London Underground under attack? [merged thread]

pete

Sand wrote:

Yes, they should be taking tips on how to deal with suicide bombers from the Gardai, as opposed to the police force which is daily preventing suicide attacks.

Are they? I honestly don't know if they are or not - do we just not get to hear about them successfully rugby tackling bombers on the streets?

murphaph

pete wrote:

Assuming of course that the individual chased and shot yesterday was a suicide bomber. All we know at this stage is that he was under surveillance.

I wasn't assuming anything about his intentions. I was simply stating that the threat of a violent death at the hands of Met officers won't be that off-putting to someone who would seek to commt suicide attacks.

pete wrote:

They don't. They are in constant radio contact with a senior officer who makes the decision for them based on the available information / intelligence / circumstances.

Sorry that's way off. They will be given authority by a senior officer to use lethal force. They still have to make the call as to whether or not is necessarry and that's very hard to establish unless you know for absolute certain that he's carrying a live bomb which is impossible. It's a horrendous responsibility and if you think it's made easier by some inspector coming over the radio saying "lethal force has been authorised" then you're mistaken, unless the officer is some sort of heartless, unthinking robot. I know I'd never take that job-I admire anyone who can do that. It's very different than a regular ERU who deal with people known to be carrying a firearm etc.

Hydroquinone

pete wrote:

They don't. They are in constant radio contact with a senior officer who makes the decision for them based on the available information / intelligence / circumstances.

I bet they're not you know. Some detonators for explosives are triggered by radio frequencies. Who's to say that the next suspect won't be carrying one such explosive?

The permission to shoot to kill has been given to these armed officers. So they make the choice themselves, in the situation, at that precise moment, based on what they know there and then. No one here would be able to take that responsibility, which is why we're here pontificating anonymously on the internet.

pete

my bad. i was commenting based on remarks heard on BBC News 24 at about 12.30am this morning, rather than on the information on the article i myself quoted. erk.

Under Operation Kratos a senior officer is on standby 24 hours a day to authorise the deployment of special armed squads, who will track and if needs be, shoot dead suspected suicide bombers.

Officers from Kratos or following their tactics are reported to be authorised to shoot to kill, and aim for the head to avoid triggering explosive devices attached to the chest or waist. Suicide bombers targeting public transport present a unique challenge. As July 7 showed, if they succeed the result is mass murder.

One senior police source suggested tactics had changed according to the "different scenarios" posed by a suicide bomber suspect. A senior Met source said: "The operation would have been authorised by a senior officer, and the armed officers would be able to self-deploy, open fire if they saw an imminent threat. They can get authority retrospectively. Once the officer decides to shoot, it's shoot to kill."

Incidentally:

In Greek mythology, Cratos ("strength") was a son of Styx and Pallas, brother of Nike, Bia and Zelus. He was the personification of strength and power. Cratos and his siblings were all companions of Zeus.

pete

murphaph wrote:

I wasn't assuming anything about his intentions.

I was responding in the context of your response to Earthmans post, which mostly dealt with the specifics of that particular shooting.

I probably should have quoted him too for clarity.

Wheely

Sand wrote:

Yes, they should be taking tips on how to deal with suicide bombers from the Gardai, as opposed to the police force which is daily preventing suicide attacks.

You might have an issue with the Israeli political *strategy* in the middle east, but it would be sheer madness not to learn from their police forces *tactical* expertise.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/reports/4.htm

New Techniques

Ziad Arafeh, a 48-year political activist who lives in the Balata refugee camp outside the West Bank city of Nablus , recalled he had been detained 14 times over the past two decades.

Each time, he said, his interrogators seemed to have mastered a new technique, said the Post.

Arafeh stressed that at first crude physical and sexual abuse was commonplace.

When he was first detained in 1983 an interrogator put on rubber gloves and squeezed his testicles until he cried out in pain.

On another occasion Arafeh said he was kept in his underwear in a small, cold cell and splashed with water every few hours.

Now the emphasis is on psychological pressure, he asserted, recalling that during his detention a year ago he was deprived of sleep for several days but not beaten.

