Two teens executed in Iran for having gay sex

Stark

BuffyBot wrote:

Some of the attitudes displayed in this thread are as worrying as those in Iran. Wipes out any superior feeling we might have been feeling, that's for sure.

Attitudes such as?

rsynnott

lomb wrote:

and have been consigned to history. .

What? People are still killed that way every year in the US.

BuffyBot

Stark wrote:

Attitudes such as?

Classing people as in-breds, sweeping generalisations about societies..need I go on? Makes very depressing reading really.

Dedalus05

I have to concur with Buffybot here, and would suggest Lomb start a new thread to test his attitudes entitled:

'Iranians are inbred, backward, inhuman ragheads... <this next bit is a gem>>... who lack what we would call 'basic humanity'.'

Dedalus

Stark

Ah you meant lomb's posts. Sorry, I thought you meant the attitudes of all the posters in general.

Boston

I don't like being PC and I'm far from a liberal, but I dislike reading your post on this topic lomb. You should have enough cop on to know they are not suitable, or appreciated.

Rob, bad manners to have a dig about spelling.

r3boot

lomb wrote:

i wouldnt recommend setting foot in iran or any country in the middle east or pakistan tbh, they are backward people a doctor friend of mine spent alot of time out there and called them 'rag heads' make up your own mind....

saudia arabia and iran the only countries which follow this interpretation of what they deem islamic law. All other countries in the middle east follow laws based on a combination of contemporary islamic law and napoleonic law.

go to bahrain and you'll have a good time (better yet come visit me in kuwait !)

rsynnott

LiouVille wrote:

Rob, bad manners to have a dig about spelling.

Yes. Needed a way to make a point to the "it's there country" person, though.

r3boot wrote:

saudia arabia and iran the only countries which follow this interpretation of what they deem islamic law.

Can't help worrying that Iraq may end up the same way...

Swimmy

Hi all, my first post here!

I cannot believe Lombs posts and quite frankly if one replaced some of the phrases used with Black, homosexual, Jew etc... they would echo the thoughts of many idiotic extremist groups. I have found your posts to be distasteful in the least!

These guys were hung and murdered for who they were, just because of their sexual orientation. Words cannot describe this action really and I have to admit to being completely shocked about it since I have read the story.

The image of the 2 guys being interviewed was just appalling. Sometimes we do live in a screwed up World. How lucky we are to live in a fairly healthy democracy.

Stark

Amazingly enough I notice Iranians still advertise themselves on gaydar.

Swimmy

Stark wrote:

Amazingly enough I notice Iranians still advertise themselves on gaydar.

Interesting alright!

You never know, maybe their families were extremists who turned them in?

Stark

Swimmy wrote:

You never know, maybe their families were extremists who turned them in?

Doubt it. It said in the article that the boys claimed ignorance of Islamic laws regarding homosexuality. They couldn't have claimed ignorance if their families were known extremists.

rsynnott

Stark wrote:

Doubt it. It said in the article that the boys claimed ignorance of Islamic laws regarding homosexuality. They couldn't have claimed ignorance if their families were known extremists.

That's not necessarily the case; people may just not be aware there's an actual enforced law. Notoriously Alan Turing (father of modern computing) mentioned that he'd been at his boyfriend's flat while giving evidence in an unrelated trial; he was then accused of homosexuality. He had been unaware that it was still a crime in the UK at the time (1940s). Similarly, there were lots of gay people being quite open about being gay in states in the US where homosexuality was illegal pre 2003. Occasionally, a few were arrested (the Lawrence in Lawrence v Texas, the Supreme Court case that caused homosexuality to be legalised across the US)

A little off-topic, but I don't think posting that photo at the top of the forum is particularly appropriate. I know it's popular nowadays to watch murder (whether the people killed in Iraq, or the US's recent televised execution) but there should at least be a disturbing image warning.

Swimmy

Stark wrote:

Doubt it. It said in the article that the boys claimed ignorance of Islamic laws regarding homosexuality. They couldn't have claimed ignorance if their families were known extremists.

I cannot see how they didn't know either! I doubt this was the case knowing extremist religious groups!

