CL2QR2L Shelbourne FC -v- Steaua Bucharest (Agg 0:0)

Kingp35

Kingp35 wrote:

If they play for the draw or play deep they will be beaten easily. The goal will evenyually come and the heads will drop. They need to offer an attacking threat and try to score. This will force steau back and release the pressure on the defense which is vital in a European game.

If Fenlon plays the right tactics shels have a chance but I feel he will do the usual thing and tell his team to sit and soak pressure and because of this shels will go out.

This is what I said before the match and I was dead right. Why do teams choose to sit back and defend when its obvious that simply are not good enough to sit and defend for an entire game. Mistakes will be made although you do not expect to see mistakes of that sort that even my soccer team wouldnt make. An absolute joke is all I can say. Fenlon got it totally wrong. I said if he plays defensive then Steau will score and it will go downhill from there. He chooses to leave out the attacking players.

Shels are a terrible footballing side. They simply had no midfield players on that pitch last night who could hold the ball up, play a few passes around to relieve pressure and to keep a level head. Instead they played one or two passes along the back then a long ball up to Crowe who loses the ball as he runs as fast as I can walk. Steau then simply came back down the pitch again. Why didnt Fenlon at least start Ndo so shels could offer an attacking threat? They need to find midfielders who can play football. Heary was another one whos distribution was simply terrible, There is no point winning tackles if you just give the ball right back to the opposition again.

Im really disappointed because I thought shels were better than that. When they try and go forward they look like a decent side, as when Wes came on, and this stops the pressure on the defence as well. They left it way too late and Fenlons tactics really have to be blamed but I predicted he would play that way and he did. terrible management.

gimmick wrote:

Shels didnt embarrass themselves last night. The went out to a better team, who the scoreline flatterred

They did go out to a better side but they certainly alos embarrassed themselves. the defending was comical. Crawley was an absolute joke who should be ashamed of himself, Delaney was also rubbish for the third goal. If you were a European person who doesnt know much of shels and you were watching that game you would be laughing your head off at how terrible those goals were. To me that is an absolute embarrassment towards our league.

Its up to Cork to keep the flag flying for the EL now. Lets hope everyone gets behind them.

I wanna say hard luck to shels they did well up until last night but they really let themselves down big time with a diabolical performance at the most crucial time

Pigman II

seansouth wrote:

having watched Steaua and Split over the past two years, I think Steaua are by far the superior team.

That's exactly my point. I'm wondering did Shels only make it to round 3 last season purely because they were lucky enough to draw two awful teams in rounds 1 and 2? Basically are we just kidding ourselves that our top teams are making any real progress?

thejollyrodger

I think there defintely has been progress in Europe but its not as much as we all thought. Steaua are a good team, defintely better than Shels but it was more Shels throwing the game away that Steaua really winning it.

Steaua scored one very good goal, the long ball. The rest were a series of comical errors ,lack of concentration and lack of leadership.

It took English clubs years to break into Europe after the long ban. We can defintely get one club into the group stages and maybe another club in UEFA Cup but its going to take a lot more effort and a lot more money.

Big Ears

Pigman II wrote:

That's exactly my point. I'm wondering did Shels only make it to round 3 last season purely because they were lucky enough to draw two awful teams in rounds 1 and 2? Basically are we just kidding ourselves that our top teams are making any real progress?

Well in fairness Hadjuk were a much better team last year . Their problem was they had budgeted to reach to 3rd round and when they didn't they almost went bankrupt , causing them a lot of problems . I was very suprised they still managed to win the Croatian league .

I think progress has been made , and I would give Cork a good chance against Djungarden . It wasn't that long ago Cork were called a crisis club .

applehunter

Thats not a logical arguement.

Because of Shels beating last year it was a financial disaster for Split. Hence they have a crap team.

What about Deportivo, they beat Newcastle last night.

Stupid arguement.

Out top team have made huge strides in the past 5 years. More progress in 5 years than in the previous 25 probably.

gimmick

applehunter wrote:

Out top team have made huge strides in the past 5 years. More progress in 5 years than in the previous 25 probably.

Remember, its only 6 years simce SPA lost 10-0 on aggregates to a Moldovan team, 3 years since Shels went out to Hibernians of Malta.

There have been huge strides made by most clubs (apart from Longford it would seem). No longer is a narrow defeat and a big gate good enough, only progess is tolerated and hard luck stories are a thing of the past.

Slash/ED

Kingp35 wrote:

T
Shels are a terrible footballing side. They simply had no midfield players on that pitch last night who could hold the ball up, play a few passes around to relieve pressure and to keep a level head. Instead they played one or two passes along the back then a long ball up to Crowe who loses the ball as he runs as fast as I can walk. Steau then simply came back down the pitch again. Why didnt Fenlon at least start Ndo so shels could offer an attacking threat? They need to find midfielders who can play football. Heary was another one whos distribution was simply terrible, There is no point winning tackles if you just give the ball right back to the opposition again.

