Illegal downloaders buy more records!

bucks

The music industry contention that file sharing is destroying sales, has been challenged following new research.

According to a poll by digital music research company The Leading Question people who illegally share music files are among the biggest users of legal music downloads.

The study discovered that downloaders of unlicensed music spent an average of £5.52 on legal digital music, compared to the £1.27 spent by other music fans.

"The research clearly shows that music fans who break piracy laws are highly valuable customers," The Leading Question’s Paul Brindley told BBC News. "There's a myth that all illegal downloaders are mercenaries hell-bent on breaking the law in pursuit of free music."

Record industry body the BPI responded to the research, with spokesperson Matt Philips saying: "It's encouraging that many illegal file-sharers are starting to use legal services, but our concern is that file sharers' expenditure on music overall is down, a fact borne out by study after study. The consensus among independent research is that a third of illegal file-sharers may buy more.”

The study also showed that dedicated MP3 players still rule the roost over mobile phones with built in players, with a third of fans planning to buy a player, compared to just 8% who want to get a phone, although interest in combined technology is growing.

nme.com

Mossy Monk

try telling that to mr. record executive who is using the the excuse of illegal downloaders to cover up the fact that **** music is why people arent buying his albums

bucks

Its true though, i wouldnt have heard and bought half of the music i have if i didnt hear it by means of an illegal download.

I in no way encourage illegal downloading but it has been the best way of marketing and promoting bands material to people who would never of heard them if it wasnt for illegal downloads.

Nightwish

i use downloads to find out about bands, see what their music is like before i take a chance on losing 15 quid. if i like what I hear, I'm the type of person who'll collect all of their albums

Civilian_Target

Yep - were it not for MP3 I would have not bought 20 or 30 albums this year, not to mention spending at least €400 on concert tickets this year alone. I'd say the industry has done pretty well out of me thanks to those old Napster days!

fletch

I must be the exception to the rule because the only CDs I've bought in the last 5 years have been blank CD-Rs

Zapho

This isn't the first study on this. When BBC.com talk illegal downloads they often mention that illegal downloads actually increase sales. I'm glad that its finally coming to light. I'm the same, downloadin has gotten me into bands that I otherwise would have never heard of. Isn't there even a new band that let people download the mp3s of the album off the net for free to incourage people to buy the album?

Chalk

Maybe, but then they are also far less likely to spend money on CDs than the so-called "average music fan", with the effect that while they pay iTunes, Napster and co. more than other folk do, their overall spending on music is lower.

That's certainly the worry of the music industry, as represented by the BPI, which cited other studies that show the majority of active music sharers and downloaders spend less than they used to. "Our concern is that file-sharers' expenditure on music overall is down, a fact borne out by study after study," a spokesman for the organisation said

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/27/p2p_users_legal_downloads/

Mossy Monk

Zapho wrote:

Isn't there even a new band that let people download the mp3s of the album off the net for free to incourage people to buy the album?

who?

smackbunnybaby

Mossy Monk wrote:

try telling that to mr. record executive who is using the the excuse of illegal downloaders to cover up the fact that **** music is why people arent buying his albums

ridiculously true...
most albums these days are 2-3 songs at most these days,no wonder downloading has increased so much

DerekD Goldfish

Mossy Monk wrote:

who?

Lots of bands do it
Chuck D of Public Enemy uploads tracks to the web as soon as he finishes them in studio

tman

sounds about right tbh.
or so the €800 dent in my credit card bill for the past month would have you believe...

Besprechen

tman wrote:

sounds about right tbh.
or so the €800 dent in my credit card bill for the past month would have you believe...

i have to agree, ive bought so much music over the last 3 years legally that id have never heard of without p2p, though must admit i use mp3search.ru which is still a little unclear in the legality stakes

monument

OECD - Falling CD sales can't be blamed on P2P swappers
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=269943

MorningStar

bucks wrote:

"The research clearly shows that music fans who break piracy laws are highly valuable customers," The Leading Question’s Paul Brindley told BBC News. "There's a myth that all illegal downloaders are mercenaries hell-bent on breaking the law in pursuit of free music."