Chucky the tree

rsynnott wrote:

"Hitler is killing millions of people in concentration camps." "It's his country, let him run it how he likes". Where do you draw the line? "South Africa treats 90% of its population like slaves, and has those who dissent tortured and killed". "It's their country, let them run it how they like". But international pressure turned South Africa around. "In Israel, Palestinians are tortured, and their towns demolished". "It's their country, let them run it how they like". But a few years ago, the Israeli Supreme Court banned most forms of what the EU considers torture, and is now looking at pulling out of some of the territories. All under international pressure. Get the point? Say Ireland announced it was going to start executing people who can't spell. What would you think then?

The only reason Britian declared war is because they feared germany was getting to big and pwoerful and had to be stopped. They didnt give a toss about the jews, no one did. If that happened in Iran during those days or Africa nothing would of been done about it. It would be now, but since there jewish people.


The black people in africa standing up for themselves had a much bigger impact then international pressure.

The reason international pressure worked with israeli is because they are so strongly linked with USA and also Europe. Even then, look how long it took, sure its still not really working.

I dont see what kind of economic pressure the west can put on to make a difference?

rsynnott wrote:

Don't get me wrong, no-one should go in guns blazing. That almost never works. But the current situation in Iran is the international community's fault. Economic pressure should be put on Iran to move away from Fundamentalism. Along with the other Fundamentalist countries (Saudi, Yemen etc.) and those who are heading in that direction (US, Iraq).

That smacks of imperiamlism though. The west tried that, didnt work out very well did it? Actually it was a nightmare.

The majority of people in the coutry seem happy with its running, who are we to try and change it?

P.S you had made a perfectly good point before you made a remark about my spelling.

rsynnott

Chucky the tree wrote:

The only reason Britian declared war is because they feared germany was getting to big and pwoerful and had to be stopped. They didnt give a toss about the jews, no one did. If that happened in Iran during those days or Africa nothing would of been done about it. It would be now, but since there jewish people.

Fair enough. However the concentration camps were used to fuel propaganda that it was a war of good vs evil (in many ways it was). They helped public support of the war (and probably made withdrawing very difficult).

Chucky the tree wrote:

The black people in africa standing up for themselves had a much bigger impact then international pressure.

Really? South Africa was crippled by the sanctions, you know. The government eventually capitulated, but it was almost certainly not because of the resistance; that never gave their police state any serious difficulty.

Chucky the tree wrote:

The reason international pressure worked with israeli is because they are so strongly linked with USA and also Europe. Even then, look how long it took, sure its still not really working.

Really? Their only real links are economic... just like Iran's links. And things have improved a hell of a lot there at least from a civil rights point of view. They are NO LONGER TORTURING PEOPLE. The importance of that can't be overlooked.

I dont see what kind of economic pressure the west can put on to make a difference?

Europe is one of their biggest export markets, it is also supplying them with nuclear technology.

That smacks of imperiamlism though. The west tried that, didnt work out very well did it? Actually it was a nightmare.

The only reason that homosexuality is legal here today is European pressure. A major reason for the end of the Magdelene laundries is international disapproval. Imperialism by invasion is rarely a good thing. International pressure does a lot of good.

The majority of people in the coutry seem happy with its running, who are we to try and change it?

Really? In the aftermath of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, most women were outraged at the restrictions put upon them (women were fairly free under the Shah) and protested. Those protests were put down, and the restrictions stay to this day. How happy do you think they are about that? There's 50% unhappy, right there. And I'm sure a lot of the rest of the population isn't too keen either.

Bear in mind that to a large extent it was the International community that got them into that mess in the first place... America was willing to settle for anything except a Russian-occupied Iran, and that caused a lot of the instability that allowed Khomeini to take power.

P.S you had made a perfectly good point before you made a remark about my spelling.

I wanted to give you an analogous situation

Chucky the tree

rsynnott wrote:

Really? South Africa was crippled by the sanctions, you know. The government eventually capitulated, but it was almost certainly not because of the resistance; that never gave their police state any serious difficulty.;)

I am sure the reason the west started the international pressure was because the blacks is South africa werent happy with there treatment? In iran there has been no suggest unhappiness with the treatment of the gay lads.

rsynnott wrote:

Europe is one of their biggest export markets, it is also supplying them with nuclear technology.