Im really disappointed because I thought shels were better than that. When they try and go forward they look like a decent side, as when Wes came on, and this stops the pressure on the defence as well. They left it way too late and Fenlons tactics really have to be blamed but I predicted he would play that way and he did. terrible management.

Spot on, the frustrating part is we are better than that. We have two mid fielders who are sublime footballers but one had an injury and only made a sub appearence and the other Fenlon idiotically choose not to play until the final ten minutes. If you're not going to play you're best players and get your team selection right you'll never do yourself justice. Look at Heary, everyones saying his distrubition was poor and it was and the reason was nobody in mid field ever showed for the ball, what else could he do?

It all changed when Wes and Ndo came on. We had players who wanted the ball, players with imagination in the mid field and imo controlled the game for that brief period. If we played like that for the 180 minutes we would have had a chance. The frustrating part is I doubt Fenlon will learn from his mistakes, he rarely does.

Pigman II

applehunter wrote:

Stupid arguement.

It wasn't an arguement, it was a question! Hense the '?'s at the end of the of the sentences.

If anyones here is making stupid comments then it's you for taking it as otherwise.

thejollyrodger

I agree with above two posts about progress EL clubs have made and the poor choice by Fenlon last night.

Spilit were devistated when we beat them. They were convinced they were in the third round. Shels look like a decent enough 2nd round team now. We used to be a 1st round team with some dreadful results.

Some clubs are too small to play in Europe. Longford, im sorry, but they are a disgrace. CCFC have done well in fairness. I think there is only a handful of clubs that can regularly get into the 2nd round constantly and push for the 3rd round.

If we were to play Steaua in a few days time again out in Romania and had our best team on the pitch with the best formation we would defintely give them a run for their money. Fenlon is unlikely to learn any lessons from this years adventure.

applehunter

Pigman II wrote:

It wasn't an arguement, it was a question! Hense the '?'s at the end of the of the sentences.

If anyones here is making stupid comments then it's you for taking it as otherwise.

Well I think it was a harsh Question so.

The Rooster

Personally I think Shels showed too much respect for Steaua Bucharest over the two legs. I'm not an Eircom league watcher, but from what I saw of the two games the only difference between the sides was attitude and comical defensive errors.

If Shels had have played both legs with a positive attitude of "lets beat these boys" and picked their best team to attempt to do that, I believe they would have got through.

I know some have said Hoolohan wasnt 100% so he couldnt be risked, but thats just giving Fenlon a cop out IMO. Play him from the start would have been the best way to get the most out of him.

The weakest part of the Steaua team was undoubtedly the defence - but it wasnt tested. If you had Hoolahan and Ndo starting instead of Cahill and Baker I believe Shels would have got at least the score draw last night. And if they hadnt they'd at least know that in defeat they gave it their best shot.

Slash/ED

The Rooster wrote:

Personally I think Shels showed too much respect for Steaua Bucharest over the two legs. I'm not an Eircom league watcher, but from what I saw of the two games the only difference between the sides was attitude and comical defensive errors.

If Shels had have played both legs with a positive attitude of "lets beat these boys" and picked their best team to attempt to do that, I believe they would have got through.

I know some have said Hoolohan wasnt 100% so he couldnt be risked, but thats just giving Fenlon a cop out IMO. Play him from the start would have been the best way to get the most out of him.

The weakest part of the Steaua team was undoubtedly the defence - but it wasnt tested. If you had Hoolahan and Ndo starting instead of Cahill and Baker I believe Shels would have got at least the score draw last night. And if they hadnt they'd at least know that in defeat they gave it their best shot.

Agreed

Really I could accept if we did ourselves justice, gave our best shot but ultimately weren't good enough but we didn't do that last night and that is the most gutting part of it. Had we done that, we could have taken them, definitely.

Draupnir

I dont think the players shels have would have been remotely close to the standard to "take" steaua at all. Steaua absolutely pissed all over Shelbourne last night for all but 5/10 minutes of the game.

Shels couldnt keep the ball, their passing was terrible and the organisation in defence was non existant.

It was an unfortunate reminder of the low quality on offer in the eL. Very disappointing to watch.

_blank_

Wes wasn't 100% last night. He maybe should have played from the start, for the first half, then have Ndo on to replace him, or maybe the opposite. Play Ndo for the first 45-60 mins, then get Weso on. Something.

As for the disorganised defence last night, well, what could have been done. We lost our best Centre Half of this season to a stupid suspension, Colin Hawkins. The two that did play were cur down to one after four minutes with the sending off of Rogers, and the other, Jamie Harris, is only back from a long term injury, so wasn't fully match fit. Crawley has no clue how to defend, and Bomber Heary is having a below par season, by his standards. Now when Rogers walked, Stuart Byrne had to drop back. He is not a centre half.