The Israeli soldiers are often cruel, kicking and humiliating detainees in ways similar to the behavior reported at Abu Ghraib, he told the Post.

Casual Beatings

Anan Labadeh, who was detained at an Israeli military camp in March of last year, said he was familiar with the casual beatings, the humiliations, the trophy photos taken by both male and female guards at Abu Ghraib.

"Three days without food and without sleep and you're eager to tell them anything. It just shows us the Americans are amateurs. They should have taken lessons from the Israelis."

Labadeh, 31, became a cause célèbre after he fell from a third-story balcony while being chased by Israeli soldiers during a stone-throwing incident in the late 1980s, said the American daily.

Paraplegic Labadeh said he was routinely punched and kicked by the soldiers who escorted him to a military detention center at nearby Hawara and then by other soldiers at the center itself over three days.

He said he was blindfolded, denied food and water, left outside in the rain and cold, deprived of sleep and forced to urinate and defecate in his clothing, reported the Post.

"For a person like me to be surrounded by a group of soldiers, punched, insulted, peeing on myself, my dignity was insulted," Labadeh said.

There are around 8000 Palestinian detainees in 22 Israeli prisons, detentions and concentration camps.

New Regime

The latest report by the Israeli committee against torture, covering the period from September 2001 to April 2003, said that detainees faced a new regime of sleep deprivation, shackling, slapping, hitting, kicking, exposure to extreme cold and heat, threats, curses, insults and prolonged detention in subhuman conditions.

"Torture in Israel has once more become routine, carried out in an orderly and institutional fashion," the Post quoted the report, which was based on 80 affidavits and court cases.

The committee accused the Israeli legal system of effectively sanctioning torture by routinely rejecting petitions seeking to grant detainees access to lawyers. .

Yes..........lets allow the Met to learn these sort of splendid "tactics" from the Israeli security forces. This is not the work of Israeli politicians, its their security forces and while I certainly "have an issue" with Israels political strategy in the Middle East I am more appalled by the everyday practice of their soldiers and police forces. "Sheer madness" NOT to copy this!!! Please...

Wheely

Wheely wrote:

Yes..........lets allow the Met to learn these sort of splendid "tactics" from the Israeli security forces. This is not the work of Israeli politicians, its their security forces and while I certainly "have an issue" with Israels political strategy in the Middle East I am more appalled by the everyday practice of their soldiers and police forces. "Sheer madness" NOT to copy this!!! Please...

I'm struggling to find the relevance here to a discussion on measures to counteract an active situation with suicide bombers in London.
So they wrestled and killed a guy acting sheepishly about to board a train, the day after finding abandoned unexploded bombs in 4 locations capable of killing hundreds....


Do not turn this thread into one on palastine or Israel -any more posts here like your last one will be deleted on sight.
If you want to discuss that subject take it to a new thread.

Hydroquinone

Wheely wrote:

Yes..........lets allow the Met to learn these sort of splendid "tactics" from the Israeli security forces.

Let's allow? Does the London Metropolitan Police Force have some sort of jurisdiction over Galway that I've not heard about?
Eeeek!
:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Hydroquinone wrote:

I bet they're not you know. Some detonators for explosives are triggered by radio frequencies. Who's to say that the next suspect won't be carrying one such explosive?

Designed to be triggered by RF, or vulnerable to accidental triggering by RF? Either way, I don't think it's likely that there's enough of a danger that the police will stop using radios.

If a detonator is designed to be triggered by a specific frequency, it couldn't be a police-band frequency or it would trigger the first time a police car drove by. If it is sensitive enough to be triggered by random nearby radio activity, it would be too unpredictable to deploy.

Unless I'm missing something.

Hydroquinone

oscarBravo wrote:

Designed to be triggered by RF, or vulnerable to accidental triggering by RF? Either way, I don't think it's likely that there's enough of a danger that the police will stop using radios.

If a detonator is designed to be triggered by a specific frequency, it couldn't be a police-band frequency or it would trigger the first time a police car drove by. If it is sensitive enough to be triggered by random nearby radio activity, it would be too unpredictable to deploy.

