Man running from police shot dead in London

Mr. Presentable

BizzyC wrote:

The story will probably change several times, before we get the real version.

Before we get "their" version. Why expect the truth, especially if they shot an innocent man?

And by innocent I mean he may not be a terrorist - perhaps he stole the rucksack!

Kazujo

The one I read was that he tripped onto the carriage and 3 police stood over him, pressed the gun on him then shot.

There is still no conformation if he actually had a bomb or not is there?

Orion

roberteboot wrote:

But he wasnt restrained.Eye witness reports say they shot him as he stumbled onto the train.Earlier on the BBC site eye witness reports said that they stumbled onto him.The site then seemed to take this to mean restrained for some reaon.

Presumably they would have loved to take him alive and question him.But they couldnt.If they shot him once and he still had any ability to he could still detonate the bomb.

From the BBC
"I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

roberteboot

I do realize everything im saying is speculation though.And that none of us can actually know.

Dinner

spannerhead wrote:

Before we get "their" version. Why expect the truth, especially if they shot an innocent man?

And by innocent I mean he may not be a terrorist - perhaps he stole the rucksack!

Perhaps he had a bomb on his back and he was ready to blow up yet another train....

You seem convinced that he was innocent, why?

roberteboot

Macros42 wrote:

From the BBC
"I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

I dont take bundled on top of him as having him restrained.He could have been lying on his stomach with his hand on the detonator.I just dont think that i could take that chance if i was in the police officers situation where my hesitaion could cost scores of people their lives.


But as i said i AM speculating.

Mr. Presentable

Arabel wrote:

Perhaps he had a bomb on his back and he was ready to blow up yet another train....

You seem convinced that he was innocent, why?

I'm not conviced he was innocent, but I don't think any of us want everyone of dark skin carrying a rucksack to be shot in case they are bombers.

Orion

Arabel wrote:

Perhaps he had a bomb on his back and he was ready to blow up yet another train....

You seem convinced that he was innocent, why?

I know you're not asking me this but I'll give my answer. I'm not convinced he's innocent but I am concerned about the possible use of unnecessary lethal force. The Met police are looking for sweeping new powers as it is. Nobody in their right mind wants a London police version of the SAS's shoot to kill policy in the north.

Peteee

Kingsize wrote:

believe the suspect to be carrying a highy volatile explosive capable of being detonated by a stray gunshot.

Bombs generally dont go off if shot (See what happened yesterday, the detonators went off (a detonator is a small, unstable bomb that goes off easy, so as to set off the 'bog bomb') but the main charge didnt go off.

tbh, good on the cops. Innocent people dont run.

For those people who think 5 shots is excessive, a 9mm FMJ round dosent do a whole lot of damage compared to .45 (as they used to use) and it will NOT stop a man dead.

Dinner

spannerhead wrote:

I'm not conviced he was innocent, but I don't think any of us want everyone of dark skin carrying a rucksack to be shot in case they are bombers.

No of course not. But why run away from 10 officers shouting at you to stop or they'll shoot? Why run onto a tube of all things?

roberteboot

I do think if they had an opportunity to take him for questioning they would have taken it rather than shooting him.

Kingsize

people do illegal sh-it all the time which might cause them to run from men with guns this does not nescessarily mean they are suicide bombers, terrorists or whatever.
BTW petee there were reports yesterday that when one of the tube bombs failed the bomber shot the bag to try & ignite the main device.apparently "mother of satan" can be ignited this way

Dinner

Kingsize wrote:

people do illegal sh-it all the time which might cause them to run from men with guns this does not nescessarily mean they are suicide bombers, terrorists or whatever.

Right so someone who robbed a bag off someone chose to run from a gang of police and he then chose to run onto a tube. Is he such an idiot that in light of recent events, he ran from the police onto a tube?

bullrunner

Nuttzz wrote:

British police dont go around shooting people for jollies you know....

thats very debateable nutzz..what about bloody sunday??

Peteee

Kingsize wrote:

people do illegal sh-it all the time which might cause them to run from men with guns this does not nescessarily mean they are suicide bombers, terrorists or whatever.

The last place I'd be running away from them is onto a tube.

<politically incorrect statement ahead, meant in jest>

If he's that stupid, then his gene's deserve to be wiped out

</politically incorrect statement ahead, meant in jest>

Lemming

Peteee wrote:

tbh, good on the cops. Innocent people dont run.

Ignoring everything else, that is just Orwellian b*llocks.

"If you are innocent you have nothing to fear".

Remember that the next time the government pushes for new powers to invade your privacy for no otehr reason then they want to. Need I remind anyone of what happened to, oh ... Gerry Conlon and a whole load of others during the seventies?

Regarding the circumstances of this incident, we simply don't know enough yet to make accurate posts. But from the witness report on the BBC website, it would appear that they had him under some sort of retraint or control on the ground and then proceeded to shoot him. That, to me, is very worrying. Even if he wasn't innocent.

Five shots at point blank range is practically emptying your pistol into someone. That's not controlled.

seamus

bullrunner wrote:

thats very debateable nutzz..what about bloody sunday??

Guys, this is an entirely different situation from the troubles in the 70s and 80s. Open a different thread if you want to discuss it.

Kingsize

he might have been just running for a train reports say he jumped a barrier & ran along the platform .
Ive seen this happen at dart stations

Peteee

Lemming wrote:

Ignoring everything else, that is just Orwellian b*llocks.

"If you are innocent you have nothing to fear".

Remember that the next time the government pushes for new powers to invade your privacy for no otehr reason then they want to. Need I remind anyone of what happened to, oh ... Gerry Conlon and a whole load of others during the seventies?

