Touchy subject - Kilkenny, city or not?

Flukey

Now I know it has its charter and its cathedral and the pride of its people, but can you really call it a city? I have a good friend from Kilkenny, and I am always slagging her about it, calling it a village. OK it is not a village, but it is not very big. Let's look at some of the evidence. When you are driving towards somewhere like Cork or Dublin or Galway, you know a long time beforehand that you are getting near them. For miles beforehand you start seeing the satellite towns, the build up of industry and other infrastructure, advertisements, suburbs etc. etc. You know a long time before you get there that you are coming towards a city. When you approach a small country town, you see loads of green fields and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you see the nameplate and you are in the town. Coming into Kilkenny is a lot more like that than the previous characteristics I've given. Right until you get there, you would hardly know you were approaching it.

Then there is the actual size of the place. It is small. From the castle at one end, a short walk brings you down to Dunnes Stores or the Smithwicks Brewery, which is basically the other end of Kilkenny. There are no real large citylike buildings in it. It doesn't have the feel of the city. There are lots of towns around the country that are bigger than it, that would not be regarded as a being a city.

It may have a Cathedral as I said, but then so has Longford and it is not a city. It may have its charter, but in those days it would not take something very large to be regarded as being a city, so it is outdated.

Don't get me wrong, I love the place. I have friends from there and have spent some good times there. The fact it is so small and compact is part of its charm. It is a lovely town, but that is it, it's a town, not really a city. It has a lot of lively things going on, like the arts festival and the comedy festival, but let's be realistic, calling it a city is the biggest joke of all.

Now come on, put your pride aside for a moment and look it at in the terms I've laid out and can you really say it deserves city status? If it makes you feel any better, Waterford, even if it does take a bit off Kilkenny soon, still isn't much of a city in terms or its size either. I don't know it as well as I know Kilkenny, but from what I have seen, it is small too. It is not even big enough to have something on both sides of the river. Even Kilkenny has that, even if it is only a street or two. So come on, be honest, forgetting about its charter and cathedral, compared to the cities and other large towns in Ireland and using the characteristics we expect in one, can you really call Kilkenny a city?

chillywilly

yes kilkenny city is a city

Flukey

You have to make a better case than that. In fact, you've made no case at all.

brettmirl

Indeed. And Flukey, there are two Cathederals in Kilkenny. St Mary's and St Canice's.

As for your arguement about size. Surely in a country with such a small population, it's all relative? There is a vast difference when comparing the population of Dublin city to Cork city and so on.

As for infastructure on the way into Kilkenny, I feel that the IDA and relevant government depts have overlooked Kilkenny for far too long. There has not been a big factory or major employer in Kilkenny for years. We were constantly overlooked while industry was developed in Carlow and Waaaaaaterford.

Anyways, we had this whole "debate" before - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=198270&highlight=city

Also:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA37Y2001S10.html

(7) This section is without prejudice to the continued use of the description city in relation to Kilkenny, to the extent that that description was used before the establishment day and is not otherwise inconsistent with this Act.

Lump

Kilkenny was the capital of Ireland back in the day. It has a castle and 2 cathedrals, it's historically a city. So yes it's a fúcking city.

John

daithi

Im afraid im far to patriotic to ever consider the notion that kilkenny is not a city, so i will bow out of this discussion, as it would be pointless.
As to whats in kilkenny, It is developing a bit better now a days due to a bit of investment from the government, I also mirror the feelings mick_irl expressed about the IDA, kilkenny has been greatly discriminated against because of the proximity of waterford, and as such the majority of the industry is home grown, which kilkenny is also proud of.
Anyway as to current development you may not be aware of, there are 2 development up john street end of the town one at the mart and one at what is about to become the old train station, both of these developments are reported to be about the 100 million euro mark. in addition to this there is the extension to the ringroad which will in 2007 nearly encircle the city, this will of course encourage industry to develop at the outskirts.

As to the lack of industry at the approach, and lack of large, city like buildings, these are in fact discouraged to try and maintain the medieval name and feel of the city. Purcells inch, which is a good sized industrial estate on the dublin approach, is in fact hidden behind a hill, and has quite a long approach road, surrounded by quite a large green area, also hebron industrial estate is positioned in such a way that the ringroad extension will juntion with it, nobody would ever know it was there unless you had to go there, there has also been the addition of a business park onto hebron in the last few years.
There is obviously nothing on the scale of the IDA industrial estate on the cork road in waterford, but thats the IDA for you, if that pace were to close down, a lot of waterford would be enemployed.

Regarding waterford, it does have more of a city on the cork road approach, the bypass will improve things from the kilkenny side, and you should see the addition of some industry around this over the next few years, hence the reason why waterford wish to grab this land.

