DHL loses my parcel, now wants €

BrianD

As I said before. This posting has nothing to do with "Rip Off Ireland". It should be in Consumer Affairs, Administrative Blunders or the thread closed.

BTW they say if you ever murder someone you should box it up and get the aforementioned courier company to collect it. That way the evidence will be lost forever!

skywalker

Why would you be paying them anything, since you never got the mp3 player?

ambro25

Because I don't want to be black-listed by credit agencies for €12.87 after a CCJ (or the equivalent of a CCJ in Ireland)? I might have principles and fight the good fight after those, but not to the point of stupidity.

@BrianD - are you a Mod? If so, can you move the thread appropriately? If not, you have made your point earlier in the thread, so please be quiet now.

ambro25

Got reply from ODCA. No help, as
(i) it's not their remit, being more appropriate for the Commission for Communications Regulation (Comreg)
(ii) it represents a dispute between two parties to a contract regarding its implementation, whereby
(iii) if this matter cannot be resolved amicably between the parties to their mutual satisfaction, then they recommend that I seek legal advice.

So, well... no joy there either

CJhaughey

Why does that not surprise me? a Government dept actually doing something?
naaaaah.

Our man in Havana

I do not honestly believe that DHL would take you to court for €13. I would simply just forget about it. If they did sue you for €13 you would win anyways.

RainyDay

Get a phone with a conference call facility and get both DHL & the debt collectors onto a conf call - tell them to talk to each other to sort this out and just hang on the line until they do.

Velcrow

best of luok with this - and keep us posted - don't worry about " what forum it should be in " great post - good effort.

Our man in Havana

RainyDay wrote:

Get a phone with a conference call facility and get both DHL & the debt collectors onto a conf call - tell them to talk to each other to sort this out and just hang on the line until they do.

It seems that the debt collectors and DHL are one and the same.

ambro25

Don't know if they are 'as such'. Given the size of DHL, the distinctly English accent of the last Lady I spoke to, and the fact that IJ are part of Legal & General, big UK debt colletion agency - I'd say that Legal & General have a few people based in the UK that do DHL debts only.

Not heard anything further from any party - yet. Canadian shop keeps sending me 'reassurance' emails (3 to 4 days, I tell thee!!! :rolleyes: ), no mail/email/calls from DHL or their hounds.

CJhaughey

Give em a "Bump"

Winters

Just a few things.

DHL charge €17 for having to deal with customs duty and paying any import tax. I know that as I've had to pay it several times including last week .. .and probably again tomorrow. You can also look on dhl.ie and it should state it there.

With any order from DHL that has been shipped from overseas I have always had them call me around 9:30am with the details of how much COD I'm going to have to pay [Import Tax + The €17 fee].

If you track the package did it ever actually ever arrive in Dublin and pass customs? Seeing as though it never arrived to you and you were never contacted I fail to see how you are stuck with customs in Ireland [unless its some weird export duty from Canada]

And, providing the Parcel is marked correctly it should be insured. Its very rare stuff will actually disappear like that.

Also, shouting down a phone isint going to get you anywhere. Be calm and they will be more inclined to give you some respect. Make sure you get past the first line of helpful assistants though and get onto someone more seinor.

ambro25

Winters wrote:

DHL charge €17 for having to deal with customs duty and paying any import tax (etc.)

The DHL invoice I have in my hands does not state, detail, nor claim any such €17 "admin fee". It is clearly labelled 'Import/VAT Duty Invoice'.

Winters wrote:

If you track the package did it ever actually ever arrive in Dublin and pass customs? Seeing as though it never arrived to you and you were never contacted I fail to see how you are stuck with customs in Ireland [unless its some weird export duty from Canada].

As per the thread, as far as I know and what I know is from DHL Irish staff, no, the parcel never left Canada.

There is no export duty from Canada that I am aware of, and if there was then I would not expect it to be payable by a foreign recipient, it would be invoiced to and have to be acquitted by the Canadian seller (as per std international import/export supranational Incoterms).

You may fail to see how I am stuck with customs in Ireland. I'd reply that I'm not stuck with customs in Ireland, I'm stuck with:
(i) the Canadian store, upon whom I depend totally for a refund and
(ii) DHL Ireland and their hounds, for wanting me to pay an Import/VAT Duty invoice for stuff that was never even despatched from Canada.