But nothing can account for Crawley's decision to play the ball back across the goalmouth. There are no excuses for this.

We lost. We lost badly. We have to learn that we might be in with a shout if the correct players play.

thejollyrodger

There is a excellent thread about the state of irish soccer. ITs at
http://shelbournefcchat.100megs35.com/chat/viewtopic.php?t=3750

Some excellent points made. Particularly by hand about Shelbourne having a inferoirty complex, school boy soccer being too competitive and Fenlon's questionable choice of players against Steaua.

ianomccabe

I'd agree with the part about schoolboy football being too competitive.

I played at the highest level in dublin and the competition from under 14 up to 18 was unreal compared to English and even european schoolboy leagues. Really has a detrimental effect on the development of players

Jivin Turkey

thejollyrodger wrote:

It took English clubs years to break into Europe after the long ban. We can defintely get one club into the group stages and maybe another club in UEFA Cup but its going to take a lot more effort and a lot more money.

An English side won one of the European competitions in their first year back fomr exile. Group stages for an EL team is miles off (incredible draw permitting). UEFA cup groups could be a realistic target.

As regards team selection last night, its all well and good in hindsight claim that Hoolohan should have started and Ndo should have started. But who's to say that if they did Shels wouldnt have lost 5-0, because Hoolohan couldnt handle the heat and was off the pace, and the inclusion of Ndo offered something going forward, but exposed the defence even more. While the exclusion of Ndo is debatable, Im sure Hoolohan would have started if he was up for it.

Slash/ED

Ndo would have offered alot more to the defence in his ability to retain possession and keep the pressure off. No doubt in my mind he should have started, no doubt in my mind he should start every Shelbourne game he's available for. He is head and shoulders above the majority of his team mates.

thejollyrodger

looks like UEFA will look into the racist chanting after al

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2005/0804/shelbourne.html UEFA to probe racist chants from Steaua fans
Thursday, 04 August 2005 1:39



Former Irish international Curtis Fleming the subject of racist abuse

UEFA have confirmed that they are to investigate racist chants and jeers directed at Shelbourne players by Steaua Bucharest fans during last night's Champions League qualifier.

Former Ireland international Curtis Fleming and Joseph Ndo both suffered racist abuse at the hands of the Bucharest supporters.

UEFA confirmed that their delegate at the match reported the abuse and Steaua will now face disciplinary action with the matter up for discussion at a meeting on August 18th.

Shel's boss Pat Fenlon slammed the behaviour of the Steaua fans and after the match said: "The one disappointing thing is that we have two black players on the field and they got abuse. It was unacceptable."

It was a disgrace no matter what those Steaua fans say it was. Its the Champions League and they should get a severe penality from UEFA.

Well I meant it took a long time for English clubs to break into Europe, I cant remember exactly but I know they didnt do so well in the beginning compared to before they left the competition and now.

Jivin Turkey

Slash/ED wrote:

Ndo would have offered alot more to the defence in his ability to retain possession and keep the pressure off.

I fully understand this, but the problem with this can be, he gets the ball takes it up field Crowe and Byrne get into attacking positions and then he is disposed, Steaua now have a break with three Shels players up field.

arbeitsscheuer

Slash/ED wrote:

Ndo would have offered alot more to the defence in his ability to retain possession and keep the pressure off. No doubt in my mind he should have started, no doubt in my mind he should start every Shelbourne game he's available for. He is head and shoulders above the majority of his team mates.

Absolutely 100% agree.
You could tell when he arrived at the club last season that he was of a quality that simply must be utilised in the big games. I was screaming for him to be put on at half time last night, but...
I also thought Crowe was off the pace last night, but who would you start instead?
At the end of the day, the result was to do with a) Negative tactics b) Consistently giving the ball away/Playing the long-ball ad infinitum c) Defensive naivity and no commanding presence at the back, and d) Our best outlets, Baker and Cahill, not being utilised anywhere near enough during the game.

thejollyrodger

I think Ndo should have defintely been played from the start. He had plenty of tricks up his sleve and when he got back to defend the defence could just give him the ball and not worry about losing it in a dangerous area. Its a far cry from the "kick it long " approach that was used all night

Slash/ED

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I fully understand this, but the problem with this can be, he gets the ball takes it up field Crowe and Byrne get into attacking positions and then he is disposed, Steaua now have a break with three Shels players up field.

