The Americans impose their "Democracy" on Ireland aided by Irish Govt.

jman0

jman0 wrote:

The way i see it Ajnag, is on these boards you get people that are conformists, or even uberconformists on the one hand, and then the rest of us that will be labeled with whatever buzz word is fashionable for the argument.

Where is your evidence of that??

ykt0di9url7bc3

After reading the articles, I have tried to get my Ideas across properly

The "instruments of agreement" (signed by Michael McDowell last week) Has given me great cause for concern for our my personal awareness of how far a foreign country can overstep its authority (under its own laws) into a country where I have an understanding of its laws and social practices. Not discounting my love for Ireland and its way of life, I am now mindful that I am subjected to now authority of the CIA with regards on how I lead my life with respect to the state & change of American law. Do I have a say in the structure of the american judicial process? Should I be writing to my local US Senator? Should the people of this country begin educate themselves now in the differences between the legal systems of these countries?

How, on our soil, do we lose our basic right where US investigators will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens in total secrecy? How, on our soil, do Irish Suspects *have* to give a testimony and allow property to be searched and seized? This all falling under practices that may not be considered illegal in this country

With all the costs of these legal activities being subject to the Irish taxpayer, it seems that the CIA has "Carte Blanche" at any person in this country without any cause for its effects.

Now for living in this country, why I had to be informed on these events by an Internet Bulletin Board (Boards.ie Politics) on how and where my rights and freedoms are going in this country rather than a responsible and forward thinking government to ask its electors on their input and response to such a change of living with regards to the potential abuse and failings of such a treaty.

This is not a nation in fear, from last I could recall this was an open and friendly nation that prides itself on personal freedoms and due fairness (with regards to our rights and the rights of non-nationals) within an honorable and just society. Where the world can keep changing and turning, why are we now losing our integrity and vigilance to another country lost in fear?

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mike65

Okay kids before any more toys are thrown out of various prams on the high moral ground listen to Herr Flick on the lunchtime news here-

Right click saves As..Right click save As fast foward to 16. mins

I think Richard Crowley was dissapointed to have his bubble burst.

Mike.

Stark

So the examiner is saying one thing, McDowell is saying something else entirely. The big question is whom to trust more, the cúnt or the rag? Hmm, tough choice. It does sound totally unbelievable what the Examiner posted but then again this is an age where unbelievable things happen. And I know McDowell was a complete snake when it came to the legislation banning gay marriage in Ireland.

I can't wait for independant opinions on the treaty.

Hobbes

Still listening.

1) BS on the asking questions. The document from justice.ie clearly says that the requesting country can give a list of questions they want answered.

2) They are allowed look at your bank account (personal details) without ever having to tell you if it was groundless. He makes that clear in the radio.

3) He is correct that the treaty says that questions have to be asked during a court of law, however the other provisions (eg. Reading personal information, etc) does not apply to the court of law.

4) If it is the same as existing laws, why have to reword it?

5) He is correct that people will not be sent to Guantamno bay.

6) The document seems to suggest that you can in fact be sent to a US prison.

7) The guys a slime (impo)

pred racer

posted this to the dept of bertie

Excerpt from the Irish Examiner
21/07/05
Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
By Dan Buckley
US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.
Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.

If this is true, It is the reprehensible in the extreme, that an Irish Government minister would sell out our country in such a manner. Who do you people think you are giving away our rights to another country, which has a proven track record of violating the civil rights of foriegn citizens (not to mention their own people)does the elected representative in question believe that the people who voted for him would want this????
Disgusted!!

Hobbes

Heres an another example of what could happen..

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/11/1824236&tid=123&tid=103&tid=17

Austrialian guy charged in the US for warezing (not convicted), never set foot on US soil and was extriditied to the US because they wanted him.

bounty

if the fbi wanted someone that was on irish soil, they would catch them whether or not we had this threaty

sovtek

bounty wrote:

if the fbi wanted someone that was on irish soil, they would catch them whether or not we had this threaty

Does that mean you think it's ok to make it all nice and legal to do so?

bounty

its irrelevant to me wether the cia request the gardai or come them selfs, to catch criminals in ireland

Hobbes

bounty wrote:

if the fbi wanted someone that was on irish soil, they would catch them whether or not we had this threaty

Actually FBI are only allowed deal with people on US soil. Think your referring to the CIA.

bounty

sure cia

conspiracy1984

While I have no time for Mc Dowell I believe that thread and the artile is off the wall.

