London Underground under attack? [merged thread]

irish1

A Brasilian asylum seeker? I doubt that. But regardless still very very foolish

irish1 wrote:

Surely Sand the other option was to arrest him before he got near the bus never mind the tube station???

Well thats the unknown.
We can pontificate here for pages as to what operation the police were doing when they were following this guy.
They had no idea that he was going to run at that stage probably and certainly not run onto a train increasing the worry of the persuing police

Villain

Earthman wrote:

A Brasilian asylum seeker? I doubt that. But regardless still very very foolish
Well thats the unknown.
We can pontificate here for pages as to what operation the police were doing when they were following this guy.
They had no idea that he was going to run at that stage probably and certainly not run onto a train increasing the worry of the persuing police

Well perhaps he had no English, and didn't know who was chasing him, the poilce officers were wearing plane clothes.

IMO if he was under survalliance and was trying to get onto a bus wearing a large coat I wonder of arrested him then not later.

murphaph

Earthman wrote:

A Brasilian asylum seeker? I doubt that. But regardless still very very foolish

A Brazilian asylum seeker might be unlikely but a Brazilian illegal immigrant is a distinct possibility. He may not even speak much english ergo when 3 blokes in suits chase him (they were plainclothes by all accounts) he'll fcuking run. It's a very human thing to do Earthman. It's one of our most basic instincts-that to survive and running away is a fundamental part of that.

Earthman wrote:

Well thats the unknown.
We can pontificate here for pages as to what operation the police were doing when they were following this guy.
They had no idea that he was going to run at that stage probably and certainly not run onto a train increasing the worry of the persuing police

But if reports are correct and they let him board a bus then this has to be seen as a huge no-no. They weren't tailing a suspected drug dealer who might lead them to accomplices-they were tailing a suspected walking bomb who could detonate at any moment! They should not have taken risks with members of the public's lives like that.

I know this is all new to the Met. I just can't agree with those who appear to be shrugging their shoulders on here and saying "ah fcuk it-the silly fcuker shouldn't have run". In the heat of the moment I'm not questioning the actions of the gunman, but I would question the lead up to the shooting if what we're hearing about him being allowed to board a bus are true.

Ping Chow Chi

Im pretty sure that he could understand english. One of the eye witnesses yeasterday said she heard him say something along the lines of 'these people are crazy'.

Its a confusing situation that needs to be explained more. If they thought that he was such a treat that he had to be executed while pinned down, then they should have shot him way before he got to the tube station.

murphaph

They've confirmed he was Brazillian. He was an electrician on his way to work. Poor bastard.

A Dub in Glasgo

I think I will avoid London for now, there appears to be some gung-ho police on the loose. Unbelievable that they would prefer to tail someone than stop and search before any risk to the public.

mike65

This'll sound bad, but at least it was'nt a young Muslim who was killed, then the crap would have hit the turbines.

Mike.

pete

irish1 wrote:

Well perhaps he had no English, and didn't know who was chasing him, the poilce officers were wearing plane clothes.

IMO if he was under survalliance and was trying to get onto a bus wearing a large coat I wonder of arrested him then not later.

He wasn't under surveillance. He left an apartment building - not a house - that was being watched, and was tailed.

De Menezes on Friday left a south London apartment building that had been under surveillance as part of the investigation into the attempted bombings Thursday.

Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.

He challenged police and refused to obey orders before he was shot and killed Friday morning, Blair said Friday.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.html

danniemcq

so it's been announced that the suspected suicide bomber that was shot in the head 5 times in the head at point blank range while lying on top of him was actually innocent and had nothing to do with any bombings. opinions on these events if you so will.

A Dub in Glasgo

An act of terrorism

Chucky the tree

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

An act of terrorism

hahaaha i love it!

A Dub in Glasgo

Good to see you find the whole situation funny

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

An act of terrorism

Against my better judgement, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on that: are you saying that this shooting was a deliberate tactic intended to promote a political aim through the use of violence aimed at intimidation of the general public? If so, doubtless you'll be able to explain how you came to this conclusion.

Alternatively, perhaps you're trying to dilute the meaning of the word "terrorism"?

danniemcq

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Good to see you find the whole situation funny

yeah i wouldn't exactly call it the funniest thing ever. innocent civilians being shot??? terrorism yes funny NO

Dinner

I still have to say, that had I been in that situation, I would have shot him or at least given the order to shoot. Even though he was innocent, its nice to see that the police arent hesitating to eliminate terrorists. (Yes, this is still bad, shouldnt have happend blah bla blah).

Chucky the tree

i am not finding the situation funny, just the way he phrased it.

Chucky the tree

Arabel wrote:

I still have to say, that had I been in that situation, I would have shot him or at least given the order to shoot. Even though he was innocent, its nice to see that the police arent hesitating to eliminate terrorists. (Yes, this is still bad, shouldnt have happend blah bla blah).

sure why not a shoot to kill policy on everyone in london. If i was muslim, or dark skinned i wouldnt leave my house if i lived in london.

Rippy

A tragedy, but the poor victim did not help himself. Running from armed police during a state of high alert is not the brightest thing to do.

Dub13

Yea....it may not be the PC thing to say but he should not have ran away,if he was a Bomber and the police did not take him out the police would have alot of questions to answer.