Yeah but what's the alternative? Play someone like Baker/Moore/Cahill who make no effort to get on the ball or use it wisely when they do, which means the only option the defence have is to send it long, meaning you're suffering wave after wave of attack. Hearys distrubtion was awful last night for that reason and improved ten fold when Hoolahan and Ndo came on as he suddenly had options, he had mid fielders saying "I want the ball". Ultimately, you'll concede far less that way.

Jivin Turkey

Slash/ED wrote:

Yeah but what's the alternative? Play someone like Baker/Moore/Cahill who make no effort to get on the ball or use it wisely when they do, which means the only option the defence have is to send it long, meaning you're suffering wave after wave of attack. Hearys distrubtion was awful last night for that reason and improved ten fold when Hoolahan and Ndo came on as he suddenly had options, he had mid fielders saying "I want the ball". Ultimately, you'll concede far less that way.

A combination of the two will work. But you cant expect a single player (Ndo without Hoolohan) to take the ball out of defence every time. It gets obvious and its far too much to ask of one player.

Whether Shelbourne would have done better with Ndo in the side or not is immaterial because I seriously doubt they would have won the game.

Slash/ED

Yeah but if he's getting on the ball and finding space it will improve the games of the other mid fielders. Even if that one change wouldn't have turned around a 4-1 scoreline, that would be some tall order, it would have given us a better chance in the match and we could have done ourselves justice.

Kingp35

Slash/ED wrote:

Yeah but if he's getting on the ball and finding space it will improve the games of the other mid fielders. Even if that one change wouldn't have turned around a 4-1 scoreline, that would be some tall order, it would have given us a better chance in the match and we could have done ourselves justice.

Totally agree with this. Jivin you gotta realise the whole problem with shels last night was their inability to keep the ball and pass it around. When the defence won the ball they had nobody to pass to, were put under pressure and so the only option was to play a long ball up the pitch. This simply meant that Steau got the ball and came straight on the attack again. It was the story of the game.

You need players who have the ability to play "football". The midfield shels put out last night did not have this abilty. they are hard working players but none of them have the skills to stroke the ball around, hold it up and frustrate the opposition. Ndo would have helped. He would have given the an outlet, held the ball up to bring more players into the game, created space, offered a real attacking threat and he had a cool head on his shoulders to relieve the pressure without belting the ball up the pitch.

This is the problem with Irish teams, they dont have the ability to pass the ball around and frustrate the opposition which is vital in away european games. Fenlon got it wrong and he should hold his hand up and accept that. I just feel it was a big opportunity losy for shels. Im saying Ndo would have meant shels didnt lose the game but he certainly would have given them a better chance.

eirebhoy

I said before Ndo and Fleming came on that if Ndo came on he'd be booed as the Romanians seemed mental. I was suprised not to hear anything from the crowd though. Obviously missed it.

Jivin Turkey

Kingp35 wrote:

Totally agree with this. Jivin you gotta realise the whole problem with shels last night was their inability to keep the ball and pass it around. When the defence won the ball they had nobody to pass to, were put under pressure and so the only option was to play a long ball up the pitch. This simply meant that Steau got the ball and came straight on the attack again. It was the story of the game.

You need players who have the ability to play "football". The midfield shels put out last night did not have this abilty. they are hard working players but none of them have the skills to stroke the ball around, hold it up and frustrate the opposition. Ndo would have helped. He would have given the an outlet, held the ball up to bring more players into the game, created space, offered a real attacking threat and he had a cool head on his shoulders to relieve the pressure without belting the ball up the pitch.

This is the problem with Irish teams, they dont have the ability to pass the ball around and frustrate the opposition which is vital in away european games. Fenlon got it wrong and he should hold his hand up and accept that. I just feel it was a big opportunity losy for shels. Im saying Ndo would have meant shels didnt lose the game but he certainly would have given them a better chance.

I fully understand.

I just think you need more than a single outlet. It gets obvious who you are going to look for all the time, and at the rate Shels were passing last night countless balls would be intercepted on the way to Ndo, or from Ndo, and then Shels could be caught with men out of position. If Ndo and Hoolohan played they might have been able to hold it up better, but you are putting a lot of faith in a single player who cant seem to make the team anyway.

In the game at Tolka he probably should have played. They were at home and they should have given it a go. I just really think, particularly after watching the first leg, they were doomed last night regardless.

Slash/ED

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I fully understand.

I just think you need more than a single outlet. It gets obvious who you are going to look for all the time, and at the rate Shels were passing last night countless balls would be intercepted on the way to Ndo, or from Ndo, and then Shels could be caught with men out of position. If Ndo and Hoolohan played they might have been able to hold it up better, but you are putting a lot of faith in a single player who cant seem to make the team anyway.

In the game at Tolka he probably should have played. They were at home and they should have given it a go. I just really think, particularly after watching the first leg, they were doomed last night regardless.

Weather true or not if you dont play your best team what chance have you got?