I'd also reply that I don't however fail to see how I'm stuck in this situation, given that the parcel was probably despatched, barcoded by DHL, and whereas the cardboard full of eletronics never made it across the Ocean, the barcode's littles 0s and 1s in DHL's super-efficient admin system did make it, well in advance of the parcel that got waylaid, and carried on their merry little way through the DHL account system down to my doormat

Winters wrote:

And, providing the Parcel is marked correctly it should be insured. Its very rare stuff will actually disappear like that.

I agree, and I should have been reimbursed a long time ago. When the online store isn't based in Ireland, never mind in Europe, that's easier said than done... Happily, I will attest to well over 1,000 online transactions over the past 9 years, and such 'bad' occasions I count on the fingers of one hand.

Winters wrote:

Also, shouting down a phone isint going to get you anywhere. Be calm and they will be more inclined to give you some respect. Make sure you get past the first line of helpful assistants though and get onto someone more seinor.

Now then, I'm puzzled here. Where, exactly, did I state/post that I had been "shouting down a phone" with anyone? Anyhow, thanks for the first-grader advice, I'm sure it'll be useful to some other reader

EDIT: Of course, the one alternative I have not yet voiced...sorry, typed herein, is that maybe the parcel did make it across the Ocean, and someone in/around Dublin who works for DHL or has a mate who does, now sports a state-of-the-art, import mp3 player... but that would be slander and we'll have none of that

John R

ambro25 wrote:

... but that would be slander and we'll have none of that

Speaking of slander...

A few years ago I (well my mother but it was delegated to me) was in a similar situation with Vodafone and a debt collection agency.

Basically she had correctly cancelled a phone contract in writing by registered letter (which I had insisted on as they had been very evasive when she had tried to cancel on the phone) and they had kept billing her anyway.

Believe it or not a day after the letter had been delivered they phoned up to tell her that she had sent the letter to the wrong address and she would have to send another to the correct one. Basically she told them to fukk off and that as far as she was concerned the account was closed.

My mother's hatred of all things technical came in useful at this stage. She had always paid by cheque so they had no way of stealing the money electronically and no further cheques were sent (including the final payment which was owed, I wasn't goint to consider sending it until they had acknowledged the account as closed per the original letter)

The monthly bills kept coming as usual with increasingly severe demands for payment. I sent one or two short letters explaining that the account had been cancelled and no further payment was owed but got no response other than more monthly bills.

After about 8 months the bills stopped to be replaced by demands from a debt collection agency, apparently the phone service had been suspended but they were still going to charge the monthly rental rate.

The letters from the debt agency got increasingly nasty, threatening legal action, court costs, calls to the house, and embarrassment in front of the neighbours, apparently their collector "may be known to you" (probably a standart ploy but I alway wondered...)
At this stage the amount they were demanding was for a few hundred € and each letter gave a (different) deadline for payment.

---Finally, the slander bit---

I sent ONE carefully worded letter to the boss of the debt collection agency. The language I used was not abusive but it certainly was not polite. In it I outlined the valid termination of the account and threatened that any further demands for money would result in legal action against them for harrassment and against them and Vodafone for defamation of character by libel and slander.

I expected that they would keep on trying but that was the end of the correspondence from them which at that stage had become weekly.
Basically calling their bluff over their willingness to go to the (big) expense of Irish court action worked a treat. I had actually intended on harrassing them for my time and expenses in dealing with their correspondence but I never did, kinda wish I had now.

The libel action threat although basically idle (who wants the hassle or expense) is legally valid. Company A passing your details to company B as a bad debtor where you are in fact not is a clear cut case of libel and with the irish libel laws the oness is on the defendant to prove they are correct.

I would bet that all their threats are idle and as soon as you make clear that you will not be paying for what you do not owe they will back off, it is bullying tactics plain and simple, they do it because it works on most people.

Our man in Havana

Great post there John_R

The thing with debt collectors is that 90% of it is bullsh1t. They buy the debts off big companies like vodafone DHL etc for pennies on the euro and then they unleash their brand of correspondance. If they get any sort of payment it means a profit for them.

Ruu_Old

ah here! i dealt with Interium Justita as well, who were working "on behalf" of Esat BT who apparently leaves it in their hands. Tried to sort it out with someone at Esat BT but no, yer man wanted the whole lot right away or set the debt collectors on me, right ponce he was, right snobby sounding git. Basically told him to feck off with it and then we called "IJ" as he kept referring to them as, when i called them to settle a particular No Limits account :rolleyes: they were very nice about it and we cut a deal in half of what i had to pay and even let me pay in installments (especially when Esat BT wanted the FULL AMOUNT RIGHT AWAY! Damn it such a pain sometimes you cant get any satisfaction! Anyway i hope you get it sorted out, collection agencies are a load of balls, dont let them get away with a penny (though i think a few jam jars of pennies would be hilarious)

bounty

go on john, take them to court, we'll all come and sit in your cheering section on the day

jor el

Contact the shop and demand a refund immediately. Tell them if you don't get the refund you'll lodge a complaint with you credit card company against them, that usually makes a company act quickly as loosing the use of credit cards is the death of an online store.

