Clocking - How to stop it ?

Silvera

I am currently seeking a 3-5 year old car and during my search it has really struck home how widespread clocking of cars seems to be in Ireland.

There was also a major story in The Star recently (I don't buy it-a colleague gave me a copy) about how two guys were caught on camera clocking a jeep owned by a journalist.......the mileage was reduced from c.82,000 to 42,000 !
These guys advertise to "correct" the mileage on cars for a fee, i.e. reduce the mileage ! :mad:

What can be done to stop clocking of cars/deceit on such a scale ?

- Introduce larger fines ?
- Ban advertising of "mileage correction" services ?
- Make it compulsory to include the mileage on all change of ownership forms, etc. ?


(Motorists in Ireland could also make a better effort to retain reciepts, past NCT certs, etc. in order to prove mileage (and service history!) when selling their cars!!)

Squirrel

The milage should be recorded in another place in the car, 'twould be funny if they clocked it and it was found out to be higher at another source

Gurgle

Mileage doesn't mean much these days.

With an average speed of 0.2 mph in a 30 mile radius of Dublin, the engine is wearing down in neutral more than while moving.

If your buying a car, get somebody you trust to give it a good look over & a test drive.

btw, other than the creative fiction that is the star, what makes you think cars are clocked a lot ?

Alun

In Holland they had a scheme whereby every time you took you car in for a service at any reputable garage, they recorded the mileage and entered it onto a central database. AFAIK it was organized by BOVAG, the Dutch motor trade organisation.

Squirrel

Gurgle wrote:

btw, other than the creative fiction that is the star, what makes you think cars are clocked a lot ?

There is some simple things such as the wear on pedals/gear lever/seats etc., also how the car handles, the suspension and gearbox should still feel in good condition on a low milage car, generally.

This is like the book the Witches by Road Dahl, these aren't all big things but put them together and there's a high possibility that the car's been clocked

Seth Brundle

The mileage is recorded every time the car is dealt with by a dealer so it will be on their logs.
The mileage is also recorded and shown on the NCT paperwork.

Ratchet

kbannon wrote:

..........
The mileage is also recorded and shown on the NCT paperwork.

not on 4 years old car

AMurphy

Silvera wrote:

I am currently seeking a 3-5 year old car and during my search it has really struck home how widespread clocking of cars seems to be in Ireland.

......

What can be done to stop clocking of cars/deceit on such a scale ?

- Introduce larger fines ?
- Ban advertising of "mileage correction" services ?
- Make it compulsory to include the mileage on all change of ownership forms, etc. ?

......
!!)

I don't think you can do much about it except make it impossible. i fail to see why the makers, do not have this facility installed already if for no other reason than to protect their name.
it should be possible to electronically store the number in several locations throughout the vehicle, given most cars these days have several on-board computers which communicate constantly.

Stiffer fines, etc will only work if there is actual patroling. like as with petrol pumps, there is the Weights and Measures inspector who verifies the pump is pumping per the meter.
So some undercover detective work would easily ferret out the scumbags.
Having a tie-in between the NCT and registration depts may help record some past mileages, but recording it every 2 years is ample room for a 20~30k mils scam.

Any garage here can perform the "NCT" if they obtain the specific liscense. however, the DMV (registration authority) do perform random checks on them, I know cause the owner of the place, I used for all my cars told me he got a 6 month suspension as one of his mechanics was cheating.

but even with that, there is still a lot of scum escaping detection.

example; a co-worker here had his ca broken into and the airbags surgicaly removed, that was all that was taken. It would not be worthwhile for soeone to take airbags, unless there was a good market for "grey market" airbags.
So the thief gets $500 for them, but the repair shop will charge $1500 each for them to repair a crashed car.

Seth Brundle

Ratchet wrote:

not on 4 years old car

true but at least on some older cars there is a record of the mileage taken at least every two years.
Also with cars under 4 years who don't need the NCT, these will have spent most of their lives being serviced by dealers whilst under warranty so in theory a record is retained.

