Any word on a protest being organized?

jman0

dregin wrote:

Any word on a protest being organized?

As in: outside of McDowell's office in Ranelagh?
Or just a customary brick thru the window?

zepp

toiletduck wrote:

do i know you from sin?

ya take a guess what my name is. Hint this is just a shorten version.

YeatsCounty

Trojan wrote:

Please write your feedback and send it using the links above I think unique emails are more effective as they have to read each one seperately, and it removes the likelyhood of dismissing them as all sent by a single party.

That's a very well thought out text, concise, to the point and polite. I am going to follow your example and write a letter to the adress provided on page 1.

toiletduck

zepp wrote:

ya take a guess what my name is. Hint this is just a shorten version.

aha! tis yourself!

Trojan wrote:

Please write your feedback and send it using the links above I think unique emails are more effective as they have to read each one seperately, and it removes the likelyhood of dismissing them as all sent by a single party

i think ill do this.