Lets not let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy..........


· There is no question at all of the CIA interrogating Irish citizens or residents in secret or at all.

· Nor is there any question of the British MI5 or the French Surete doing so.

· Joint investigating teams between police forces in no way permit foreign security or police services to interrogate persons in custody in Ireland. Only Gardai can do that. And only Gardai can arrest, detain or question suspects in this state.

· All decisions made in respect of questioning suspects are made by Gardai and there is absolutely no legal basis for delegating or transferring or sharing such powers.

· There is absolutely no truth in the suggestion that persons will be deprived of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination.

· Under existing law, the right against self-incrimination is fully protected and it will continue to be under any new law. The existing law is fully set out in Para 3 of the 2nd Schedule of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. This will not change.

· There is no provision for the CIA to have access to bank accounts. All such accounts can only be accessed by Gardai at the request of foreign police forces under Mutual Legal Assistance law.and only by Court order.

· There is no provision for the transfer of prisoners against their will to the US or anywhere else.(See Sections 53 and 54 of the 1994 Act).

· No new curtailments or qualifications of any person constitutional rights or liberties or protections are contemplated.

· There is no “Torture Treaty” in contemplation, as alleged

Hobbes

conspiracy1984 wrote:

Joint investigating teams between police forces in no way permit foreign security or police services to interrogate persons in custody in Ireland. Only Gardai can do that. And only Gardai can arrest, detain or question suspects in this state.

Treaty clearly states that a list of questions can be supplied to be asked and they are allowed question them once it comes to a court of law.

· All decisions made in respect of questioning suspects are made by Gardai and there is absolutely no legal basis for delegating or transferring or sharing such powers.

True.

· There is no provision for the CIA to have access to bank accounts. All such accounts can only be accessed by Gardai at the request of foreign police forces under Mutual Legal Assistance law.and only by Court order.

Wrong. The CIA cannot make the call, but the US police force can. They can then hand over the information to whoever they see fit in the US. McDowell himself on the radio said that an investigation can take place and personal information can be passed over to the US without you ever knowing this transaction took place.

There is no provision for the transfer of prisoners against their will to the US or anywhere else.(See Sections 53 and 54 of the 1994 Act).

There are actually three bills on the issue. Another one goes into detail of moving prisoners to US if charged of a crime in the US.

No new curtailments or qualifications of any person constitutional rights or liberties or protections are contemplated.

See above about personal information accessed without your knowledge.

There is no “Torture Treaty” in contemplation, as alleged

True the treaty does not allow this, but then can you trust a country that shipped a Canadian national off to Syria to be tortured? (http://www.maherarar.ca/)

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Wrong. The CIA cannot make the call, but the US police force can. They can then hand over the information to whoever they see fit in the US. McDowell himself on the radio said that an investigation can take place and personal information can be passed over to the US without you ever knowing this transaction took place.

Could you clarify there what you mean exactly?(I have not heard the interview yet)
You are saying that it's the US police force that has to request the information? (which could easily be arranged by the cia) You are still saying that the information can be handed over by the Gardaí but it is the Gardaí that must get this information? Presumably they can refuse if suffecient grounds are not shown for the want of the information?

There are actually three bills on the issue. Another one goes into detail of moving prisoners to US if charged of a crime in the US.

Would that be a sort of tightened up extradition bill?

See above about personal information accessed without your knowledge.

I'd need to know what input the Gardaí have in providing this information ie do the U.S authorities have to provide reasonable grounds for the information.

As regards authorities getting information without our knowledge in an investigation-what specefically is wrong or unusual about that? I presume the paedophiles caught with kiddie porn werent prior warned when their credit card transactions were scrutinised?
I doubt the revenue commissioners asked everybodies permission before they investigated off shore tax doging accounts or the lump sum pension investments they are currently investigating.
Those are/were looked into without the account holders permission on the basis that their might have been a law broken ie tax evasion.

Would you be against that too?

pete

Earthman wrote:

As regards authorities getting information without our knowledge in an investigation-what specefically is wrong or unusual about that? I presume the paedophiles caught with kiddie porn werent prior warned when their credit card transactions were scrutinised?
I doubt the revenue commissioners asked everybodies permission before they investigated off shore tax doging accounts or the lump sum pension investments they are currently investigating.
Those are/were looked into without the account holders permission on the basis that their might have been a law broken ie tax evasion.