The shop's gripe is with DHL loosing the parcel, this is not your fault. You are entitled to a refund immediately and the shop can chase DHL for the insurance value.

Next, ring DHL Ireland and demand a stop to the bogus bills they have sent you. Tell them that you are issuing legal proceedings against them, and IJ if you like, for fraud. They have made up a non-existent bill for you to pay, this is illegal.

If you want to, you could take everything you have right now to a solicitor and get proper advice on how to proceed, I suspect he'll tell you something similar to what I just said, only it'll be legally accurate and will obviously cost money. If, as I suspect, DHL are completely in the wrong then you could issue a Small Claims Court proceeding to get them to pay for your legal advice which you had to take because of their stupidity and illegal activities.

My guess though is the threat of legal action will make them back off.

Hope it all works out.

ambro25

Mods - this can now be moved to the new 'Biz' Forum.

Update? Well, I've not heard nothing since last, and got p*ssed last night as things and others were mulling around 'up there' so I've put both DHL and IJ on 2 weeks' notice (by recorded delivery) before action (instruct sollicitor). I'll edit this post with copy/pasting the letters later...

...and while I was at it, reported the Canadina online store to Paypal using Paypal's internal complaint procedure. I'm well outta time there (45 days of purchase), but thought "what the hell... if I don't ask I'll never get"

CJhaughey

bumpity bump

ambro25

You're a bit nosey, aint'cha

No update, clock still ticking - Oh, while I'm at it (both sent "Signed For"):

DHL Express
Attn of Accounts Dept
Cargo Terminal 2
Dublin


Dear Sirs, Madam,

Re. Your Invoice No. D*******7
Intrum Justitia reference 1*****0

Further to receiving correspondence from Intrum Justitia (copy enclosed), which claim to have been instructed by yourselves to collect the amount of €12.87 corresponding to the invoice in subject above, and my subsequent telephone conversation with your services (‘Margaret’ on 29/07/05), who could not provide me with any satisfactory help with this matter, may I hereby state for clarity of the record that, further to placing an order for an mp3 player with a Canadian store in February 2005 for delivery within 4 days by DHL:

(i) in February 2005, your Canadian services failed to despatch to Ireland the item that is the subject of the above-referenced “VAT-DUTY Invoice”;

(ii) in March 2005, you issued me with a first “VAT-DUTY Invoice” for an amount (€21.94) close to double what the correct amount should have been;

(iii) in March 2005 still, I called your services and you issued me with a second “VAT-DUTY Invoice” for the correct amount of €12.87 and I requested that a trace be put on the overdue parcel/delivery;

(I note that I was never issued with a credit note corresponding to the first, incorrect invoice)

(iv) in April 2005, your services explicitly stated by phone to me, further to attempting to determine the whereabouts of the parcel at my request:
(a) that DHL Canada were at fault,
(b) that DHL Express (Ireland) had never taken delivery of the parcel,
(c) that I would have to sort the matter with the store and DHL Canada and
(d) that you were classing it as ‘lost’

(I note that I was never issued with a credit note corresponding to the second invoice, which has no legal basis (no factual import) or commercial basis (no physical processing or delivery in Ireland), nor did I ever receive confirmation in writing of the loss in transit of the parcel corresponding to my order)

(v) in July 2005, I received the enclosed from Intrum Justitia and contacted your services on 29 July 2005 about the matter, and was put in touch with ‘Margaret’;

(vi) Margaret explicitly stated by phone that I would have to contact Intrum Justitia myself and request of them that they lodge an enquiry with yourself to obtain the facts of this particular debt collection, even though –presumably– I would have expected yourselves to have already provided this information to Intrum Justitia for engaging in as serious a task as debt collection;

(vii) I therefore contacted Intrum Justitia on the same day, who were apparently at a loss further to my request (following Margaret’s instructions) that they lodge the enquiry in question – apparently it is not a procedure with which they are familiar at all or regularly engage in. I was eventually passed onto a further person who assured me that they would look into the matter and contact me back within a matter of days.