Unless I'm missing something.

You have to prime a detonator. Once it's primed, if it is a detonator which is suceptible to RF, then any RF will discharge it. If it's not primed you could put it on top of the mast at RTÉ wth no ill effect.

Edit to add - I should say that I'm talking about industrial explosives. Which I know these weren't, as we now know. But the earlier point I made still stands, what if the next ones are?
I also want to point out that I know nothing about illicit or illegal explosives or any sort of iffy or dodgy ones. Industrial ones only. Just in case anyone is getting any notions about me.

oscarBravo

Hydroquinone wrote:

You have to prime a detonator. Once it's primed, if it is a detonator which is suceptible to RF, then any RF will discharge it.

...like someone using a mobile phone next door while you're priming it? Or a police car driving by outside?

Hydroquinone

oscarBravo wrote:

...like someone using a mobile phone next door while you're priming it? Or a police car driving by outside?

Dunno, as I say, I only know about industrial ones and you have to have a radio blackout in the area once it's primed. No police cars "outside" because you'd be in a mine, or a quarry.

pork99

Earthman wrote:

So they wrestled and killed a guy acting sheepishly about to board a train,

The point is they didn't kill him simply for "looking Asian and acting funny".

Three officers had followed him to Stockwell station after he emerged from a nearby house that police believed to be connected with Thursday’s attempted bombings.

The suspect, described as being of Asian appearance and wearing a thick, bulky jacket, vaulted over a ticket barrier when challenged by police and ran down the escalator and along the platform of the Northern Line.

Even though he wasn't carrying a bomb SO19 still did the right thing in my opinion. All the suspect had to do was put his hands behind his head and bite the dirt in order to live. I can't see what other option the police had - do they let a known associate of suicide bombers who appears to be carrying out an attack get away from them and possibly massacre dozens of people or do they kill one man even though they don't know for certain whether or not he's wearing a bomb belt? Not a decision I'd like to have to make.

THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT
# Anti-terrorist police have a policy, codenamed Operation Kratos, for dealing with suspected suicide bombers. At its most extreme, it involves shooting at the head

# Armed officers in England and Wales aim at the chest, but bombers hit in the chest can still trigger explosives

# Once a person is judged a serious risk to the public armed police can open fire

# They can only open fire while on duty when absolutely necessary and when traditional methods have tried and failed, or are unlikely to succeed

# Police are expected to identify themselves as armed officers and warn of their intent to use firearms

# They must give sufficient time for a suspect to observe the warning, unless that puts anyone at risk

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1705147,00.html

oscarBravo

Hydroquinone wrote:

Dunno, as I say, I only know about industrial ones and you have to have a radio blackout in the area once it's primed. No police cars "outside" because you'd be in a mine, or a quarry.

That's pretty much my point. Any such detonators would be utterly impractical for terrorism purposes, because they're not in a position to impose a radio blackout.

Hydroquinone

oscarBravo wrote:

That's pretty much my point. Any such detonators would be utterly impractical for terrorism purposes, because they're not in a position to impose a radio blackout.

Did you not read the bit where I said it needed to be primed?

Take it wherever you like, prime it and then any radio frequency would set it off.
If you corner someone with such a thing, what's to stop him priming it there and teen?
Which was pretty much my point.

mike65

Latest news is'nt good (for the police)

from bbc.

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police...

...The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

There's some speculation about the identity of the men who followed this guy.

The man was followed from location under surveillance so who was he I wonder?

Mike.

oscarBravo

Hydroquinone wrote:

Did you not read the bit where I said it needed to be primed?

What's involved in priming it? Is it something that can be done quickly and easily while the detonator is attached to explosives in a rucksack?

I don't doubt the possibilty of using this type of detonator; merely the likelihood.

mike65 wrote:

Latest news is'nt good (for the police)

That is a tragedy. That said, the victim is not without a measure of blame: at the very least, he acted with unbelievable stupidity.

murphaph

I don't know what to make of all this. Still not enough detail from the police as to why he was shot to make my mind up.

murphaph

oscarBravo wrote:

...the victim is not without a measure of blame: at the very least, he acted with unbelievable stupidity.