What seems strange to me about this "study" is it's based on what? Was it just a questionaire? I looked about trying to find out and that seems to be how it was done but none seem to clearely state for sure. If it was just a questionaire the results have to be doubtful about how accurate it is.

monument

What ever about that study, you might try having 'faith' in a report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (see above).

MorningStar

monument wrote:

What ever about that study, you might try having 'faith' in a report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (see above).

That report even admits that it can't tell what the cause of sale drops is. The best their report says is there are many factors. As this thread is about sales of people whom illegally download I think it is more relevant to question that report and it's validity. Your report and this one kind of directly question each other but at the least they are not about the same point. One is about the dip of sales and the other is about how the industires best customers are also the people illegally downloading music.

Creamy Goodness

didn't i hear the same agrument when blank tapes were released on to the market

this kind of statement: "this will kill the music industry"

bull**** to that if it wasn't for p2p and the internet i wouldn't of found some of favourite bands.

MorningStar

Cremo wrote:

didn't i hear the same agrument when blank tapes were released on to the market

this kind of statement: "this will kill the music industry"

bull**** to that if it wasn't for p2p and the internet i wouldn't of found some of favourite bands.

I am guessing you didn't read the thread!
Nobody made any statement saying it will kill the industry here. The thread is about how illegal downloaders buy more music!

Creamy Goodness

i did read it i just misintrepretated it

monument

MorningStar wrote:

That report even admits that it can't tell what the cause of sale drops is. The best their report says is there are many factors.

Their point it is that the P2P downloaders are not to blame, at least not significantly as the music industry tries to claim...

"such as the rise in the number of entertainment sources -- as being more likely to have had a significant impact on music sales" - http://www.electricnews.net/news.html?code=9613070

The point is in Ireland* (as well as the UK, France, Germany, and Japan**) we "actually experienced steady or growing CD sales". (Sources: * = the Irish Times' the Ticket; ** electricnews.net)

The two are connected. At least in the non-US regions listed above. Unless the industry…

A)… was massively underestimating the lost revenue in the non-internet piracy before the rise of online piracy (so all these people just switched from one piracy to another piracy).

OR

… has gained massive amounts of brand new consumes of wide ranging age groups just around the same time internet piracy lifted off.

OR

C)… some other equally fairyland-like dream.

MorningStar

monument wrote:

Their point it is that the P2P downloaders are not to blame, at least not significantly as the music industry tries to claim...

I think you miss my point that it isn't very definitive either way. The first link doesn't explain how they got the figures. If it was online questionare it is very dubious on facts. First off it very difficult to identify who uses illegal downloads and then connect them to sales. How many on-line polls have been played around with?
The second point is your link isn't really based on actual facts other than showing sales have not gone down in some countries. I agree there are many factors besides P2P. I just think that both links are equal in propaganda as the music industry blaming P2P. It seems to be speculation rather than conclusive evidence.

BrianD

Well the guys who settled out of court with IRMA will certainly have less money to spend on CD's!!

Story here ...

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0804/3340311770HM1WEBMUSIC.html

BaZmO*

Slightly OT but, I remember about a year or two ago HMV were complaining about a huge drop in album sales of STG£49 million in their stores in the UK and Ireland. And who got the blame? Downloaders and CDWOW.

However, about a month or two after hearing about them complain I was reading an article in one of the Sunday supplements and the article pointed out the "actual" reason why HMV sales were down. It was because they had gotten out of the gift voucher market. And have a guess how much their profits were in that sector the year previous? Yes, you guessed it. STG£49 million!!!

B.

Mossy Monk

thats why shops like that should be botcotted if possible. profits are down, lets blame our customers and not poor management. they can all **** off

super_furry

I can't count the number of bands that I've got into through illegal downloading. These are bands that I wouldn't have heard of any other way, but because I was able to download a few tracks for free, I got into them, bought their albums and in most cases paid to see them live.

grumpytrousers

super_furry wrote:

I can't count the number of bands that I've got into through illegal downloading. These are bands that I wouldn't have heard of any other way, but because I was able to download a few tracks for free, I got into them, bought their albums and in most cases paid to see them live.