The incident was very unfortunate and I feel for the mans family,also dont forget the police officers who were involved I am sure they did not mean to kill an innocent man,at the end of the day they were just doing their jobs.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

Against my better judgement, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on that: are you saying that this shooting was a deliberate tactic intended to promote a political aim through the use of violence aimed at intimidation of the general public? If so, doubtless you'll be able to explain how you came to this conclusion.

It will certainly strike terror and fear into anyone who may have the wrong 'look' or someone who may not want the Police questioning them (low level criminal who may be in possession, failed asylum seeker, illegal immigrant, someone who does not understand English). You can be shot 5 times in the head whilest being held down for your troubles. Nice

Alternatively, perhaps you're trying to dilute the meaning of the word "terrorism"?

Well it appears the only people that cannot spread terror are Governments of the West. Maybe I am reclaiming the term for what it really is.

Chucky the tree

Rippy wrote:

A tragedy, but the poor victim did not help himself. Running from armed police during a state of high alert is not the brightest thing to do.

as has been pointedo ut in another thread, maybe his english isnt the best and didnt understand? THe polic were undercover.

So we should kill everyone who does something that isnt very bright?



also, heres a quote from ken livingstone

"The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

Anyone else find it amazing that he has the cheeck to pin this on the terrorists?

Dinner

Chucky the tree wrote:

sure why not a shoot to kill policy on everyone in london. If i was muslim, or dark skinned i wouldnt leave my house if i lived in london.

No, no no. The circumstances were hardly typical of every muslim in England. I'm just saying that by looking at it from the police's point of view how else were they to act?

They got info of a house in one of the unexploded bombs, they staked out that address. A man wearing a thick coat went out in 22 degree heat into the centre of London and vaulted over a ticket barrier into a tube station (he must of known that these stations had been targetted as of late) when confronted by a gang of armed police shouting their policey thing at him.

Maybe he got scared (well obviously he got scared) and just panicked. But from the polices point of view he may well have had a bomb strapped to him and wanted to take down as many people as possible. They could take the risk that he didnt have a bomb and just follow him quietly, or they could take him down and make sure he wasnt a bomber.

I know what I would have done. I couldnt take the risk that he was just cold and possibly live to regret it when he killed dozens.

county

Rippy wrote:

A tragedy, but the poor victim did not help himself. Running from armed police during a state of high alert is not the brightest thing to do.

very true point,you dont run unless you have something to hide,especially if there are armed police behind you

Dinner

Chucky the tree wrote:

as has been pointedo ut in another thread, maybe his english isnt the best and didnt understand? THe polic were undercover.

So we should kill everyone who does something that isnt very bright?



also, heres a quote from ken livingstone


Anyone else find it amazing that he has the cheeck to pin this on the terrorists?

He was Brazialian, in Brazil they speak Portuguese, in his language Police is polícias, which I can only assume is damn well said close enough to english that he could understand (through my terribly basic Spanish at least).

As for Livingstone's quote, in a way it is down to the terrorists. If they hadnt attacked London in the first place that poor man would still be alive. No?

danniemcq

Arabel wrote:

I still have to say, that had I been in that situation, I would have shot him or at least given the order to shoot. Even though he was innocent, its nice to see that the police arent hesitating to eliminate terrorists. (Yes, this is still bad, shouldnt have happend blah bla blah).

well officially whnen shooting a suspect the police force are told to aim for the largest body mass (ie the chest) and i do feel 5 in the head while on top of him was OTT, a shot to the chest would have probably incapacitated him enough

Dinner

danniemcq wrote:

well officially whnen shooting a suspect the police force are told to aim for the largest body mass (ie the chest) and i do feel 5 in the head while on top of him was OTT, a shot to the chest would have probably incapacitated him enough

Yeah that was one thing I forgot to say in my first post, 5 in the head was OTT, but with potential suicide bombers police are told to aim for the head, a shot in the chest could still allow him time to press the button or whatever. Apparently the Isreali's gave some bomber fighting advice like that.

A Dub in Glasgo

Did they id themselves as police? Maybe his experiecnce of an armed gang dressed in jeans and baseball caps back in Brazil was to run fearing for his safety?

If he was confronted by uniformed police, maybe he would not have run?

He ran from civilians with guns therefore he was guilty of something!!! Strange justice system that

Dub13

danniemcq wrote:

, a shot to the chest would have probably incapacitated him enough

But if he was a suicide bomber and he was just incapacitated then he could still have set off the device

danniemcq

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Did they id themselves as police? Maybe his experiecnce of an armed gang dressed in jeans and baseball caps back in Brazil was to run fearing for his safety?

If he was confronted by uniformed police, maybe he would not have run?

He ran from civilians with guns therefore he was guilty of something!!! Strange justice system that

thats actually a very valid point, surly seeing a group of thug look a likes chasing you would have anyone running

Dinner

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Did they id themselves as police? Maybe his experiecnce of an armed gang dressed in jeans and baseball caps back in Brazil was to run fearing for his safety?

If he was confronted by uniformed police, maybe he would not have run?

He ran from civilians with guns therefore he was guilty of something!!! Strange justice system that

Its standard for police to shout "Stop Police" or something to that effect when chasing a suspect. Also the police were trying to evacuate the station so the would have had to identify themselves then aswell.

thats actually a very valid point, surly seeing a group of thug look a likes chasing you would have anyone running

Not if they had guns. You cant outrun a bullet. Especially not the day after an attempted bombing on the tubes.