Ndo only gave the ball away once by my count last night and that was from a great cross that Crowe was slow to react too. That he can't get his game for us is an inditement on the manager, not him.

KdjaCL

Slash/ED wrote:

Ndo only gave the ball away once by my count last night and that was from a great cross that Crowe was slow to react too. That he can't get his game for us is an inditement on the manager, not him.

So true at 0-0 you hadnt lost but didnt need to try to win the game with 2 up front, 1 up with a 5 man mid would have done the job, as you would have created chances. Doesnt Fenlon watch CL games?


As i said i dont think you would have won in a footballing match against them but you could still have nicked a goal beaten them by simply not letting them score. But Fenlon had other ideas.


kdjac

Jonny Arson

TBH lads when Weso and Ndo were on Steaua were taking it easy.... any team would have played better football at that point.

We needed Weso and Joey on at half time. They were our ammunition but they were not used. I don't believe both of them were completely match fit but screw it, were in the match at half time and we needed a goal, we had nothing to lose with bringing them on....... why Nutsy why?

Töpher

No denying we lost to the better team, but granting them 3 easy goals didn't help! Ah well, that's football afterall, maybe next time (notice I didn't say next year! :eek: )!!

Ah well, our pride as a nation rests of Cork, best of luck! (No pressure, no pressure at all Rcio ).

thejollyrodger

Maybe we can push for UEFA Cup but either way Nutsy should really be planning and preparing next season for Champions League. It means winning the league next year and thats going to be no easy task. Especailly with CCFC form.

One thing lacking from all this is any sort of debate on the future of Irish soccer. Im talking about the over competitiveness of school boy soccer and lack of technical skill Irish players have. This is something that could be addressed more so than anything else (since it costs less money!).

KdjaCL

thejollyrodger wrote:

One thing lacking from all this is any sort of debate on the future of Irish soccer. Im talking about the over competitiveness of school boy soccer and lack of technical skill Irish players have. This is something that could be addressed more so than anything else (since it costs less money!).

Your failures do not represent the league or the countrys schoolboy system, Hoolahan is one of the most comfortable irish players i have ever seen with the ball at his feet either right or left foot.

Fahey another sublime player with vision and skill, O Flynn and Callaghan, O Brien , the list of El players could go on. But lets move up Robbie Keane Duff, O Shea, Finnan, Reid they all played schoolboy in ireland.


So umm your point is based on your failures, ireland has one of the best schoolboy systems in the world and has no problems it constantly creates superb football talent. Watch the Milk Cup on BBC this week to see the rest of the world.



kdjac

Slash/ED

I disagree. While there are exceptions we, and Britain too who have the same problems, are generally technically inferior than the continental sides, even the poorer ones. We may produce world class players but that is generally the case and alot is down to the schoolboys, they play too competitive too early. We should learn from the Dutch.

thejollyrodger

I dont know if I can go along with any of that KdjaC. Fair enough we produce some good players, Keano, Robbie and Duffer. But those players are largely result of the English PL and have little to thank the school boy level.

Roy Keane often gives ou that he wasnt even taught simple things like positions when he played in Ireland. Thats pretty pathetic TBF. RMK is a great player but he relies more on his physical attributes and mental attribues that technical ability (as opposed to say ZiZu)

Robbie is a great player but technically he is probably one of the most infurating players we have. He still plays football on the pitch like he does on the school yard. If he grew up in the Nederland he would be a great striker.

Andy Reid spent most of his time trying to hit the lamp post with the football and when you see him play its like he is a one man trick.

Duffer is probably one of the few players who is truely world class from a technical point of view.

Shelbourne gave it their all last night, but it was technical ability that let us down. We have some good players but not enough to play football for the 90 minutes. I blame the underage system.

I think we have at best a very average school boy system that is overally competitve with little focus on technical ability and knowledge of the game.

Draupnir

the reason irish players who dont reach the top level are so poor technically is because of the shìte coaches training anyone who doesnt go abroad.

95% of schoolboy and youth coaches in this country probably have an A grade FAI coaching badge at best.

Anyone who has been on one of the FAI coaching courses will know the ridiculously low level of coaching ability needed to get one of those.

Its a shame really, some of the kids I played with who never made it had much more ability than some of the kids i played with that did.

KdjaCL

Slash/ED wrote:

I disagree. While there are exceptions we, and Britain too who have the same problems, are generally technically inferior than the continental sides, even the poorer ones.

No offence Slash but Steaua are gonna get murdered in the CL if they get to the group stages , will 11 gifted indivaudual players help them in any way? or would a solid back four with 2 Dms who actualy have discipline help?


Dunno why people go on about players with super skill means **** all if they dont pass or actually contribute to a team.

