Grace

Sapien

Explain.

Zapho

Is google down or something?

(don't mean to be a d*ck but it sounds like you just want an argument)

Sapien

Zapho wrote:

Is google down or something?

(don't mean to be a d*ck but it sounds like you just want an argument)

Always. But I wouldn't mind a mote of insight first.

Nevyn

A name.

A prayer said before meals thanking deity for the gift of the food and life in general a prayer of thanks.

A state of being; being in god's good books, in god's good graces.
Christians are said to be 'in a state' of grace after religious cermonies.
Esp Catholics after confession and receiveing communion, the communion
transferring a boon of grace or purity to thier soul.

During the middle ages it was possible buy a state of grace or up your state
of grace by getting indulgences for donations. Or going on pilgrimage or funding church buildings.

toiletduck

She lives with Will

Sapien

Thaed wrote:

a name.

a prayer said before meals thanking deity for the dift of the food and life in general a prayer of thanks.

a state of being; being in god's good books, in god's good graces.
Christains are said to be 'in a state' of grace after religious cermonies.
Esp cathoclics after confession and receiceing communion, the communion
transfering a boon of grace or purity to thier soul.

During the middle ages it was possible buy a state of grace or up your state
of grace by getting indulgances for donations. or going on pilgrimage or funding church buildings.

Indeed. But the word is used in a very specific, nuanced way in many discussions of Christianity and christian theology and metaphysics, such that it would appear to run to the core of the issue. I imagine there is someone out there who can give me a compendious definition of this apsect of the meaning of the word. Or is it another of those clever opt-out, discussion baffling clauses, like the ever obnoxious faith (which I will return to at some point ).

Kali

she's amazing.

Excelsior

The very core of Christianity.

Although my wife will kill me, I like Bono's explanation.

Its the idea that God dispenses gifts, not wages. And he wants everyone to receive a present. Grace means there is nothing we can do to make God love us more more-
no amount of public displays of holiness
no amount of renunciations
no amount of sacrifices
no amount of theology studied and absorbed at famous universities
no amout of righteous crusading.

And grace means there is nothing we can do to make God love us less-
no amout of racism
or pride
or porn
or adultery
or even murder.

Grace is not fair. It means that God forgives us before we are able to really say sorry.

God in heaven holds each person by a string. When you sin, you cut the string. Then God, through Christ on the cross, ties it up again, making a knot- and thereby bringing you a little closer to him. Again and again your sins cut the string- and with each further knot God, through the sacrifice of Easter, keeps drawing you closer and closer and closer...

No single definition can encapsulate such an earth shattering idea. Maybe that is why Jesus told us about it in terms of a story.

But the best definition for grace I can come up with is:
It (and not virtue) is the opposite of sin.

Sapien

So how does one go about being damned?

Excelsior

By choosing it.

Christ was an atonement. Literally, you can be at-one-with God again. Faith, acknowledging that string has been retied and following through on the consequences of that is what Christianity is about.

Equally, if you choose to ignore the retied string, then you choose that. If you wish to be seperated from God, he will give you over to your wishes.

Sapien

Ah. We come to faith so quickly.

So, is that all there is to it? Grace and Faith?

Excelsior

I initially wrote a smartass response but the answer is yes. That is all there is to it.

Christianity is defined by this Grace which makes it different from all the other religions and worldviews which are fundamentally karmic. You get what you give in some formulation or other is something that people can understand, it is something on their scale.

Christianity says to that, "Get serious. You are not on God's scale. He is the creator. You are the creature. You can't give to him what he already has. If you have messed things up (as all religions or worldviews agree we have in some way) with a God who is actually God then we won't be able to make good on that.

So God makes good on it at his own cost. That cost is the cross. God is perfectly just so consequences have to be paid for the sins committed by humanity. Yet he is also perfect love and through Christ and Easter he manages to be both perfectly just and perfectly loving.

That is all there is to it. But if that is, if it is true, then there are logical conclusions you won't be able to avoid about Jesus Christ being who he said he was. If this is true, you have to reorganise your life around this momentous news.

But here grace comes in again. Christ is not a religion. All the other religions or world views are formulated on the basis of some kind of transaction; do this to please God, or do this to appease the gods, or do this to elevate yourself to the higher being or do this to defeat the tyranny of capital etc. All systems are pretty much about you doing things to restore the relationship with the deep cosmic truth, whatever form that takes.

Yet if you take this Grace thing seriously and start following the teaching of Christ, you are not doing it to win God's favour or to restore relationship. You are rather doing it because relationship has been restored. You are doing it out of gratitude, not fear. You are doing it out of appreciation, not gain.

That is Grace. It is one amazing thought.

Danno

Very well said!

mandala

Thank you, Excelsior, for your beautiful reflections on grace! I particularly enjoyed your first reply. Many of us were brought up with an image of God that is in total contradiction with the God we find in the Bible, the loving God of the parable of the prodigal son, for example. So we need to be reminded! Thank you for doing it so well.
This is my first experience with a "chat board", and I'm not sure this is the right place to ask - is there a discussion of "A Course in Miracles" anywhere on the board, and if not how can I start one?

p.s. It's ok, I have found the thread i was looking for!