Regarding the circumstances of this incident, we simply don't know enough yet to make accurate posts. But from the witness report on the BBC website, it would appear that they had him under some sort of retraint or control on the ground and then proceeded to shoot him. That, to me, is very worrying. Even if he wasn't innocent.

Five shots at point blank range is practically emptying your pistol into someone. That's not controlled.

Would you run? Especially onto a tube.

I'm all for 'innocent until proven guilty' but really now?

If I was scared that the guy was gonna blow up any second, i'd sure as hell empty my clip into him.

5 shots while they had him restrained, is indeed worrying, but i've seen different reports about this so, i'll try and reserve judgement until a clearer story comes in (Ooops too late )

Lemming

seamus wrote:

Guys, this is an entirely different situation from the troubles in the 70s and 80s. Open a different thread if you want to discuss it.

I just used the Guildford Four as a reference to innocent people being dealt with harshly because the government of the day decided to "cut corners" and accountability and started playing politics with Lady Justice, not because I'm trying to equate this to 'the troubles'.

Peteee

Kingsize wrote:

he might have been just running for a train reports say he jumped a barrier & ran along the platform .
Ive seen this happen at dart stations

Have you seen them being pursued by 5 coppers with guns? :rolleyes:

Nuttzz

bullrunner wrote:

thats very debateable nutzz..what about bloody sunday??

the paras are not the police :rolleyes:

back on topic

he might have been just running for a train reports say he jumped a barrier & ran along the platform .
Ive seen this happen at dart stations

with 10 under cover cops chasing them??

The Met must of had cctv pictures of them yesterday and had them under a close watch

Kingsize

seamus wrote:

Guys, this is an entirely different situation from the troubles in the 70s and 80s. Open a different thread if you want to discuss it.

Explain ?? to me it seems scarily similar the british public living in fear & hungry for justice.The police under pressure to prosecute.
people suspicious of everyone of a certain racial type.
what's different about that, wait until the backlash against muslims really kicks in

the paras are not the police , the paras did not force people to sign confessions at gunpoint

Trojan

Lemming wrote:

Five shots at point blank range is practically emptying your pistol into someone. That's not controlled.

Absolutely. That's why I believe those cops thought they had damned good reason to do that.

bullrunner

Lemming wrote:

Regarding the circumstances of this incident, we simply don't know enough yet to make accurate posts. But from the witness report on the BBC website, it would appear that they had him under some sort of retraint or control on the ground and then proceeded to shoot him. That, to me, is very worrying. Even if he wasn't innocent.

Five shots at point blank range is practically emptying your pistol into someone. That's not controlled.

Its not controlled...its murder...regardless of what the (suspected)suicide bomer intended!

steviec

Kingsize wrote:

he might have been just running for a train reports say he jumped a barrier & ran along the platform .
Ive seen this happen at dart stations

And he didn't notice the bunch of armed police shouting at him and trying to clear the area because he was so concerned with getting his train?

It amazes me how people are willing to clutch at straws trying to prove this guys innocence so they have something to complain about the police for. He might have been innocent, we don't know yet, but it seems more likely that the police saved the lives of dozens of people based on current reports.

roberteboot

From my reading of the articles - They "bundled on top of him"-BBC or "shot him as he stumbled onto the train"-SKY.Bundled does NOT indicate they had him under restraint.A couple of officers manage to tackle him and hes reaching for the detonator so what can they do?
As i said above its not like they had him cuffed and decided to use him for target practice.If they thought he was about to detonate the explosives then they had to act.

Lemming

Peteee wrote:

Would you run? Especially onto a tube.

lets assume for one second that he's robbed a bag. Do you think he's thinking clearly? Other than to go "oh f8ck oh f*ck the law are after me ... better run"?

People are often not rational under stress.

I'm all for 'innocent until proven guilty' but really now?

The day we abandon that maxim, is the day that we as a society do not deserve to exist.

Remember, every man is a potential rapist and every citizen is a potential terrorist. Every adult is a potential paedophile and every citizen is a potential mugger. Lets live in a society like that eh?

I trust my point has been made (and I'm sorry for going off-tangent guys)

Zaphod B

BloodBath wrote:

TBH England deserves everything it gets for joining Bushes so called war on terror. What they have done over in Iraq is a thousand times worse than anything the so called terrorists have done in England. Now i'm not saying killing innocent people is right but they have brought it upon themselves. I feel sorry for the millions of asians living in England. They are racist enough as it is without thiese bombings giving them more excuses to firebomb asian shops and abuse asian people living there.

Absolutely. Having opposed the Iraq war and marched, written and voted to that effect, I haven't done enough and for that I deserve to die. When I go back to college in East London I'll see if I can recruit some fundamentalists to murder me. Because obviously I deserve it.

England deserves everything it gets eh? England hasn't been bombed. The English people have been bombed. Not the PM, not the MPs or the right-wing press - just normal people going about their lives. Stop being so cowardly with that "I'm not saying killing innocent people is right" nonsense - the old get-out clause that lets you justify the killing of civilians while claiming you don't condone it. You clearly do condone it. At least admit that.

Oh and you're right, this presents a wonderful opportunity for me to go and firebomb the Gandhi Cash 'n' Carry. Gee, I wonder if I can get enough of my fellow racists together to form a good old-fashioned lynch mob. Of course I can, all I have to do is step outside. Because obviously every non-Asian face will be a racist one.

Of course, assuming that "they" - (white Anglo-Saxon English people) have all just been waiting for an excuse to harrass and kill Asians... why, that wouldn't be a racist assumption, now would it?

Orion

steviec wrote:

It amazes me how people are willing to clutch at straws trying to prove this guys innocence

I'm going to keep saying this until someone listens. His innocence or guilt is not in question here. The method of his execution is.