The Americans impose their "Democracy" on Ireland aided by Irish Govt.

Hobbes

This has an intresting take on it.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sgL9FjzYWWJYEsg7OWirIStPSk.asp

The fact it is being signed while everyone is on holiday was to stifle debate on the issue.

Also this..
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=150153492&p=y5xy54y98

(checked it) not only are the CIA allowed do this, but you the taxpayer pay for any costs incurred by the CIA.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

The fact it is being signed while everyone is on holiday was to stifle debate on the issue.

Bloody typical that isnt it.
It wouldnt surprise me if this an under the table quid pro quo arrangement for something we got in return*

* whatever that is, it will of course be something positive and presented to the public as something got through hard negotiation rather than hard roll over :rolleyes:
If other countries authorities want to investigate something here they should be going through the proper channels ie the Gardaí or they should provide good grounds for extradition.

Kare Bear

not only are the CIA allowed do this, but you the taxpayer pay for any costs incurred by the CIA.

I really hope the current government get voted out next time.

Nuttzz

Gald to see that some people here still have their delusions of grandeur. The country will be awash with CIA agents after this and they will be all after those horrible liberials who post on boards.ie :rolleyes:

This is brought in not only to fight terrorism but also to fight criminal activty such as kiddie porn...Its a shame this wasnt in place to deal with that judge in kerry. You can use this to protect yourself in the meantime

zepp

i have to say it is a positive step in ireland becoming the 51st state.

but seriously I i have to see i don't have ay problams with this bill. Most people who seem against it are pro-europe well 11 eu coountries have it so if we are to follow there trend we should ratify it. Just because it is cool not to like mcDowell and america doesn't mean it is right. anything that stops criminals is a good thing in my book.

they should be going through the proper channels ie the Gardaí

read the document they have to.

Wheely

luckat wrote:

What's the Constitutional position on this?

Bilateral treaties dont slip past constitutional reviews or Dail debates usually. Even after they're signed their porvisions still have to be incorporated into legislation and passed at which stage, presumably they will be scrutinised by the Oireachteas. So going on the fact that the provisions contained within the treaty concerned are going to be incorporated into McDowells Criminal Justice Bill just means that a bill already in conflict with our Constitution is now more so. I couldnt say whether or not the right to privacy will be affected tho even if it is, its an unenumerated right and is flexible in any case, the courts have been known to make it subordinate towhat they deem to be in the "publics best interest". Mcdowells tactics of showing the dail only a skeleton bill seems like an attempt to circumvent the legislative process. As regards specific Constitutional provisions which this treaty doubtlessly violates, I can guarantee that it vilates the European Convention on Human Rights which has been incorporated ad is therefore a part of Irish domestic law. Mcdowells bill was in contravention of this even before this appalling treaty in that granting the gardai the power to issue their own search wrrant violatess Art6(1) of the ECHR guaranteeing due process. I havent heard anything of this tho from reading that article it seems to be a disgrace. Ill definitely be trying to find out all that i can about it now. can someone post a link to the most complate draft of the bill thats been relaeased so far?

Stark

Nuttzz wrote:

Gald to see that some people here still have their delusions of grandeur. The country will be awash with CIA agents after this and they will be all after those horrible liberials who post on boards.ie :rolleyes:

This is brought in not only to fight terrorism but also to fight criminal activty such as kiddie porn...Its a shame this wasnt in place to deal with that judge in kerry. You can use this to protect yourself in the meantime

The bomb is in the truck

Aren't you the naive one?

Hobbes

zepp wrote:

read the document they have to.

There is a serious lack of transparacy. Secret detentions and interrogations without the right to let anyone know? Don't recall that being the standard M.O. of the Gardai.

Nuttzz

Stark wrote:

Aren't you the naive one?

hardly..(/me runs around screaming the yankees are comming :rolleyes: )

Nor is there any need to misquote me either.......

ven0m

It's official - we NOW live in the 51st state...... :mad: :mad: :mad:


::: ven0mous :::

pyure

difficult to see how the government is going to convince me that this is a good thing...looks very much like they buckled under US pressure.

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

hardly..(/me runs around screaming the yankees are comming :rolleyes: )

So lets sign up the same treaty with the British and Chinese then? as far as I can see regards to evidence required it is just a formality.

Also the earlier bill I read made a note that in order for it to be processed it would of had to of been a crime in Ireland as well. I don't recall seeing this on this bill.

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

So lets sign up the same treaty with the British and Chinese then? as far as I can see regards to evidence required it is just a formality.

Also the earlier bill I read made a note that in order for it to be processed it would of had to of been a crime in Ireland as well. I don't recall seeing this on this bill.

cross post from AH but what the hell

If the bill passes can we expect you to launch a supreme court objection to this, or are you just going to pi$$ and moan about it on an anonymous website?