What if he was mentally unstable? This case is gonna open up a whole can of legal worms.

sovtek

oscarBravo wrote:

That said, the victim is not without a measure of blame: at the very least, he acted with unbelievable stupidity.

That's a very harsh punishment for running from the cops...what if he was just afraid of getting deported or something related to an immigration violation?

Sand

Latest news is'nt good (for the police)

If he was under surveillance in the first place, the police must had reason to believe he was dangerous.

The mistake that was made was his, when he ran. After that, the police acted totally in line with what they knew, especially when he tried to board a train that suicide bombers had been blowing up and attempting to blow up for the past few weeks.

Its a disaster in terms of PR with Muslim youths who wont accept it wasnt anything other than a malicious execution but I cant fault the cops for the decisions they made based on the infomation that we know they had at the time.

Red Alert

It's a split second call and I can't fault the policeman either for what he did - he just carried out what he'd been trained to do and possibly protected a lot of people from being killed.

The guy broke a police cordon at the station as well, so he made his bed.

simu

sovtek wrote:

That's a very harsh punishment for running from the cops...what if he was just afraid of getting deported or something related to an immigration violation?

Exactly. Or maybe he panicked or any of a hundred reasons. You can't kill people for not acting according to how some police handbook states they should. Horrifying story.

Villain

What I'd like to know is why they let him get as far as the tube station, they had his house under survalliance because one of the rug sacks that failed to explode on thursday had his address in it. He was followed when he left his house, he got a bus to the tube station and only was only after he had entered the tube station that the officers identified themselves, surely they should had arrested him before he got on the bus???

Sand

Exactly. Or maybe he panicked or any of a hundred reasons. You can't kill people for not acting according to how some police handbook states they should. Horrifying story.

The worst possible scenario from shooting a man under surveillance who makes a break for an underground...one dead.

The worst possible scenario from not shooting and allowing him to either board the train and/or trigger explosives....dozens dead.

As others have said above, its an unenviable decision to have to make as a policeman, but based on what they seemed to know, it was the only one they could make.

And they werent trying to arrest him Irish1 from whats emerged, they had him under surveillance hoping he could lead them to others. Its seems he spotted he was being followed and ran. His mistake.

Villain

Sand wrote:

The worst possible scenario from shooting a man under surveillance who makes a break for an underground...one dead.

The worst possible scenario from not shooting and allowing him to either board the train and/or trigger explosives....dozens dead.

As others have said above, its an unenviable decision to have to make as a policeman, but based on what they seemed to know, it was the only one they could make.

Surely Sand the other option was to arrest him before he got near the bus never mind the tube station???

simu

Sand wrote:

The worst possible scenario from shooting a man under surveillance who makes a break for an underground...one dead.

The worst possible scenario from not shooting and allowing him to either board the train and/or trigger explosives....dozens dead.

As others have said above, its an unenviable decision to have to make as a policeman, but based on what they seemed to know, it was the only one they could make.

And they werent trying to arrest him Irish1 from whats emerged, they had him under surveillance hoping he could lead them to others. Its seems he spotted he was being followed and ran. His mistake.

Harsh - what if it's you next time?

I see the point you are making but the police are supposed to be the "good guys". Once you start accepting the killing of people by police forces "just in case" you're on a very slippery slope.

pete

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.
The man was killed in Stockwell Tube station in an incident described by Scotland Yard as a "tragedy".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

simu

simu wrote:

I see the point you are making but the police are supposed to be the "good guys". Once you start accepting the killing of people by police forces "just in case" you're on a very slippery slope.

It's an inevitability unfortunately in the current circumstances where false islamists are trying to murder dozens or hundreds because of some crazed thinking they have.

Harsh - what if it's you next time?

I'd hope that Sand of all people and all others excluding terrorists and especially posters here would have more common sense than the poor unfortunate man that was shot yesterday.

Villain

Reports are now saying he was Brazilian, I wonder was he in the UK illegally and thats why he ran??