Would you be against that too?

In your examples the alleged offences were all illegal acts under irish law, investigated by irish bodies presumably with a view to prosecuting in irish courts under irish law.

Is that the case with this treaty?

Sparks

Hobbes wrote:

5) He is correct that people will not be sent to Guantamno bay.
6) The document seems to suggest that you can in fact be sent to a US prison.

However, there's precedent already set for convicts in the US penal system to be declared enemy combatants and sent to Guantanamo, so how you can think that 5 can coexist with 6 is beyond me...

Hobbes

Earthman wrote:

Presumably they can refuse if suffecient grounds are not shown for the want of the information?

Correct the US have to supply evidence prior to having the information handed over. This request for information is kept secret from the person who is being investigated. You have no right to refute that evidence supplied.

Would that be a sort of tightened up extradition bill?

There are supposed to be 3-4 bills all related to each other. I posted the link to the extradition bill in an earlier thread. That bill mentioned that the crime your charged with has to be a Crime in Ireland, while this treaty doesn't.

As regards authorities getting information without our knowledge in an investigation-

Your examples relate to domestic issues. I have no problem with this, handing my information off to another country where I have no rights in how that information is used or known it is being supplied is wrong.

As an example of evidence that can get you in trouble. Look at the Canadian who was shipped to Syria. The only connection with terrorists they had to him was a suspected Terrorist years ago had signed a lease for him because his brother had not shown up. He had no idea that the guy was a terrorist.

That kind of evidence wouldn't even get you put in jail here.

Sparks wrote:

However, there's precedent already set for convicts in the US penal system to be declared enemy combatants and sent to Guantanamo, so how you can think that 5 can coexist with 6 is beyond me...

TBH I wouldn't trust them that they would. The Treaty stipulates that the national cannot be shipped to a 3rd party country. Guantanamo is not US soil so should fall under that.

Sparks

The Treaty stipulates that the national cannot be shipped to a 3rd party country. Guantanamo is not US soil so should fall under that.

And if you'd trust to that Hobbes, I hope you enjoy stress positions...
After all, as an enemy combatant, you enjoy no rights under US law, including those provisions made in this treaty...

Hobbes

Sparks wrote:

And if you'd trust to that Hobbes, I hope you enjoy stress positions...
After all, as an enemy combatant, you enjoy no rights under US law, including those provisions made in this treaty...

You make a good point. Could the US rules of making someone enemy combatant (thereby passing US law) allow them to remove someone from the treaty? I don't think it can but they may try.

Even so I am sure the Irish government wouldn't stand for this. They would never roll over and let the US do what they want would they? :rolleyes:

Which brings another intresting question. If they did and Ireland cancelled the treaty, does that mean they have to send you back? Or they get to keep you or keep you for the 6 months that the treaty is allowed to stay alive after being cancelled.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Your examples relate to domestic issues. I have no problem with this, handing my information off to another country where I have no rights in how that information is used or known it is being supplied is wrong.

But didn't operation amadeus originate in the States and based on credit card transactions got without the users permission lead to the arrest of people here and in Britain? I'm assuming judge whatshisnames credit card was an Irish one?
In relation to the many tax evasions in the cayman islands,there was information handed over to Irish authorities without any input or knowledge from the accused.
I take your point though that all these were tried under Irish legislation and the individuals had recourse to the protection or jurisdiction of Irish laws as appropriate.
However in the case of this new treaty, the Gardaí still have to have reasonable grounds presented before theres information sent.
It does seem reasonable for a country to ask for a treaty with another to exchange such information in an effort to close a case against someone intent on doing harm either directly or by proxy(eg fundraising for terrorism) to the requesting country.Thats provided theres checks and balances in the system to prevent abuse.
Surely it would be a good idea for the DPP's office to be involved as at least there would be a paper trail to a decision.
If theres no paper trail or competant Irish procedure to determine whether the information transfer is justified, then yes,I would be concerned.

As an example of evidence that can get you in trouble. Look at the Canadian who was shipped to Syria. The only connection with terrorists they had to him was a suspected Terrorist years ago had signed a lease for him because his brother had not shown up. He had no idea that the guy was a terrorist.

That kind of evidence wouldn't even get you put in jail here.