I dont know if I can go along with any of that KdjaC. Fair enough we produce some good players, Keano, Robbie and Duffer. But those players are largely result of the English PL and have little to thank the school boy level.

And so do Romania have *some* good players if they had more they wouldnt be 3rd in their group in WC. Or playing CL qualifiers.

Irish schollboys like Crumlin Utd and Cherry Orchard have constantly created good players. Why else would every englsih team have an irish based scout who watches these players week in week out.

I would understand your point of view a lot more if ONE player on the shels 11 came tru your youth setup, but none have so the rest of the countries setup is bad when you as the best club in the country have a poor youth setup is a bit petty in trying to offload the blame to others. Especially when the others in question have passed on 19 of the current full irish team , the entire under 21 and well after that they all schoolboys.

Shelbourne gave it their all last night, but it was technical ability that let us down.

OMG that is nonsense, 55th minute Cahill got down the wing and played it back to Crawley who crossed 1st time , Baker outjumped everyone and headed narrowly wide, was not doing that again down to lack of ability? I mean that was their weak spot, 11 maradonas wouldnt make a hell of difference if you cant cross a ball.


kdjac

Slash/ED

KdjaC wrote:

No offence Slash but Steaua are gonna get murdered in the CL if they get to the group stages , will 11 gifted indivaudual players help them in any way? or would a solid back four with 2 Dms who actualy have discipline help?

Dunno why people go on about players with super skill means **** all if they dont pass or actually contribute to a team.

Yes but the point is if we had a better structure in place we'd produce better players who as well as being naturally good would be far more comfortable on the ball making them better players. Having 11 technically good players doesnt make you automatically better than another team obviously, just the way our schoolkids are brought up almost trains the skill out of them except in the exceptional cases which luckily for us there are, atm, plenty of.

I just think we could do better and base our system on that of the Dutch or other continental countries.

KdjaCL

This have been said before imo the structure is near perfect all we need is the best players to start coming from El schoolboy teams (6 pats kids gone onto to youth international sides) EL sides have only recently in the last 10 years took U12 to 16 seriously. When they add to the already superb production line the EL instead of the PL/Div 1 will benefit.

But the onus is on the clubs to match the likes of Crumlin Utd and Cherry orchard, Stella etc:

The Milk cup on BBC interactive all this week watch it and see how far behind we are in terms or technical ability at a young age. (which isnt far possibly ahead in some respects).


kdjac

thejollyrodger

OMG :eek: I cant belive what Im reading !!!

I wouldnt call our underage setup world class. If it were so Genesis wouldnt have ordered the massive Technical Plan (which Bonner is making a pigs dinner of but thats another post).

The dutch system is far better. The only gripe I have is everyone who goes through it looks like a clone. They all learn the same tricks and its looks all a bit going through the motions for my liking. It is still class though. Just look at Barca and the amount of Nederland player that have played there.

Technical ability isnt everything in football but its a lot of it. Most top teams rely on players with outstanding technical ability to win a game. Its the best football to watch as opposite to a workman like performance.

The milk cup is good but seems a bit too competitive. Like do the kids learn much there or is it just another meaningless competition ?

KdjaCL

thejollyrodger wrote:

The dutch system is far better. The only gripe I have is everyone who goes through it looks like a clone. They all learn the same tricks and its looks all a bit going through the motions for my liking. It is still class though. Just look at Barca and the amount of Nederland player that have played there.


The milk cup is good but seems a bit too competitive. Like do the kids learn much there or is it just another meaningless competition ?

Your contradicting your own point there, all the great Dutch players who came tru the great Dutch system all came tru the professional clubs youth systems or to be more exact Ajax`s. Thats not schoolboy training thats business, create the player sell the player. Ajax have spent something like 11 million on their youth setup over the last 15 years and god knows how much they made off it. (€65 million off the 95 team alone :eek: )

70% of good Dutch players have been in that youth setup kinda like Man Utds may not make it at Ajax but 100 grand here and there adds up and the players usually move on to other clubs and complete their training.

So again back to the El clubs youth system which isnt really that good, how long have Shels had an U12 to 16 setup with paid coaches?

Pats is running about 4 years with one coach who gets paid in beer

How many FULL international players have played u12 to 16 with El clubs?
How many with Crumlin Utd? Thats case in point IMO the best irish players have all played Schoolboy in this country.
Given
Carr Dunne Cunningham Harte
Duff, Roy Keane, Reid, Flood
Keane Elliot

Thats a decent 11 who all came tru the Schoolboy system, did i mention we currently top of our WC group with only 1 english player getting a game regulary?