I'd contend that people like your own good self are in the minority, although that's nothing more than a gut feeling ; I'd reckon that there's plenty of folks out there who ARE downloading like the bejaysus, and it's old music by established bands...and a significant amount of revenues generated by the likes of HMV et al are based upon back catalogue sales. Hence their bottom line IS hit to an extent by downloaders...and for the most part this back catalogue isn't carried by CD-WOW...so the bargain conscious (unless they go for amazon) may well go for the downloading option...

For my own 2c worth, back when i worked in an office with a nice big fat broadband connection (wide enough to lose a badger in, if memory serves!) I'd be at it like hell; my rules were simple...

a) I will download this if it can't be bought in the shops. I'm talking about deleted albums/old singles/12" only mixes...I suppose I *could* have a look on second hand sites, etc, but the fact of the matter is that the artist isn't going to get money on THAT sale so what's the point.
b) I'll download it if it's a great track that probably came from a ropey album. I am NOT going to pony up for a full album for the sake of one dynamite track; the chances, of course, of Baby I Don't Care by Transvision Vamp being made legally available for download in the future are remote although yes, I'd gladly, ahem, splash out on the video if available
c) as super_furry does, and kinda related to b above, new band/new single see what the rest of it's like and then commit to spending...

Still reckon the main problem is that record companies (not retailers) are constantly trying to milk the money out of back catalogue material too much...

monument

MorningStar wrote:

The first link doesn't explain how they got the figures. If it was online questionare it is very dubious on facts. First off it very difficult to identify who uses illegal downloads and then connect them to sales. How many on-line polls have been played around with?
The second point is your link isn't really based on actual facts other than showing sales have not gone down in some countries. I agree there are many factors besides P2P. I just think that both links are equal in propaganda as the music industry blaming P2P. It seems to be speculation rather than conclusive evidence.

If you can't debunk what I said with more then what amounts to a one liner, I'll take it that you're the one spouting propaganda, so, here it is again...



The two [the new report and the OECD report] connected. [and the latter backs the first up] At least in the non-US regions listed above. Unless the industry…

A)… was massively underestimating the lost revenue in the non-internet piracy before the rise of online piracy (so all these people just switched from one piracy to another piracy).

OR

… has gained massive amounts of brand new consumes of wide ranging age groups just around the same time internet piracy lifted off.

OR

C)… some other equally fairyland-like dream.

MorningStar

monument wrote:

The point is in Ireland* (as well as the UK, France, Germany, and Japan**) we "actually experiencedsteady or growing CD sales ". (Sources: * = the Irish Times' the Ticket; ** electricnews.net)

Irish times wrote:

Mr Doyle said its technical consultants had amassed further evidence of illegal file- sharing in April, May and June. Irma says illegal "uploading" or sharing of music on the web made a substantial contribution to a €28 million decline in music sales in the Republic between 2001 and 2004.

Something isn't right there
I took what you said at face value but there seems to be direct contradiction there from the same paper. I think the fact Virgin and Golden discs closed shops in the centre of Dublin shows there is a decline. Don't get me wrong I think the record companies need to adapt but the first article is seriously in question.

I posted this as you posted your reply/repeat.

The reports youare quoting do not appear to be based on conclusive facts. Repeating them doesn't change that. The facts you have quoted don't marry up. Serial downloaders probably do buy more CDs but casual purchasers probably don't bother buying at all now. I don't know for sure either do you. The people who compiled the reports don't either because you can't really get figures for illegal activity with out speculation or estimation. These reports you hold so dear are just opinion and can't really be supported by fact. Irma aren't even saying P2p is the sole cause so why you are dismissing it as leading cause is beyond me. I store all my music on MP3 for networking in the house, having the CD makes little difference now. I do get to support smaller artists and labels now but that's really just choice.
I am not defending anybody just questioning the reports that can't be based on conclusive facts other than sales have dropped.