Yeah I'd agree with you on that particular case, do we have any idea how widespread those sort of mistakes/careless/wreckless/ decisions are though?

TBH I wouldn't trust them that they would. The Treaty stipulates that the national cannot be shipped to a 3rd party country. Guantanamo is not US soil so should fall under that.

What exactly is the status of Guantanamo-Is it even a country? That said, potentially anyone who visits or is extradited to the U.S could be moved there if arrested for what they judge that place as being for.

Just curious but anyone taken by this new law, would they be tried under Irish Law or American Law if charged>?

Stark

Deleted User wrote:

Just curious but anyone taken by this new law, would they be tried under Irish Law or American Law if charged>?

American law.

Ouch. Now that wouldn't be fun. Based purely on a suspicion any of us could be taken by them, locked up without charges, and then finally tried under American Law? Hmmm.... This is kinda worrying.

Meh

Earthman wrote:

What exactly is the status of Guantanamo-Is it even a country?

Guantanamo is Cuban sovereign territory, it's just leased to the US government (they pay Fidel $4085 a year in rent).

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Ouch. Now that wouldn't be fun. Based purely on a suspicion any of us could be taken by them, locked up without charges, and then finally tried under American Law? Hmmm.... This is kinda worrying.

Uhm that was the impression at the start of this thread.
Now we've established that its a good bit less Dramatic than that.

Meh wrote:

Guantanamo is Cuban sovereign territory, it's just leased to the US government (they pay Fidel $4085 a year in rent).

Right thats a further clarification then.
Guantanomo is a third country and ergo people arrested here under this treaty cannot be sent there.

Hobbes

Earthman wrote:

Surely it would be a good idea for the DPP's office to be involved as at least there would be a paper trail to a decision.
If theres no paper trail or competant Irish procedure to determine whether the information transfer is justified, then yes,I would be concerned.

I agree with this, and that papertrail and ability to question it should clearly be in the Irish hands.

Yeah I'd agree with you on that particular case, do we have any idea how widespread those sort of mistakes/careless/wreckless/ decisions are though?

Off the top of my head (I'll dig out links later if people request).

- 100's released from G.Bay as innocent. Never charged with anything and kept in prison for 2-3 years. Northern Alliance were rounding up strangers+people who speak English and handing them over the Americans to get a $5,000 rewards per person.

- "Dirty Bomb" suspect, has been held without trial or rights for over 4 years now. Even his lawyer (who doesn't have full access) is demanding that he be given a trial or released.

- two recently in G.Bay, never charged of a crime died under torture.

- Boston Taxi Driver detained without rights a few days after 9/11 was released a month later. No one knew where he was so he lost his job and his apartment and all his stuff was sold.

- Numerous reports of photographers being harrassed by Police/FBI.

- Various news reports of people being detained in US Customs for days to months without ever being charged. US international airports are not declared US Soil, so they can use a loophole there too.

What exactly is the status of Guantanamo-Is it even a country?

It belongs to Cuba but is under an very old indefinate lease is used by the USA as a military base. So it is not US soil.

Mangler

What are you all so worried about, or have you all been upto no good hmmmm :cool: I also heard that the CIA have the power to order Dentists to put bugged fillings in your teeth so you can be tracked throughout the vast expanses of the Emerald Isle. No matter what powers 'THEY' have.... I will still have to get up for work on a Monday morning !! hahahaa

Hagar

I would like to draw a comparison with another agreement the Govt enetered into on our behalf.

The RAF were allowed overfly Irish airspace by the simple expedient of informing "the authorities" in Ireland in advance. This agreement was made after numerous incursions in Border areas during the troubles. The Govt couldn't stop them so it ligitimised them. The air sea rescue arguement was trotted out, valid enough, to back it up.

Over time the agreement was quitely changed to allow the British to inform us in arrears! So they just came and went as they pleased and simply said "Yeah, we were there, so what?"

Another thought will these CIA be armed?
Theoretically could they draw weapons and fire on Irish citizens in Ireland and not be subject to Irish law? Even shoot unarmed Gardai who might step in on the citizen's behalf?

bonkey

Mangler wrote:

What are you all so worried about

At a guess....

The innocent people already incarcerated, and the extension of such laws to potentially include Irish citizens in Ireland within their remit, coupled with our governments' demonstrated unwillingness to do anything other than ask How High whenever the American Administration asks them to jump.

jc