Milk cup is the best tournament of its kind for that age,
Yesterdays results , as you can see the big boys take it serious enough to send over teams.
Thursday's Premier semi-final results - Barcelona 2-1 Manchester United; Chelsea 2-2 Porto (Chelsea won 5-4 on penalties)

Thursday's Junior semi-final results: - Hearts 0-0 Lyngby (Lyngby won 5-4 on penalties); CSKA Moscow 1-0 Crewe Alexandra



Kdjac

_blank_

thejollyrodger, you posted this at 13.59 yesterday, in an already nine page thread, making no reference to anything it mentions in the previous nine pages...

thejollyrodger wrote:

There is a excellent thread about the state of irish soccer. ITs at
http://shelbournefcchat.100megs35.com/chat/viewtopic.php?t=3750

...then stayed quiet on the subject for, oh, five and a bit hours, when you posted this.

thejollyrodger wrote:

One thing lacking from all this is any sort of debate on the future of Irish soccer. Im talking about the over competitiveness of school boy soccer and lack of technical skill Irish players have. This is something that could be addressed more so than anything else (since it costs less money!).

Incidentally, the thread appeared on ShelsWeb at 11.17am yesterday, in that thread you claim that you "couldn't be arsed" to post on the subject, and fair enough, you only posted once on it, alas in here you post on a subject that you "couldn't be arsed about" three more times, stating :

thejollyrodger wrote:

OMG :eek: I cant belive what Im reading !!!

About a subject you "couldn't be arsed about" WTF?

thejollyrodger wrote:

I wouldnt call our underage setup world class. If it were so Genesis wouldnt have ordered the massive Technical Plan (which Bonner is making a pigs dinner of but thats another post).

Yes, the thread on ShelsWeb where you read it.

Now, please, have you an original thought in your body?

And don't bother replying to me with a pathetic PM like you did the other night, why not reply in public, or maybe someone could come along and reply for you, you seem good at regurgitating other people's ideas.

thejollyrodger

SeanSouth. Dont get all ratty becuase I told you where to go. I sent you that PM because I didnt like the stuff you posted about me earlier. :mad:

Some of us are working and dont have time to respond all the time

thejollyrodger

I dont think I am contradicting myself. My point is I think the dutch system is better than the irish system becuase of the players holland has produced to date are better in a footballing sense.

They are generally a better standard of player than what has been produced by Ireland. Holland has been more successful than Ireland in football to date - Dutch clubs have done better than Irish clubs and likewise with their national team.

I used the term schoolboy but I really should have said all underage level. That including anything that the clubs might run. A typical dutch player (bar one or two irish players) is by and large technically better hence the football structure is better IMO.

We rely on other attributes that are not strictly football and can beat any team but its rarely by strictly footballing means. We are defintely a very good team internationally but all the players play with English clubs and we are piggy backing on the English PL.

The Milk Cup is a great competition but it is only a competition and by and large meaningless. The various clubs probably spend more time on teaching the players skills and knowledge of the game than Irish (or English) sides do.

KdjaCL

But the dutch is system isnt dutch! Its run by professional clubs with the sole intention of creating players to sell.

Of course a team with 50k a home game and average 5 million a year in transfer sales is going to have a far better structure than the rest of the world. They have been doing it for years but not for footballing reasons its a fish farm but with kids instead of fish

But in Ireland its amateur teams run by blokes down the road who consistently create international players, what we need is our clubs to fund their own schoolboy schemes and ADD to the already superb production line in place. We need paid coaches running Pats Shels Bohs under 12 to 16. People who have the nescessary badges. But thats the failing of the clubs not the FAI or present system.

Ireland are close to having a full 11 who played schoolboy in this country and all are irish players, Holland will never achieve that. (not a racist post just dont like seeing foreign players playing for ireland to further their own **** careers. )


kdjac

Kingp35

I agree with everything thejollyrodger and Slash/ED are saying. I played schoolboy football since I was 11 years old. Only recently have I started playing senior soccer as I took a break for college.

I can safely say that coaching in this country is diabolical. There is no emphasis on developing football skills at all. Its all about getting your place on the team and winning games. Thats it. The coaches do not spend time teaching you how to pass the ball, how to hold up teh ball, how to create space for yourself, how to cover a position etc. Its all fitness training and then play some training games and thats it. If your a naturally good player you will do well. If your not then you wont because schollboy teams do not try and develope players they simply use the ones they have to try and win games.

The naturally good players such as Keane and Duff do well but I bet you they learned most of their skills from playing ball on the street with thier mates. Are schoolboy coaching is an absolute disgrace. Simply look around the Eircom league and you will see that. KdjaC I wonder how much experience you actually have with Irish underage soccer. You seem to be focusing your attention on the Irish National team and players that play in the PL. they are the exception. The whole point of this argument is how we can improve the level of the EL and the average player has very little techical skill at all.

I did an FAI coaching course and got the A grade badge and it was very very easy to get. They based alot of it on fitness work and stretching which is well and good but very little on skills. This really disappointed me because not only did i wnat to learn ways to help other players develope skills I also wanted to develope my own.