THere main export is oil, no way in hell will europe do anything to piss them off. We cant afford too.Sotuh africa never really had anything we depended on.

rsynnott

Chucky the tree wrote:

I am sure the reason the west started the international pressure was because the blacks is South africa werent happy with there treatment? In iran there has been no suggest unhappiness with the treatment of the gay lads.

I'm sure gay people in Iran aren't head-over-heels in joy about their treatment, either. And we alreadly know women there aren't keen on <i>their</i> treatment.

Chucky the tree wrote:

THere main export is oil, no way in hell will europe do anything to piss them off. We cant afford too.Sotuh africa never really had anything we depended on.

Iran is in no position to stop selling oil.

De Rebel

rsynnott wrote:

A little off-topic, but I don't think posting that photo at the top of the forum is particularly appropriate. I know it's popular nowadays to watch murder (whether the people killed in Iraq, or the US's recent televised execution) but there should at least be a disturbing image warning.

Although I can appreciate your sensitivity, I have to disagree with this.

That photograph, taken maybe 60 seconds before their young lives were needlessly and brutally ended, is both thought provoking and successful in conveying the awfulness of the situation. I detest needless portrayals of violence and gory depictions which are aired for their shock value. But that picture conveys a definite message that we all need to hear.

Like Swimmy, I actually found one of the other photos much more disturbing. The sight of the two boys, crying their eyes out, chained together with handcuffs, behind bars, surrounded by adults who were either powerless or afraid to defend them is much much more disturbing. This photo has the combined power of the reality of a photograph and disturbing imagery of an artistic composition.

It is a haunting image that has left me feeling very raw and will remain with me for a long long time.


From http://isna.ir/Main/NewsView.aspx?ID=News-556874
also http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

damien

Jesus Fcking Christ. This is quite shocking, as are some attitudes here and I'm quite surprised with some people happily going off on some sort of mutual masturbation "lets get all deep and talk about what makes society wrong" discussion.

Two kids are dead and people here are more interested in oneupmanship. Look at the bloody big picture for fcks sake. I agree with what DeRebel and Swimmy (hey fella!) have to say.

That pic has left a cynical Damien a tad upset too.

Hmm_Messiah

WHen you come acros something as barbaric and obscene as this the problem is a real need to make some attempt to keep it within context, and temper your emotions. However wrong the thing is, and it's not so much wrong as a great evil, the morality of this people is crushed by their culture, their history and their disconnection from the complexity of modern life.

We find it abhorrent. Some people tar the whole nation with the same brush, some even consider how the perpetrators deserve cruel punishment, as if that rights the imbalance .

Personally I have 3 observations. They are my thoughts, not "the truth" and not anything people need to debate/refute and so move away from the horror of the topic.

1. I cannot grasp that any God could condone such acts in his name; and I'd wish these two young people now find a more perfect place with the God in whose names these laws are written.

2. When I read this I was reminded of teen pregnancies in Ireland. I know sounds off topic, but babies here are STILL abandoned, not because of Law but because of the strength of Religion and its often distorted understanding of humanity. Similar prejudices and ignorances led to Ann Lovett dying on graveyard gravel; how responsible are WE as irish people for the wrongs our society allows? We are in ways far less removed from this evil than some would like to hope.

3. lastly, and without intending to insult any one, I also see as overwhelmingly sad that these story is posted here. Two reasons; GLBT should emphasis the great joy and adventure in being who you are, it's sad that something so awful should figure(rightfully) in a LGBT forum. Secondly many people who read here are intelligent articulate passionate people. How is this story limited to "net news". IF RTE can report extensively on women avoiding stoning for adultery in Africe, why isn't it reporting the "legimitate" ending of two young lives over a consenting sexual activity?

I hope each of us makes the very best of our lives and sexual expression, denied to these young men.

PAX

solice

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/07/28/story213833.html

Iran’s executions of teenage offenders last week violated international law, a New York-based human rights group has said.