Ratchet

true, up to 3 years, carsy more likely will have service history


3-4 years old imports from uk are more likely to be clocked .

unkel

Just have the ECU read out with the manufacturers software installed on a pc. Will sing like a canary

Gurgle

Squirrel wrote:

There is some simple things such as the wear on pedals/gear lever/seats etc., also how the car handles, the suspension and gearbox should still feel in good condition on a low milage car, generally.

This is like the book the Witches by Road Dahl, these aren't all big things but put them together and there's a high possibility that the car's been clocked

Hmmm, yes, me understandy...

but if it handles crap OR has badly worn pedals OR suspension / gearbox feels tatty, its probably not a good buy even with genuine low mileage.

jayok

When you say clocking I assume you mean the mechanical milage (or meterage)? Newer cars has a digital readout, I assume this is harder to change?

Maybe not, I suppose it's just a computer than can be programmed....

murphaph

jayok wrote:

When you say clocking I assume you mean the mechanical milage (or meterage)? Newer cars has a digital readout, I assume this is harder to change?

Silvera

Clocking is a big problem here in Ireland, as is the case in the UK and elsewhere.

However, at least in the UK you can access information more easily and so reduce the likelyhood of buying a 'clocked' car.

Incidentially, when I was living in New Zealand last year I was able to make a phone call (pay $25) and check the history of any car I was thinking of buying.

Talking about accessing garage records is somewhat pointless, many garages won't give out such information (i.e. couldn't be bothered looking it up for you) - even if they actually have it recorded!


I know what to look for on high mileage cars, worn pedals etc. as I worked in the motor trade for 6 years.

However, most people don't have this expertise and more is needed to be done to combat 'clocking'.

stratos

The milometer is irellevant when your buying a second hand car. You shouldn't even look at it. There are many other things will tell you about the cars condition. Plus a car with a hard 40,000 miles would be a worse buy than a 80,000 miler with motorway cruising. There are all the usual checks, but don't forget the vendor, how he comes across to you will tell you a lot about the car.

Funk Daddy

Gurgle wrote:

With an average speed of 0.2 mph in a 30 mile radius of Dublin, the engine is wearing down in neutral more than while moving.

Don't be so stupid.

Funk Daddy

murphaph wrote:

Why did you laugh at the first part of his post, and conveniently leave out the part where he corrected himself?

Silvera

:rolleyes: ............I reckon I'm wasting my time with this thread - most people here just don't get it!

the_syco

Silvera wrote:

:rolleyes: ............I reckon I'm wasting my time with this thread - most people here just don't get it!

Any bright idea's on how a system can work in Ireland?

HashSlinging

its just a fact of life, if you are scared of buying a second hand car then dont. Why not try a main dealer! if you want to buy second hand then look at the pit falls, most garages give warranty if not walk away.. Private ads are different you need a second opinion or third. ...its your money ;¬)

you sound as if your surprised at the fact the cars here are clocked, what have you been looking at. Ireland is no different from any other country, even the most strict countries have been sussed by the cowboys!!

unkel

the_syco wrote:

Any bright idea's on how a system can work in Ireland?

Eh, yeah! Read out the ECU

Silvera

the_syco wrote:

Any bright idea's on how a system can work in Ireland?

As I stated in my first post ........

- Heavier fines for 'clocking'
- Compulsory inclusion of mileage when completing transfer of ownership form(s)
- Access to NCT records of mileage (through some other medium, e.g. tax office)

etc etc

Clocking is not taken seriously in Ireland by 'officialdom', but people are being scammed on a daily basis by dealers/sellers selling cars maskarading as having less mileage than they actually have done.

I have personally seen main dealer cars (during my time in the motor trade) for sale which have much more mileage on them than displayed by the milometer!

Silvera

HashSlinging wrote:

its just a fact of life, if you are scared of buying a second hand car then dont. Why not try a main dealer! if you want to buy second hand then look at the pit falls, most garages give warranty if not walk away.. Private ads are different you need a second opinion or third. ...its your money ;¬)

you sound as if your surprised at the fact the cars here are clocked, what have you been looking at. Ireland is no different from any other country, even the most strict countries have been sussed by the cowboys!!

I'm not 'scared' of buying secondhand - far from it!!
...........I've just bought a s/h car today based on my own assesment of the vehicle !