We have one of the worst underage systems in Europe. All the top ranking people around the EL agree on this. Something needs to be done. The only person who is really trying to change things is Brian Kerr and he needs to be given alot of credit for it. One point I agree with KdjaC on is that EL teams need to start focusing on finding the younger players too and getting in coaches to help them develope footballing skills and not focus on winning leagues. At the end of the day who cares if your team wins and under-15 or under-16 league title. It doesnt matter. All coaching and underage teams should be geared towards producing top quality senior players. Once we get to under-18 then try and instill a winning mentality in payers and focus on winning competitions but until then focus and skills skills and more skills.

The EL will never improve to the level of CL group stages unless they start putting a coaching structure in place to train players and make them the best they can possibly be. We are so far behing other countries it is not right. Something needs to be done now

KdjaCL

The naturally good players such as Keane and Duff do well but I bet you they learned most of their skills from playing ball on the street with thier mates. Are schoolboy coaching is an absolute disgrace. Simply look around the Eircom league and you will see that.

Dont know where you made that connection, but case in point is that 11 of our full international team have played schoolboy over here. There are some superb clubs who i have mentioned above. The El needs to be able to compete with these in creating international players at at U21 and full level atm there is none i know of who have played schoolboy with an El club and played for international teams. Crumlin Utd have 4, Cherry orchard have 3.

The EL will never improve to the level of CL group stages unless they start putting a coaching structure in place to train players and make them the best they can possibly be. We are so far behing other countries it is not right. Something needs to be done now

To compare our structure with the Dutch(ajax) is ludicrous as thats a production line created just to sell players for profit. We have a pop of 5 million with gates avg 1500, Cl football is a dream mate. yet our international team is just outside top 10 in the world.

And funny that the Dutch thing is called Soccer 7s which takes players at 5 years + plays them in a league of 7 a side with emphasis on touch control and fun. You see if in every park tues thurs and sat. This is running a few years over here, and has been very succesful.

Odd my son plays in one of those teams :eek:

Oh and i have that badge too and i played for Neilstown Rangers, and Clondalkin Celtic at schoolboy level.


kdjac

Kingp35

KdjaC wrote:

Dont know where you made that connection, but case in point is that 11 of our full international team have played schoolboy over here. There are some superb clubs who i have mentioned above. The El needs to be able to compete with these in creating international players at at U21 and full level atm there is none i know of who have played schoolboy with an El club and played for international teams. Crumlin Utd have 4, Cherry orchard have 3.

This is true but im not talking about the international side. Thats what 22 players out of all Irish players. Im talking about Irish players in general especially those who play in the EL. The players in the EL are not technically good players at all and this is because of coaching. We have the odd exception to the rule such as Wes Houlihan but shels were living proof that Irish sides cant play "football" they are simply hard working. I totally agree with you that EL clubs need to start putting more attention on developing young players.

To compare our structure with the Dutch(ajax) is ludicrous as thats a production line created just to sell players for profit. We have a pop of 5 million with gates avg 1500, Cl football is a dream mate. yet our international team is just outside top 10 in the world.

Im not comparing it with the dutch structure im comparing it with ALL other European structures and we are way behind. And im basing this on the players we produce that play in our national league. Not the odd players playing in the PL. Again the low attendances are in direct relation to the poor league standard of play. If you have good football and teams doing well then you will getbigger attendances. To improve the standard we need bettre coaching infrastructures

And funny that the Dutch thing is called Soccer 7s which takes players at 5 years + plays them in a league of 7 a side with emphasis on touch control and fun. You see if in every park tues thurs and sat. This is running a few years over here, and has been very succesful.

This is a start but how good are the coaches who operate these leagues?

Oh and i have that badge too and i played for Neilstown Rangers, and Clondalkin Celtic at schoolboy level.

If you have the badge you will know what im talking about when it comes to achieving the badge

Töpher

Just to add a bit about the match here.

UEFA are investigating reports about the racist chanting towards Joey ndo and Curtis Flemming, and missile throwing. Players were hit with objects while on the bench, and a brick was hurled at Alan Reynolds and Colin Hawkins.

The date set for this is 18th August, which is 1 week after the 1st leg of QR3, and 1 week before leg 2. So it is unlikely to see anything more than a fine, if that. Ideally I'd love to see Steaua thrown out and Rosenborg handed the spot for the winners of their tie in the group stages.

Like Inter last year, they could be made play a list of games behind closed doors which would be good punishment for the supporters. They could also hand the game to Shelbourne 3-0 like also happened with Inter, but I'd rather see Rosenborg go through, as progressing like that is not what I want to see (plus, we need to focus on the league! ).

Be interesting to see what happens anyways.