Kilkenny has very strict planning codes about building height, nothing is allowed to be built higher than the natural skyline, and anything that is built, has to be hidden from sight of other medieval buildings, or has to have a certain look about it. A lot of things, including shop fronts, etc are protected and they are all forced into having a certain look, Neon Lighting for signs is supposed to be banned, but if you look closely, it can be found in a couple of places.
The way the centre of kilkenny looks is not ever going to change, too much tourism depends on it, the lack of industry is the fault of the IDA, and the lack of housing estates adn teh likes is down to good town planning, there are quite a few large estates, that are hidden from view, with a single enterance, exampes are the weir, and i suppose everything out the johnswell road, Very well hidden, and completely away from major roads.

EKRIUQ

Nope, Kilkenny is not a city by european standards or even by the tidy towns committees, Kilkenny is just a big town:(

djpaul

BingoBongo wrote:

Nope, Kilkenny is not a city by european standards or even by the tidy towns committees, Kilkenny is just a big town:(

Kilkenny IS a CITY. (in our hearts anyway, F**k everyone else) As long as
I've lived here and older people have said it's ALWAYS been "Kilkenny City".

What's wrong with people?? It's like the Hurling, "anyone but kilkenny in the final".


:mad:

Dac51

Flukey wrote:

If it makes you feel any better, Waterford, even if it does take a bit off Kilkenny soon, still isn't much of a city in terms or its size either. I don't know it as well as I know Kilkenny, but from what I have seen, it is small too. It is not even big enough to have something on both sides of the river.

Waterford doesn't have much on the north side of the river as it cannot really expand past the border with County Kilkenny. Therefore coming from the north side of the city and crossing the bridge you are in the city centre. This is a problem that Waterford City Council are trying to overcome at the moment and they have proposed an extension of the city boundary on the north side of the River Suir.

For someone travelling through Waterford it may seem a bit on the small side as the main road through the City runs roughly in a north - south direction. However due to it's inability to expand northwards it has expanded westwards and more dramatically eastwards. Passing through the city you wouldn't notice this. Recently I had to do a round trip from the IDA industrial estate in the west of the city to Ballinakill Downs in the east and clocked up just over 10 miles.

Another factor to remember is satellite towns. A lot of people I know who grew up in Waterford City are looking at buying houses outside the city due to prices etc. So now you have satellite towns such as Portlaw, Tramore, Dunmore East and even as far as Kilmacthomas.

Finally just to give an idea of the size of Waterford look at the population - 45,000 in the last census with a further 8,000 in Tramore and another 2,000 in Waterford suburbs that are part of County Kilkenny.

Next time you are in Waterford have a proper look around instead of saying we don't deserve to be a city (typical Dubliner attitude - only four cities in Ireland Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick).

PS: Even though I am from Waterford I think Kilkenny deserves city status just as any other Irish city does. It has been granted this status through Royal Charter. Local Government Acts don't mean much to me.

ecksor

This was discussed to death before.

brettmirl

ecksor wrote:

This was discussed to death before.

As i have mentioned!

Plus the jackeen (Flukey), thinks that Kilkenny extends from the castle to Smithwicks. Laughable really.

Surprised he managed to venture beyond the pale and make it back in one piece.

Cabaal

mick_irl wrote:

Surprised he managed to venture beyond the pale and make it back in one piece.

hmm I don't know, I heard he lost a leg

Flukey

Now lads, come on, I know Kilkenny better than that and I like the place. I've had good nights in Bollards and Tynans and other places there. It is a great place. I've always enjoyed my visits to it. It is just too small to be regarded as a city.

When us "outsiders" say it isn't a city, we are not knocking it, so you shouldn't take it that way or as some sort of slur on Kilkenny. It may be a city by medieval standards, but we've come a long way since then and cities are much bigger now. Ok the Castle to the Brewery isn't the extent of it, but it does constitute the main part of it. Go on past the Castle and you are already on the way out. There is more on that side of the Nore than on the other side. That it hasn't got as much investment and development as it should isn't its fault, but nevertheless that is where it is at. Anyway, it is fine how it is. Plus, you are lucky in that it doesn't have the kinds of problems cities have. Like I said, that is part of its charm.

As to there being only 4 cities in Ireland, Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick, well there is a lot can be said about that. Officially we do have Waterford and Kilkenny, and of course Derry, Belfast and Armagh. Newry and Lurgan have recently been given city status too. Then again, Dun Laoghaire is bigger than Limerick and more populated, as is Tallaght. If Kilkenny is a city, then you have a lot of big towns up there that should be too, like Athlone or Clonmel or Sligo. Kilkenny sits well with them in the category of big town, and a very nice one at that.

mire

kilkenny is not a city - it is a big town - a beautiful, compact, vibrant and interesting place

it was never the capital of ireland

it was never a city under the Republic of Ireland

it has a town hall

it is small

lovely town though

Lump

Use some source to back up statements.

Kilkenny was the capital.

Kilkenny was founded in the 6th cent by St Canice, whose bust is located in Parliament St. It was the irish capital during the medieval ages but after the English settled in Ireland, Dublin became more important and became the capital, thanks to it's easy proximity to Britian.