Hobbes

Don't know why you felt the need to cross post that. I had already replied to you.

DadaKopf

McDowell's on the radio now, discussing the treaty (13:22)

Hobbes

DadaKopf wrote:

McDowell's on the radio now, discussing the treaty (13:22)

Can anyone get a copy of the audio?

zepp

article 3

Article 3
Article 3
Limitations on Assistance
1. The Central Authority of the Requested Party may deny assistance if:
(a) the Requested Party is of the opinion that the request, if granted, would
impair its sovereignty, security, or other esse

Hobbes

zepp wrote:

article 3

(a) Which means what? Would average joe off the street be classed as "would
impair its sovereignty, security, or other essential interests, or would be
contrary to important public policy;" ? Would be intrested to know what it means by Public Policy.

(b) relates to the double jeopady law as far as I can see.

(c) seems to make you safe if you are deemed an asylum seeker for political/military reasons.

stag39

lets have a show of hands for pushing for a general election!!! democracy....balony!!! :mad:

pete

Nuttzz wrote:

This is brought in not only to fight terrorism

Oh it's fighting terrorism. Well that's alright then. Nothing to see here.

but also to fight criminal activty such as kiddie porn...Its a shame this wasnt in place to deal with that judge in kerry.

Why? How would it have helped with the screwed up search warrant?

(Incidentally, there's a rather good article in the August edition of PC Pro magazine about Operation Ore / Operation Avalanche and the somewhat questionable evidence on alleged child porn purchasers supplied by the US to their international colleagues.)

Ajnag

Nuttzz wrote:

Gald to see that some people here still have their delusions of grandeur. The country will be awash with CIA agents after this and they will be all after those horrible liberials who post on boards.ie :rolleyes:

This is brought in not only to fight terrorism but also to fight criminal activty such as kiddie porn...Its a shame this wasnt in place to deal with that judge in kerry. You can use this to protect yourself in the meantime

Ohh the liberals, sorry we dont draw lines based on american politics here and you do conservatism a disservice when no real conservative would infringe on national soverenty like this.
Fanboy?

pyure

question: if our own police force dont have the power to do what this bill is proposing, why are we handing it to a foreign power?
also, if we did give powers like these to the gardai wouldnt it be suprisingly like a police state ??

im all for increased co-opertaion between international police organisations, but this is going to far

Nuttzz

Ajnag wrote:

Ohh the liberals, sorry we dont draw lines based on american politics here and you do conservatism a disservice when no real conservative would infringe on national soverenty like this.
Fanboy?

its a pity sarcasm is lost on you.... BTW who are the "we"?

pete wrote:

Why? How would it have helped with the screwed up search warrant?

someone might have checked the date on it if it was an FBI request

Hobbes

Nuttzz wrote:

someone might have checked the date on it if it was an FBI request

Unlikely but I guess you can take that as humour? Even so the Judge in that instance would probably be able to get off based on the list that allows people to be excluded from the treaties actions.

sovtek

ven0m wrote:

It's official - we NOW live in the 51st state...... :mad: :mad: :mad:


::: ven0mous :::

Na that's old news...happened around the time they let Office Depot taint these shores.

Ajnag

Nuttzz wrote:

its a pity sarcasm is lost on you.... BTW who are the "we"?



someone might have checked the date on it if it was an FBI request

er we as in Ireland, Unless of course Ive missed the change in political analysis here where its all now along Liberal/conservative lines.

as for sarcasm being lost on me, umm sure whatever, Just as Im sure you missed the Ironing.

Why is it liberal to hate the line's of soverenty being blurred, Why is it liberal to have disgust at the national intrest infringed upon, and why may I ask is it liberal to be pissed at allowing a foregin entitys to interfer with Irish citizens under a veil of secrecy?

jman0

The way i see it Ajnag, is on these boards you get people that are conformists, or even uberconformists on the one hand, and then the rest of us that will be labeled with whatever buzz word is fashionable for the argument.

Nuttzz

Ajnag wrote:

Just as Im sure you missed the Ironing.

mmmm, your right, I must be missing something here alright........

Hobbes

You stick a name on people and then use that name to label everyone. So you take the extreme left wing and hey presto and you claim that everyone is the same with that label.

Much the same way Muslim is used to state terrorist (and Irish was used in the 70's for the same).

shouting Liberal is just another way of arguing without having to back up anything with facts (Ann Coulter defense).

solas

Why is it liberal to hate the line's of soverenty being blurred, Why is it liberal to have disgust at the national intrest infringed upon, and why may I ask is it liberal to be pissed at allowing a foregin entitys to interfer with Irish citizens under a veil of secrecy?

why is liberal a bad word?