Human Rights Watch condemned the July 19 public hangings of two teenagers, aged 18 and 16, after they were found guilty of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old boy 14 months earlier. The older convict was 17 at the time of the offence.

Annasopra

There is a protest on August 11th outside the Iranian embassy in London and consequently some people have suggested doing the same in Dublin on the same day

Some people think it would be good to have it at lunchtime (at the same time as the London one) others think 6:30 might be a better idea

Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Iran
72 Mount Merrion Avenue
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Tel: 01 288 0252 /01 288 5881
Fax: 01 283 4246
E.Mail: iranembassy@indigo.ie

Anyway I would hope that lots of people can make it and I will let people know the time

segadreamcast

Johnnymcg wrote:

There is a protest on August 11th outside the Iranian embassy in London and consequently some people have suggested doing the same in Dublin on the same day

Some people think it would be good to have it at lunchtime (at the same time as the London one) others think 6:30 might be a better idea

Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Iran
72 Mount Merrion Avenue
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Tel: 01 288 0252 /01 288 5881
Fax: 01 283 4246
E.Mail: iranembassy@indigo.ie

Anyway I would hope that lots of people can make it and I will let people know the time

*Deafening silence* Come on people... you suddenly sprung up to condemn this action, and now that you can actually be seen to do something about it, you all suddenly clam up?

I'll be there for sure.

marco murphy

hokidoki wrote:

yes they are, welcome to islam

Your stupid.

marco murphy

Pity i didnt see this thread earlier to enlighten some of yee

Also Shari'a only governs physical actions in homosexxuality - not thoughts.
Maturbation is excluded from all of this and just requires washing(wudu),take a ful bath or shower before prayer,but are not otherwise punishable under Shari'a.

Sharia legislation falls into one of four or five main madhhabs, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki.

Hanafi - does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Some scholars of this school also specifically rule out the death penalty, while others allow it for a second offence.

But its all within the Islamic state - Saudi arabia is public execution.Maximum penalty.

[qoute]Ash-Shuara' (starting at 165):

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)! They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings:" "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 26:165-175)
An-Naml (starting at 55):

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We destined to be of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!" (Qur'an 27:55-58)
Al-Ankabut (starting at 28):

"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? - and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." (Qur'an 29:28-29)
An-Nisa, starting at 15-15:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:15-16)
[/qoute]

Hmm_Messiah

Poblachtach wrote:

Your stupid.

An enlightened contribution .

His comment was as valid as yours, moreso in that you've decided some one you know nothing about is stupid. His comparison of Islam /Iran being in the Stone Age ha some validity, especially in the context of the OP

Hmm_Messiah

Pity i didnt see this thread earlier to enlighten some of yee

Do you think this contribution has enlightened any one ?

And are you quoting Qur'an to argue for or against what happened?

The people who hang teenagers by the neck, for any reason, and feel justified either by Law or God, are thoe ones that need enlightenment.

The reality is that Islam, and other religions like RC , relie on tradition or scripture from a time long past, and do not recognise that people, in every way evolve. It is possible to retain intrinsic truths while still acknowledging the cultural and societal changes. But the most fundamentalist in each religion show a real disregard for the unique life of the individual. That they believe they act with God's blessing is something I'd find abhorrent to any truly Merciful God, as the Qur'an describes Allah.

I think you are suggesting that this was a legislative act rather than one based on Islamic teaching. I might accept the point but where then is the Voice of the Merciful Allah or his followers rising in condemnation of this barbarism.

Its possible I guess another use of the Hijab, as well as "preserving modesty " is it lessens the sound of mothers crying, and hides their innate human reaction to such cruelty.

Boston

I think the point he was making, though he failed somewhat in making it, is that it's not Islam, but rather this particular interpretation of Islam that demands these kids be murdered.

As for the photo I agree with Derebel. Nothing in the photo as disturbing as the knowledge we have that a very short time later these teenagers where hanging from a rope. It's good to have images like this, it reminds people of what we they are talking about, and removes a certain level of detachment from us.

marco murphy

Its the state that decides upon hanging gays,not islam,thats my point.