I note that, as of the date of this letter, I have not received any further information from yourselves or Intrum Justitia about this matter, either orally by phone or in written form, so that I cannot conceivably consider the matter closed for all parties involved. I am assuming that, from the tone and content of Intrum Justitia’s letter and their much-less-than-friendly manners where “debtor” phone enquiries are concerned, that Intrum Justitia may yet initiate “further proceedings”.

May I therefore request that:
• You determine at once that the VAT and Import Invoice D*******7 is in relation to goods which never entered Ireland, hopefully from merely glancing at your manifests and internal records, and which is therefore null and void;
• You issue me at once with the relevant credit notes;
• You notify Intrum Justitia at once that the debt which you have instructed them to recover from me is null and void and that their file reference 1*****0 is to be closed;
• You confirm all of the above in writing to me at the above address by 31st August 2005 at the very latest.

I value my credit rating well above the sum involved and have an unblemished credit history. I have endured sufficient ineptitude from all parties involved, including your services, and will have no choice but to refer the matter to my solicitor and provide appropriate instructions to obtain compensation for the time, expense and stress which your apparent lack of basic record-keeping has caused me, should the above tasks not be met by the end of indicated period.

Yours sincerely,
ambro25

Intrum Justitia Collections (Ireland) Ltd
Attn of E Ball, Collections Manager
First Floor, Block C,
Ashtown Gate
Navan Road
Dublin 15


Dear Mr Ball,

Re. DHL Invoice No. D*******7
(as client account number on your correspondence)

Further to receiving your correspondence of 27 July 2005, in which you claim to have been instructed by DHL Express to collect the amount of €12.87 corresponding to the invoice in subject above, and my subsequent telephone conversation with your services on 29/07/05, who could not provide me with any satisfactory help with this matter, please find enclosed copy of a letter addressed this day to your client by recorded delivery, for your files and information.

For the record, kindly note that I am contesting the debt, which I believe to be null and void by reason of (i) the imported item to which it relates having never entered the Republic of Ireland, i.e. having never been imported, due to DHL Canada having lost the parcel, and obviously (ii) myself never having taken delivery of the item, such that I cannot conceivably be held liable for the invoiced import duty or VAT.

Furthermore, and in view of these facts, I likewise believe that any further attempts by DHL and/or yourselves as instructed by DHL to recover the sum would constitute fraud, which I will have no choice but to report to Comreg where DHL is concerned and also, naturally, to the Revenue Commissioner and their investigative branch where both DHL and yourselves are concerned.

Further to requesting from DHL that they instruct your to close the file in view of the above, or further to yourselves ascertaining the facts of the issue at hand, I would therefore welcome your written confirmation that this matter is now solved for all parties involved, at your earliest convenience.

Yours sincerely,
ambro25

Our man in Havana

Mr E Ball?

He rings a bell. He is also the collections manager for a few other fly by night collection companies all of the same address. The same address also harbours a firm of fake solictors who send out unsigned demands on behalf of the aforementioned mr Ball.

WizZard

The plot thickens...

Impressive letters BTW.

CJhaughey

Stylin! I like the tone of your letters, threatening in a nice way:/

Newshound

Surely your contract to buy the item involves you receiving the item.
You havent received it, so they are not entitled to charge you for it.
Try disputing the charge on your credit card and see what the credit card company has to say.

Velcrow

Any development on this!

ambro25

Newshound wrote:

Surely your contract to buy the item involves you receiving the item.
You havent received it, so they are not entitled to charge you for it.
Try disputing the charge on your credit card and see what the credit card company has to say.

Not paid via Paypal + CC, paid via Paypal funds (i.e. from my own auctions, not siphonned off my CC), so can't chargeback.

No news yet.

(i) I have registered a complaint with Paypal, which has not been confirmed yet (I may have been well out of time for it as I complained quite a while after the 45 days limit).

(ii) I have notified the store that I have filed the complaint and I have offered to withdraw it if they refund me in a timely manner, else I will let the matter run its course.

(ii) The Small Claims Court application form is filled and ready, I intend to file on 01/10/05.

Borat_Sagdiyev

Any update on this? I really hope you get these @ssholes.

Power to the people!

Baz_

Thread of the Month(s, year perhaps)!

This is one hell of a classy thread, and a joy to read. How are things looking now ambro?

Hope you're getting somewhere with the stup.... better not, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Man fighting the good fight does make you feel empowered, even reading about it does.

Good man, fair balls to you.

Baz_

jor el

This kinda reminds me of www.man1bank0.com which is also a great read if you have a spare couple of hours.

Any update on the small claims application?