(No way would I pay main dealer (stealer!) prices ! )

I'm not surprised at the fact that cars are clocked - I've seen dozens of obviously clocked cars (and some less obvious to the untrained eye!) over my years in the motor trade - I'm merely raising the topic to let people know what is happening out there ............ and perhaps in some way effect a change in official attiudes to this widespread deciet (some chance!).

.........however it would seem that I am a voice in the wilderness on this board

AMurphy

I get it and agree with your, but until such time as there are "official" systems which establish accurate records, which are easy to verify, I cannot see the motor trade being a very efficient at self-policing.
And, as far as I can see, the Gov's first question will be, "what's in it for me", i.e. revenue, - no. vots? – no. Forget it.
If it costs more than it earns and does not yield votes, forget it for another 10~20 years.

So unless you want to start up a "for profit" system yourself, like the NCT... you are stuck between the uncaring and unscrupulous. Thank your lucky stars you can check out a car.

I have a story from 20 years ago. A co-worker in Limerick, treaded in a car to Ryans (Fiat Garage on the West side of town at the time), he went in a few weeks later, a noticed his old car back in the showroom, with the clock would back a few Kmls.

So it’s obviously an old story.

btw, while you are on your box, you may as well add in the reson given for removing plates from cars in crashes, ie to hide the identity of crashed & repaired vehicles. That shoudl be contained in the same governing scheme. I have heard of 2 half cars (write offs) being welded together to make one.
So as a minimum the VIN number shoudl be stamped in teh engine bay, boot, and door pilliars.... as well on any tags attached to teh vehicle.. is it?.

smash

With imported cars from the UK you can run an HPI check and get all the cars details. I hear ther will soon be a check available for Irish cars. This should help. I recently got stung on a car I bought that was clocked.

Seth Brundle

Silvera wrote:

I've just bought a s/h car today based on my own assesment of the vehicle !

Watcha get?

maidhc

How about putting back the old fashioned mileometers? Anything with an EEPROM is by definition going to be erasable, it is less profitable to spend a few hours messing with a reversable black and decker...

Also an hour clock would be a useful and cheap addition. We would know then things like the average speed of the car over its lifetime, or if it spent most of its days idling. Actually an hour clock linked the the revolutions of the engine where 1 hr = average revolutions is an even more satisfactory solution.. been fitted to machinery since long before I was born.

Another solution would be to put the computer interface on the face of the dial and cover it with a tearable hologram. You could hide it in a corner or something, but just so it could easily be verified.

Laws arent the answer, nor is the government to blame.

lomb

some guy in the uk got 2 years for clocking, he was charged and convicted of obtaining property by deception.
high mile cars are wrecked imho. i dont buy all this motorway mile mumbo jumbo. the more miles the more wear on gearboxes, engines, drive trains, stearing, shocks, suspension, interior wear, exausts, even the body shell as it twists with every passing mile and u get rattle build up in the interior.
i think the solution is buyers being vigilent and only buying stuff that has some history, theres only so much big brother can do. in the uk they are taking it a step furthur and doing the sellers selling clocked cars. i wouldnt lose any sleep if they did that here but i doubt it will happen with the irish mentality.
a hologram over the display is an excellent idea imho but knowing how deep seated clocking is i can gaurantee u professional clockers will be printing up holograms...

byte

maidhc wrote:

Also an hour clock would be a useful and cheap addition. We would know then things like the average speed of the car over its lifetime, or if it spent most of its days idling. Actually an hour clock linked the the revolutions of the engine where 1 hr = average revolutions is an even more satisfactory solution.. been fitted to machinery since long before I was born.

I'm surprised, this isn't on cars already. They've been on heavier machinery for years. Though, I guess if speedo's can be clocked, then so can the hour counter.

Hotwheels

unfortunately the ECU in most cars can be written to very easily making it a snap (relatively) to change the Mileage. Anyone buying a car should pay the €€€ for a proper AA inspection. If there is anything to be found, they'll find it... Worn pedals, steering wheels etc can be replaced...

The only other option would be to employ some sort of encryption algorithm in the ECU to encrypt the mileage data being stored....

I'm afraid its buyer beware when it comes to buying a car...