Also

Linky: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Kilkenny

And I'll just have this:

Someone who knows about this wrote:

Kilkenny (Irish: Cill Chainnigh) is the county seat of County Kilkenny, Ireland, with a population (including environs) of 20,735. The city is located on the River Nore and is the only city which is not tidal in the republic. It is also the only city in the republic which is not a county borough and so its administration is a "borough council" rather than "city council" as with the other cities. The city is also the only city of the republic which has neither a institute of technology nor university although National University of Ireland, Maynooth maintains an outreach center in the city. The city is famed for its history and night life.

AND ON AND ON AND ON.... Google Kilkenny as the capital, throws up a hell of a lot of results. I don't care what you lot say, it's a city. Now STFU :P
John

Hmm_Messiah

mire wrote:

kilkenny is not a city - it is a big town - a beautiful, compact, vibrant and interesting place

it was never the capital of ireland

it was never a city under the Republic of Ireland

it has a town hall

it is small

lovely town though

its a big town then a small lovely town ?

Kilkenny was a city historically when Ireland delcared itself a republic and remain so after wards
it WAS the capital of Ireland during the Confederation when an alternate government was put in place by irsh Catholics, the parliament buildings were on...Parliament Street.

it doesnt have a "town hall", it has a tholsel, and the officall address is City Hall, Kilkenny.

It indeed has two church seats, cathedrals, and is a charter (albeit because the King had a comfy stay here)


That recent leglisation tried to redefine it is no big surprise given its size comparative to other times, but it depends on how one understand sthe concept of city,

a large and densely populated urban area

it isn't built that it is a medieval city and will be always seen as such because of its history is..well stating the obvious.

maybe we should secede and become a republic

merlante

Flukey wrote:

As to there being only 4 cities in Ireland, Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick, well there is a lot can be said about that. Officially we do have Waterford and Kilkenny, and of course Derry, Belfast and Armagh.

Officially we have Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford as the cities of Ireland, in that order of population. These are the five largest urban centres in the republic. Dun Laoghaire is part of Dublin, as is Tallaght.

There is a big gap between the populations of the cities and those of the largest towns. The smallest city, Waterford, is 67% larger than the largest towns: Drogheda, Dundalk, Bray. (around 30,000 each) When you ignore towns in the Dublin commuter belt, Waterford is almost 150% larger than the largest towns: Kilkenny, Tralee, Sligo. (around 20,000 each)

Waterford has a poor profile in Dublin for purely political reasons. When you consider the more populated environs of Waterford (Tramore, etc.) and Galway's more generous city boundary, it can be seen that Galway is not much larger than Waterford, and in fact only overtook Waterford in population in the 80's. The point I'm trying to make is that despite what a 5 minute excursion into Waterford city centre might indicate, the five cities of the republic have not been chosen arbitrarily, and do actually correspond to comparably large population centres that serve as natural regional capitals.

As for Kilkenny being a city, the Local Government Act says that you can call it a city, but doesn't grant it the status. Still, Kilkenny has too much going for it to be getting upset about these sort of questions. It is one of the country's top destinations for weekend breaks and is a very picturesque and well provided for urban centre. There are other towns of a similar size which don't get a look in, in terms of profile, and despite talk of "Waterford getting everything," I think Kilkenny looks too nice and well maintained to hint at any kind of neglect.

OLDYELLAR

Yes Kilkenny city is infact wait for it A CITY :rolleyes:

daithi

Enough of this flame bait dammit.

Hmm_Messiah

Next Week : Is County Kilkenny Really a County?

brettmirl

lol @ Hmm_Messiah

Firetrap

I live in Kilkenny (not a native of the city, let alone the county) and I'd call it a city that feels like a big town. Mind you, there's something strangely impressive about seeing signposts for the City Centre

It's definitely less cosmopolitan than the other cities in Ireland. Des Bishop jokes about the amount of guys in check shirts in the place. It also doesn't have the shops that other large towns have. Heck, it doesn't even have a Tesco!!! The cinema only has 4 screens and half the films released in Ireland never get here. It doesn't have any particularly large industrial estates. But on the other side, it is a beautiful place. I love the old buildings and narrow streets (except when I'm stuck in traffic!)

brettmirl

Ah I see now. It all makes sense now.

You must have a charter and a catherdal(s) and/or a Tesco to qualify as a city.

ecksor

I used to be so proud that they wouldn't let McDonalds in.

Stephen

Not only did they let mcdonalds in, they let KFC in too as of this summer

Lump

A PIZZA HUT, A PIZZA HUT, KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN AND A PIZZA HUT.....

John

CyberMan

OLDYELLAR wrote:

Yes Kilkenny city is infact wait for it A CITY :rolleyes:

if kilkenny is a city why are there no factorys? why do kilkenny people come to work in WATERFORD CITY

OLDYELLAR

So if ya put a factory there , its a city that what yer saying is it? Having a factory now is the basis of a town becoming a city yea?

CyberMan

q: what do haemhorroids and kilkenny fans have in common?

A: they are both a complete pain in the hole and never seem to go away.

ecksor

You may post on boards.ie again in 5 days time.

Lump

HA HA HA Nice one Jerry.

Kilkenny does have factories btw.

John